Freethinker Posted April 1, 2004 Report Posted April 1, 2004 Originally posted by: sanctusSorry freethinker, I liked very much your arguments and your sarcasm, but it is really a pity you didn't bring the "real" proof of the uncertainity principle, that destroyed much of what you said before. Ah, I got that example out of "Schroedinger's Cat" if memory servers. It is one of the definitive books on QM. I don't know if your example can be proven with the inequality stated by the uncertainity principle, but as this principle applies to all operators ("mesurables", not just to momentum and position that is just how Heisenberg has done it!!) it might be possible.... Which is why I included mention of Zeno arrow paradox. It presented the concept of Uncertainty based on being able to know either an arrow's existence/ position or movement, but not both, some 2500 years ago. But I was not about to give a complete lecture on Uncertainity with mutiple examples and formulas.
rileyj Posted April 1, 2004 Report Posted April 1, 2004 "Please refrain from trying to use any more of the Argument Fallacies instead of ACTUAL FACTS." not trying to shift burden but I do ask the same of you. the point is, is that god can not be proven or disproved and simply put, you keep asking for evidence that cannot be presented. just like the id, ego and superego can not be proven but I’m sure you believe in that. there are many things in this world we accept by "faith" including many things in science. your are so set against there being a god that you are bias. NO ONE KNOWS and you can argue there is and others will argue there isn't, the point I keep trying to get across is that there are things that we can not explained away and I would also like the site where you got this? "Well? what FACTUAL EVIDENCE are you holding out "that has eluded all of mankind" that once and for all PROVES that a god exists? AGAIN I never said I had prove one way or the other. I am open to both possibilities. so please again don't argue points I did not make and take your own advice and stop shifting the burden of proof. cause I to took many philosophy courses and it won't work on me either
Freethinker Posted April 1, 2004 Report Posted April 1, 2004 Originally posted by: rileyj"Please refrain from trying to use any more of the Argument Fallacies instead of ACTUAL FACTS." not trying to shift burden but I do ask the same of you. the point is, is that god can not be proven or disproved I guess I should have been a little MORE specific: "Please refrain from trying to use THE SAME or any more of the Argument Fallacies instead of ACTUAL FACTS." I realize that the attempt to construct a logical argument is a challenge for many. You would make at least slight gains if you did not repeat the same error over again and again. NON-EXISTENCE CAN NOT BE PROVEN. Is this concept beyond your comprehenstion? Here try an example, you choose which one: Prove (X) does not exist! as a suggestion, you can substitute: Tooth FairyEaster BunnySanta Claus??? for (X) What you find EVERY TIME is that NON-EXISTENCE CAN NOT BE PROVEN[/size] Now, hopefully we will not have to waste more time beating this dead horse any more... and simply put, you keep asking for evidence that cannot be presented. OK, so you have nothing to prove your god (or the god you don't believe in???) exists. I can except that. just like the id, ego and superego can not be proven Well if you want to assert that god is nothing more than a term given to a sub-category for discussion purpose, then the anaology holds up. If someone wants to assert that a god is an intellegent agent that interacts with our physical existence, then your attempt at building an analogy is no better than your understanding of building a logical argument. but I’m sure you believe in that. there are many things in this world we accept by "faith" "Faith" especially when used in religious context, is something that is accepted when there are no facts to support it. e.g. "belief in a god is based on FAITH, not proof. " There is NOTHING I accept based on FAITH. including many things in science. This is a continual discussion in Science. It depends on how you define "faith". That there is an actual physical existence can not be PROVED. Causality can not be proved. ... If you want to reduce the discussion to absurdity we are all wasting our time. Just as Science has no value if we ignore Causality. However, if we use Faith in the context of this discussion, regarding Religious Beleifs, then Science REJECTS faith as a process of acceptance. your are so set against there being a god that you are bias. Amazing how much you know about what I think! Especially since you keep getting it wrong! I would ahve no problem with the existence of a god. I could relinquish my full acceptance of personal responsibility. I could blame God for things. I could do anything I want in this life because I could be born again at the last moment and have eternal rewards. Instead I feel strongly compelled to make the most positive out of THIS life. Yep, I'd be a pig in **** if there was ANY reason to accept a god belief! But I guess you know better! NO ONE KNOWS Perhaps not you, but others here have CLAIMED to HAVE PROOF of the existence of a god. Ask any Muslem here if they KNOW if there is a god. Ask most Christians. Most will claim that they DO KNOW. And like others here, will claim to have PROOF! the point I keep trying to get across is that there are things that we can not explained away Here we go again.... Is there even any reason to RY and ask for PROOF? It seems that the concept of
