GOD

[Freethinker]

So what is this thread about? One would think that with a subject of "God" and this being a site " which aims to provide popular science and technology content to a general, world-wide audience on a daily basis" that the discussion would be based on a rational scientific aproach to the concept of a god, gods, goddesses, ...

 

Instead, with few exceptions, we have a variety of totally unscientific ramblings about how god must exists even though each and every one of them is unable to provide even the first simple proof to support it. Instead we are inundated with excuses and fallacies. We are exposed to the mindset that has held society back from positive advancements. Ya we know, the earth is flat and deamons cause illness. And those that dare disagree will be killed!

 

Oh wait, SCIENCE proved that the earth was ROUND! OPS! OK, but it is the center of everything, we KNOW that from religion! and we will kill anyone that says otherwise!

 

OPS AGAIN! sorry bout all that killing! We'll only kill those that refuse to accept OUR version of god now...

 

As to those deamons! What does SCIENCE know? So what if we can throw two hunks of metal 286 million miles and have them land SAFELY with-in a few yards of the intended location. Then this same make believe SCIENCE, which we know better than to trust, was resopnsible for both hunks of metal becoming mobile vehicles that can navigate this alien, inhospitable planet, sample it's soil and gases and send all of this data, along with full color pictures, to earth.

 

Oh ya, the same SCIENCE that has solved medical problem after medical problem. DIRECTLY resonsible for DRAMATICALLY extending human life and improving the quality of life during the extended time period.

 

Oh and also such other technologies such as computers which process gigabytes of data every second and the Internet which allows us to communicate virtually instantaneously with anyplace on earth.

 

What would such a totally disreputable, unproven, idiotic, faithbased, nonsenscial approach as SCIENCE ever say about our very existencew that would be of any use what so ever?

 

Remember, it is deamons that make us sick on this flat hunk of cheese. And death to those that dare to disagree!

 

As to proof! Why bother. We need to keep an open mind to whatever combination of mystical god events and supernatural occuarances anyone states is real. Of course they all actually happened! Why do we need PROOF for things when it is so much better to let children die while praying for them rather than foul our access to our next life by resorting to something as EVIL as SCIENCE! Of course that open mind has to be closed to such attrocious concepts as FACTS, lest once again we end up being punished for eternity by a loving god that wants anyone that will not blindly accept it's exsitence to burn in hell.

 

The last thing a SCIENCE based site wants is a discussion based on FACT and PROOF! Especialy when the topic is GOD!

 

So turn off that electric light, pull the plug on your computer, yank the phone off the wall, throw out all the medicine that saves lives... god is great, he takes care of us better than any of this scientific factual nonsense! Proof is for fools that want to live a quality life for a long period of time and see a betterment to society. Rather than suffer and die as god originally planned!

 

What are you doing still reading this? God will punish you for eternity for even the slightest acknowledgement that SCIENCE just MIGHT have the slightest bit of reality behind it! Better turn off that monitor or you to will be destined to suffer punishment for eternity!

 

ALLAH BE PRAISED!

[Tim_Lou]

ok, this category is about " Philosophy and Humanities" HUMANITIES!!! (in fact, we did add some scientific information which does not go against the purpose of this forum)

and this topic is about "GOD"!!!! not "god vs science" nor "proof of god"

 

you said that god is useless and cant even compare to a computer?

ok, here, stop loving your friends and family, stop being a good person, simply go work and pay your bills and have your food, and live w/ your physical body but w/out your soul (you dont believe in sould probably)!

 

ok, believe in god is stupid, its no proof. how about QM, how about cosmology? y you bother reading those stupid idiotic, almost science fiction stuffs???

 

ppl believe in god, not because they have nothing else to do. i was forced to study things about god for many years in my old days, but i never believed in it. ppl believe because they feel it, it provides and answer to their questions, they added god as part of their knowledge to live in this world. try and make a new religious and see how many ppl you can get to trust you! its not easy for a STUPID USELESS RELIGIOUS to exist!