Tim_Lou Posted April 1, 2004 Report Posted April 1, 2004 im sry for not posting claims here....ok here, for the proof of god: (it was posted b4 by tinny, so i didnt mention it b4, ok, here take a look).http://www.modernsciencefindsgod.com/modern_science_finds_god.htm freethinker, you dont even know some basic explaination of some theoies on science (an example is the proof to uncertain principal), but you still believe in it (believe in QM). b4 you make a point in arugment of god, go read something about it, and understand what it says. there is no point if you dont know anything about god and still trying to deney it. in today's society, many people are believing in science w/out even understanding and know what its base on! it is as bad as the old days when people are trapped in bible! also, freethinker, plz dont post BIG replies here, its too long that people can hardly see other posts, hope you can shorten it or not using quotes. last thing, for the uncertain principal, i dont really know much and im confused by those proofs of it (thats why i ask freethinker to try to prove it). plz replies if someone really knows how this principal works, thx !. (i post a topic b4 for asking this principal, too bad no one replied and it became dead topic : ( )
IrishEyes Posted April 2, 2004 Report Posted April 2, 2004 <<<posted by:FreethinkerYet when any of religion's claims are shown to be lies, extensive Apologetic efforts kick in. All kinds of twists and obfuscation is invented to try and cover it upl New translations appear, trying to turn, thou shalt not kill, into thou shalt not murder because the obvious contradictions are finally too much to overcome by just telling people to shut up about it. >>> Ok, You'll have to pardon my lack of knowledge on how to correctly post. I suppose I probably should read up on it, so you can't call me stupid, but I'm going to ask that you just ignore any obvious mistakes I make in form and consider the content. , I'd like to hear about the religious claims that have been shown to be lies. Are you talking about Christianity specifically, or are you forming an umbrella over all religions? I've read a majority of your posts contained in this thread, and feel I must respond. I was once a skeptic also. I was also raised in a religious family, attended church many times a week, got 'saved' then baptized, the whole HOLY ROLLER thing. Then I started 'thinking' about TRUTH. What kind of a god would create this horrible planet? WHY would he allow suffering on such a grand scale? How could the Bible possibly be true? WHERE IS THE PROOF? I started out as a Christian, moved towards agnosticism, then found myself FIRMLY rooted in atheism. I will also point out that my life had gone through many changes. The absolute truths that I had been taught as a child (such as an absolute right and wrong) did not fit into the way I wanted to live my life. Now I'm not saying that I wanted to go out and commit murder (which most would label "WRONG"), but drinking and smoking, maybe even sex, were things I was interested in trying. Can I tell you how far those things were from the religion of my youth? My body as a temple would not accept drink, smoke or promiscuity, but if I refused to believe in a god, then I didn't have to worry if what I did was right or wrong. That's what it really boils down to. It's not really "I don't believe in God because you can't prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that He actually exists". The truth is probably a lot closer to "If there is a God, then I may have to answer some day for how I have lived my life". Don't knock the OP5 kid for his passionate beliefs. He may be young, and not as studied as you, but he is not afraid to state what he sees as truth. He also has a lot to learn about God, but that comes with time. OP5- I commend you for your efforts. And don't knock Tim either- he's not a Fundamentalist, but he is obviosuly searching for something more than Freethinker's dirty underwear stain. In case any were wondering- yes, I eventually gave up the charade and admitted that all of my agnostic, and later atheistic, proclamations, (while I once would have died defending them!) were actually just a very poor attempt to deny the reality of God. He puts in every person the knowledge of His existence. You can deny it, you can rail against it, you can demand "absolute proof", but in reality, you are just trying to justify your own choices. If there is a God (and there IS, my friends), then every single thing you have ever done, every word uttered, every thought thought, every single thing, will require an accounting some day. Doesn't it make you feel much better just to deny the existence of God, to say "I don't believe because you can show no concrete proof" than to think you will have to explain your sins to Him in the end? And as for religion or God being a crutch or just something to get poor fools through each day, that would imply that all of us believers are dumb and blind followers. I'm neither. I've tested the science, and seen the end result. Look what happened to the youth of this country when God was taken out of the public school system. I am not stupid. I am not ignorant. I am not a blind follower. I am a believer in God. Does that mean that I do not believe in any science? Not at all. I also
Tormod Posted April 2, 2004 Report Posted April 2, 2004 Originally posted by: Tim_Louim sry for not posting claims here....ok here, for the proof of god: (it was posted b4 by tinny, so i didnt mention it b4, ok, here take a look).http://www.modernsciencefindsgod.com/modern_science_finds_god.htm This is absolutely not a proof of God. I refuted several ofthe claims on this page in a different post. That page offers not a single proof. You have to take everything at face value. It is a progressive set of assumptions masked as truths, claiming support from most religions. (The fact that it was written by a Moslem does not seem to bother the Christians here, which is interesting). Whoever wrote that text knows absolutely nothing about relativity theory. As for it being the "absolute" theory, well, read up on "theories of everything" and you will find that relativity theory is just a part of a bigger puzzle. It does not explain what we observe in quantum physics. Tormod
Tormod Posted April 2, 2004 Report Posted April 2, 2004 Originally posted by: IrishEyesIf there is a God (and there IS, my friends), then every single thing you have ever done, every word uttered, every thought thought, every single thing, will require an accounting some day. Doesn't it make you feel much better just to deny the existence of God, to say "I don't believe because you can show no concrete proof" than to think you will have to explain your sins to Him in the end? Welcome, IrishEyes. This is a science and technology website. In science, we tend to bring up a hypotheses, and then try to prove it or falsify it. Saying "if" followed by a resolute "and there IS" violates every rule in my philosophy book. I will let this thread continue even though it is way off topic now, since it is turning into a flame war where one side (basically Freethinker and myself) continually ask people for proof, while the rest of you run scared when Freethinker opens his foul bag of anticreationism arguments. I find it interesting, too, that noone responds to my posts (which have none of Freethinker's strong language), but instead keep hunting for Freethinker and try to show how wrong he must be. That tells me this is not about whether God exists at all (which was the point of this thread), but that this kind of discussions do not belong at Hypography. Face it, people, in Freethinkeryou have met a die-hard skeptic who knows how to argue creationists. As you must have realized by now, he will not be easily subdued. He asks for facts, but youoffer him none. If anyone else has nothing to contribute to this discussion but variations on "but he DOES exist" I suggest they find another forum where creationism is not discussed but simply accepted in good faith. Tormod
scubawuba Posted April 2, 2004 Report Posted April 2, 2004 basically i feel there is someone or something out there. it might not be god. but i believe it is. i believe in heaven. a few weeks ago i had this guest speaker guy in my reeligious education class that explained how some religion are basically a bunch of bull ####. of of the religions basically mixes up the bible and makes the scriptures have differant meanings. but yeah. i dunno. i belong to the roman catholic church. i meanyeah.. that stuff could be a bunch biosness but i dunno. there are many people out there that say the dont believe in anything. that is totally not true because then they'd think life is just one huge dream. and i havent heard of anyone that is like that. Some people say they dont belive there is any kind of god because there is no scientific proof. well i am sort of one of those people. but the more i think about it the more i feel that there is a god. i feel that when scientists do find proof that there is a god. that will be the last day of like for all of man kind. thats how i feel. i eamn. if god wanted us to have proof. he'd give us proof way back when. but i dunno. theat is just how i feel.