 

and again, for god, i dont mean the god in bible, i mean the god in cosmology. so, i dont have to PRAISE! (dont mess the "NEW" god w/ science, they DO NOT contradict each other (but a few). knowledge has to be improved and so as god, its been improved to the "NEW" god w/ science.)

[geko]

The most popular accepted notion i think is that god is a consciousness that created existence, in which case there must have been an existence in the first place for the consciousness to exist in....?

 

What created that existence? Supergod? And that existence? Super-duper god?

 

Can/should this be carried on to an infinite regress?

 

With respect,

Geko

[Freethinker]

Geko, good luck. You have suggested some valid philosophical objections to the invention of a god myth. But I have found that logic and reason are not the modus operandi around here. All you'll get is that god HAS to exist and no one can prove otherwise so he must exist.

[IrishEyes]

Actually, it's not that difficult. It's taking a step that most find too difficult. It's admitting that there is something MUCH better than yourself in this universe. It took me a LONG time, but I eventually gave up and admitted that I'm not the best thing to evolve on this planet since peanut butter and sliced bread!

 

I also want to point out that FREETHINKER - your protests of God are much more vehement than most people's affirmations. Why is that? I mean, I don't particularly believe in the Tooth Fairy, but I sure don't spend hours and days and years telling people that he/she doesn't exist. Do I believe that the children of this world would be better off if disabused of the ridiculous notion that a mystical being comes and gives them money if they will leave their teeth in a glass of water overnight? Certainly. I mean, think of all the teeth that kids would still have in their heads, think of all of the dentists that could spend more time golfing, if only kids didn't want that extra money enough to pull their teeth for the Tooth Fairy. However, I don't spend my time researching, trying to prove, and PREACHING that everyone that believes is an idiot.

 

People want to believe in God? LET THEM!!! It brings some peace. It gives others hope. It changes people, mostly for the better. I understand your problem with religion, and I agree with you, but Christianity, Judaism, Islam...these are NOT God. People that pervert religion to justify killing, raping, stealing, hurting, etc. are not truly doing these things for God. God is an excuse they use. Not every American is a bloodthirsty killer, and neither are all who call on the name of God, in whatever language they use. Don't generalize Christians, there are good and bad in every religion, just as in every country. Like I posted in "Evolution" - I am changed, and it wasn't me that made the change. I hope you'll keep questioning!

[Freethinker]

Originally posted by: IrishEyes

Actually, it's not that difficult. It's taking a step that most find too difficult. It's admitting that there is something MUCH better than yourself in this universe. It took me a LONG time, but I eventually gave up and admitted that I'm not the best thing to evolve on this planet since peanut butter and sliced bread!

 

 

 

I also want to point out that FREETHINKER - your protests of God are much more vehement than most people's affirmations. Why is that? I mean, I don't particularly believe in the Tooth Fairy, but I sure don't spend hours and days and years telling people that he/she doesn't exist. Do I believe that the children of this world would be better off if disabused of the ridiculous notion that a mystical being comes and gives them money if they will leave their teeth in a glass of water overnight? Certainly. I mean, think of all the teeth that kids would still have in their heads, think of all of the dentists that could spend more time golfing, if only kids didn't want that extra money enough to pull their teeth for the Tooth Fairy. However, I don't spend my time researching, trying to prove, and PREACHING that everyone that believes is an idiot.

 

 

 

People want to believe in God? LET THEM!!! It brings some peace. It gives others hope. It changes people, mostly for the better. I understand your problem with religion, and I agree with you, but Christianity, Judaism, Islam...these are NOT God. People that pervert religion to justify killing, raping, stealing, hurting, etc. are not truly doing these things for God. God is an excuse they use. Not every American is a bloodthirsty killer, and neither are all who call on the name of God, in whatever language they use. Don't generalize Christians, there are good and bad in every religion, just as in every country. Like I posted in "Evolution" - I am changed, and it wasn't me that made the change. I hope you'll keep questioning!