OpenMind5 Posted April 2, 2004 Author Report Posted April 2, 2004 U have meet more than a die hard skeptic in this forum...u also have meet a die hard believer! I would die for this cause of god anyday... I am young, i admit...probily to young for u to take me seriously...but I am not afraid to die...and I am not afraid to state my mind...or my belifes... Irisheyes...thank you for your support...Tormod, this whole post was me responding to your idea of bring the discussion here... Everyone has asked for proof...and that is how science is...PROOF this and PROOF that...the only proof i have for u is a really old book and my life...it isn't like u can say "hey god come down here and show these people" I wish it were that easy. I know i will alwasy believe...and thats me...if u chose not to that is fine...but i feel bad for those who don't, because my gods love is sooo great. I regret to inform u all that I have no tangable proof for u, I can tell u stories and everything...but where is the proof that he doesn't exsist? There is nothing that can be said or done to change my mind...yah i admit that makes me sound narrow minded, but i understand where all of you are coiming from... Freethinker, u are never firm footed and I like that, I wish you were on my side though... There have been tests done that see if anything "Powerful" or anything happens when u pray...the results were their is nothing...but many feel that this is because we can't measure GOD power! http://www.godlessgeeks.com/LINKS/GodProof.htmhttp://www.sollog.com/PROOF.shtmlhttp://www.angelfire.com/mt/montalk/conscious.htmlhttp://www.accessv.com/~rjchin/http://www.geocities.com/lauraa1639/proofofgod.htmhttp://www.isomedia.com/homes/phoefling/philos/prove_god.html Maybe this is some proof...or dead ends...visit them...and u decide... "It is hard to make non believers believe in anything that is not in there world...there white picket fence...only if u come in with a slug hammer and start destroying that fence...then they don't know where they belong...where there borders are..." I say god be with u all, and he will...wether u want him to be...and i say god bless u all as well...I know some of u may now go hay-wire case i am now beginnigng to preach, but i mean no harm...But the biggest proof I have is right here...me... I am Close your eyes...and think...is there more to this life...or is death the end...something we cannot see or have proof of also... I don't know what more to say... OP5
OpenMind5 Posted April 2, 2004 Author Report Posted April 2, 2004 Freethinker, u are never firm footed and I like that, I wish you were on my side though...
OpenMind5 Posted April 2, 2004 Author Report Posted April 2, 2004 Freethinker, u are never firm footed and I like that, I wish you were on my side though...*************I ment to say FreeThinker u are really firm footed and that i wished u were on my side...i didn't mean never
Freethinker Posted April 2, 2004 Report Posted April 2, 2004 Originally posted by: Tim_Louim sry for not posting claims here....ok here, for the proof of god: (it was posted b4 by tinny, so i didnt mention it b4, ok, here take a look).http://www.modernsciencefindsgod.com/modern_science_finds_god.htm I will break my replies up to keep each from being too long. But I will continue to quote in order to keep context. I have had a couple of questions asked of me here that did not show a specific reference and thus could not reply appropriately. Now as to you supposed PROOF. Submitting a URL only tells me YOU have no concept. You are not even willing to cut and paste specific examples while using the URL for verification only. So, what? Am I supposed to explain to the owner of the site why their claimed proofs are absurd and meaningless and then report when they have corrected their mis-information? Hardly! But I will show some of the absurdities so obvious on the site. Let's start with the opening line of the page supplied "There was a time when science seemed to be the enemy of religious belief – that time is no more!" It would have at least given the site SOME credibility if they had not so completely screwed up on their opening statement. The REALITY is that much of the earliest "scientific" efforts, and "scientists" were religious people driven by a desire to prove god thru investigation of the physical world. Such as the work of Claudius Ptolemy, who lived in the second century CE. In his great astronomical work, Almagest, Ptolemy presented a complete system of mathematical constructions that attempted to account for the observed motion of each heavenly body. Of course the ACTUAL movement of the solar system and stars violated the RELIGIOUS stances of flat earth and earthcentric systems. In De Revolutionibus, Copernicus, a religious person, tried to correct this and we have some of the earliest divergence between religion and factual science some 1,000+ years later. Thus REALITY is once more found to be quite different from the claims of religious historical revisionists such as this site. We find that originally Religion thought that Science would support it's claims and embraced it. It was LATER, as Science progressed and started to to make findings that exposed the ignorace of religious claims that the rift developed. Thus this very opening statement is COMPLETELY WRONG! So let's move to the first item on this site's list. "1. We now know according to the most widely accepted theories of cosmology that the physical universe we see today was created out of nothingness (meaning – no time, no space, and no matter)." OK class, what is the OBVIOUS error in this claim? Or perhaps more accurately, how many errors can you list in 30 sec? 1) "created" - fallacy of a priori2) "out of nothingness" - there is not a single "widely accepted theorie of cosmology" that claims a "nothingness" prior to the start of our physical existence. Not a SINGLE ONE! Times up! As this site fails to get either it's opening sentence correct nor it's first list item correct, I see little reason to waste any of our time pursuing it further. Now do you have an REAL support for your god claim?
Tormod Posted April 2, 2004 Report Posted April 2, 2004 I hate to be a moralist bore, but let's bring back the original post: Originally posted by: OpenMindFiveHey everyone! Ok, I was told that my discussion of God belonged in this section of the forum. So here it is… THE QUESTION/TOPIC: God! Is there a god? Is he the reason for existence? Is the bible correct? Is god a he or a she? What are your views on god? What experiences have you had? OK, I know this is a interesting and probably a hard topic…but I want to hear from everyone who views this post! I don’t care if you don’t have an opinion, then post the words.. “NO OPIONION” Real big… I want this to be a hot topic for everyone…I won’t post my views on the subject yet, not in the opening of a post…that will be later…and don’t feel weird about this…be proud of what you think…tell it to everyone…THANK YOU TO ALL WHO POST! OpenMindFive-(Aka-OP5) It is a good post, and it asks people for their opinion. It asks questions as to whether there is a god or not.OP5 asked for a hot topic (and man, didwe get one) . In light of this original post I think a lot of people who are posting in this thread are forgetting that this is a science forum, and that when people make claims, the clainsneed to be backed up by proof. The philosophy and humanities group is not in any way exempt from that. So let's make some ground rules here: 1) Stop posting lists of links without further comments. If you really want to list to sites, explain whateach site says and why it is important to this discussion (don't expect everyone else to read through an entire site looking for proof)2) Stop asking "why do you need proof"3) Stop saying "I just believe, so I don't need proof" (this is not a religious convention) Anyone breaking these rules will be violating the spirit of these forums and may be temporarily banned. Tormod
IrishEyes Posted April 2, 2004 Report Posted April 2, 2004 Tormud, saying there is no God violates every rule in my Bible, so I guess we're even, huh? Thanks for the welcome. I didn't realize what kind of site it was when I entered. I actually Googled my way in trying to find help with a mouse-trap car for my 6 homeschooled children. But there was no help to be found for their science project on this Science and Technology website. Instead, I found a group of psuedo-intellectuals debating the existence of the great "I AM", trying to pass off the theory of evolution as fact, and belittling people that acknowledge the existence of God and creation. Some have called Darwin a devout Christian, but I disagree. A belief that there is a God does not a Christian make. Adaptation is not evolution. Most Creationists will agree that God placed a the abiltiy to change and adapt to the environment within creatures so that they could survive in differing climates and circumstances. However, there are strict genetic limitations of adaptation within each created species. You can not keep dogs in a chicken coop and feed them nothing but corn and grains for 1,000,000 years and expect them to grow feathers and long beaks. Will they eat the corn and grains? Probably. Might their bodies grow accustomed to the new diet? Probably. Will they start crowing every morning at sunset after a milliion years? I highly doubt it. But hey, it's possible, right Tormud? Let me know in a million years, ok?Do you understand the first and second laws of Thermodynamics? To me, from a scientific standpoint, an understanding of these two points will point you right to a Creator. First, nothing (matter or energy) is currently being created anywhere in the universe. Coupled with the FACT that the universe does indeed exist today (I don't think THAT is in question, is it, Tormud?), and the Second LofTD, that proves the earth is essentially running down and therefore can not be eternal, begs the question - How did we get here if not for a CREATOR, someone that created the scientific laws that you live by? Freethinker, you want undeniable scientific proof of God. What kind of proof are you looking for? A divinely inspired book is not good enough for you. Feelings are not enough. A hand writing on a wall has not happened in a few thousand years, but I doubt even that would convince you. I know where you are coming from, as I stood in your shoes. And truly, I believed with all of my mind that God was something weak people sought to explain the unexplainable, and blame when convenient. However, after arguing for evolution and railing against stupid creationists for years, I was faced with some pretty strong facts from some pretty smart people. Have you read anything about or by Sir Fred Hoyle? Or the Nobel winner, DNA discoverer Crick? Hoyle was a staunch evolutionist, until he considered his own theories closely. And Crick redefined his hypothesis of life evolving on earth when he realized how impossible it would be, and instead devised the theory of Panspermia. Come on! We're supposed to accept by faith that life was transported to earth from another planet where it formed in an unknown time in an unknown way through an unknown process, yet you can laugh at people that believe in a Creator?Sorry, much of my proof will follow on the Evolution page, as I have seriously spent time on both sides of the fence. Tormud, I thank you for allowing this thread to continue. I do believe that science can co-exist with God. However, I do not believe that God should be discounted for lack of proof. Many things in science are accepted by faith. Some are finally proven correct, some are proven false, some are still theories. But stating a theory as fact does not make it a fact.
Freethinker Posted April 2, 2004 Report Posted April 2, 2004 Originally posted by: Tim_Lou freethinker, you dont even know some basic explaination of some theoies on science (an example is the proof to uncertain principal),...last thing, for the uncertain principal, i dont really know much and im confused by those proofs of it (thats why i ask freethinker to try to prove it). plz replies if someone really knows how this principal works, thx !. OK then. First you CLAIM that my explanation is WRONG, then you ADMIT that you don't have a clue as to whether it is or is not! This is typical of a blind faith based believer. Now as to the claim that I am WRONG about Uncertainity and the decay of a radioisotope to a more stable state... Department of Physics, University of Oregon http://zebu.uoregon.edu/~js/21st_century_science/lectures/lec14.html "The uncertainty principle is alternatively expressed in terms of a particle's momentum and position. The momentum of a particle is equal to the product of its mass times its velocity. Thus, the product of the uncertainties in the momentum and the position of a particle equals h/(2) or more. The principle applies to other related (conjugate) pairs of observables, such as energy and time: the product of the uncertainty in an energy measurement and the uncertainty in the time interval during which the measurement is made also equals h/(2) or more. The same relation holds, for an unstable atom or nucleus, between the uncertainty in the quantity of energy radiated and the uncertainty in the lifetime of the unstable system as it makes a transition to a more stable state." but you still believe in it (believe in QM). b4 you make a point in arugment of god, go read something about it, and understand what it says. there is no point if you dont know anything about god and still trying to deney it. It is so obvious and laughable that *I* am the one that keeps being accused of accepting without proof/ knowledge and should READ MORE when it is completely obvious at this point that I am the ONLY ONE that has been able to PROVE EVERY ASSERTION I MAKE. And further that all the god believers have FAILED to even attempt to do so! plz replies if someone really knows how this principal works, thx !. *I* did the FIRST TIME and have now PROVED *I* was RIGHT! I realize how problematic this is for you. You are so desperate to cling to your unsupportable superstition that you keep trying to ignore REALITY when it is presented to you. Especially if it is presented by a non-believer that is challenging your empty claims. So now then, Tim... we are back to you either actually providing ANYTHING to PROVE your god claims or your being honest enough to admit you don't have any. Well?
IrishEyes Posted April 2, 2004 Report Posted April 2, 2004 Freethinker, (man, what a name!) you are a riot!! Reading your posts are actaully giving me a stomachache from laughing so hard. I can almost see your face turning red as you sputter at the ridiculous religious fanatics! I really don't know how to prove the existence of God. I can admit that. I'm not afraid to say that there are MANY things in this world that I do not fully understand, or can not fully explain. You rail at believers about 'proving' the existence of God. It probably can't be done, which is what led me to atheism in the first place. You can argue until the Rapture that there is no God, and people will probably not be able to convince you otherwise. But the other side of "no God" in the question of our origin is primordial ooze, random chance, millions of years of nothing, and other things so far into the realm of fantasy that creation looks tame. I'm asking you to support evolution with the same zeal with which you knock God. Cite an actual proven case of a species evolving into another. I'm not talking about a case of adaptation, but actual evolution. And if you think that evoultion has no place on this "God" thread, I will point out that just as God is difficult to prove, so is the opposite. I understand your argument that it is impossible to PROVE that God doesn't exist, that's why you keep screaming for proof that He does. If God does not exist, then He did not create, and so we must be the product of evolution, right? Well, evoultion is firmly rooted in the sciences, so please "Prove it". If the proof is not forthcoming, then I see no alternative than that God does in fact exist. this thread or the evolution one will be fine, I'm keeping an eye on posts from both, and i can hardly wait to hear from you or Tormud.We're all waiting...
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