[geko]

Originally posted by: IrishEyes

Actually, it's not that difficult........... It's admitting that there is something MUCH better than yourself in this universe. It took me a LONG time, but I eventually gave up and admitted that I'm not the best thing to evolve on this planet since peanut butter and sliced bread!

 

---

Are you saying that it's not difficult to accept god as an actuality? Do you mind me asking how and why you accepted the idea so easily?

 

"......admitting that there is something Much better than yourself..........." why is this so? it looks more like a belief to me.

 

With respect,

geko

[Tim_Lou]

ok, i fail to answer where god comes from. it is simply an ultimate being, which "exist forever" in other world, a world w/out space and time and existence.

 

but let me ask you geko, explains where does the universe come from in a science way.

big bang? where does big bang come from? membranes colliding? where does membranes come from?........ultimately, same thing happens, you fail to explain where everything come from.

 

this question is actually the "blind spot" of everything. no one can truely explains it.

[Tim_Lou]

again, i have to stat that admitting is not easy!

people believe in god is because they feel the existence of god or god provide and answer for them.

 

hmmm.... what irisheyes mean is that god is easily accepted when you believe in it. it makes perfect sense, without complex ideas......simply a creator which creates everything.

[geko]

I was simply wondering why people accept the existence of god and creator so easily.

 

No i cant explain how existence came into being.

[IrishEyes]

Geko said "Are you saying that it's not difficult to accept god as an actuality? Do you mind me asking how and why you accepted the idea so easily?"

 

Welcome, Geko. I didn't accept easily. It took years, study, and lots of grief. I've posted a few times about this, in THIS thread, and in EVOLUTION. I was raised in church, and saw a lot of hypocrisy. As I got older, I wanted to live my life MY way, not following the 'Laws' I had been taught were from God, but instead following a much more worldly lifestyle. This included much alcohol, and sexual immorality (I was a conceited drunk slut, basically!). During this time, I also turned to science for answers, as I was looking for proof that God was a lie. I have an education, am fairly intelligent, and know how to question and research. I LOVE to research, actually. So, I drifted from a God-based belief system to agnosticism, then to atheism. Atheism led to a deep study of 'evolution' as an explanation for my origin. I mean 'evolution' in the loosest sense, with a full personal understanding that there are many different evolutionary beliefs, and many varied theories as to how humans 'evolved'. As I studied evolution, I realized how many holes there are, and was troubled. The more I researched, the more gaps appeared. I listed A FEW of them in the Evolution thread on this site. However, that barely scratches the surface. Finally, I admitted that there was no proof for evolution, and much proof against it. If we didn't 'evolve', how did we get here? That led me back to creation, and finally back to God.

 

"......admitting that there is something Much better than yourself..........." why is this so? it looks more like a belief to me.

A belief? Well, do you honestly believe that you are the epitome of everything in this universe? I don't think you can point to any person or thing and say "There is nothing better than him/her/it". Except maybe that aforementioned peanut butter and sliced bread...lol. My 'belief' is that there are things better than me. The greatest of them is my Creator. He happens to be at the top of the list, but there are others. Can you honestly say that there is nothing better than you? And is that a fact, or just your belief? I guess it's in the way one looks at it, huh?

 

Tim said "again, i have to stat that admitting is not easy! people believe in god is because they feel the existence of god or god provide and answer for them. hmmm.... what irisheyes mean is that god is easily accepted when you believe in it. it makes perfect sense, without complex ideas......simply a creator which creates everything.

That's sort of what I meant. You can either accept by faith that God exists, or you can try to prove and disprove His existence. Most people that refuse to accept God exists are either 1) living in a way that they know violates God's basic Laws, or 2) angry at God for something, and so choose to 'deny' Him, or 3) had parents that fell into one of the first 2. Many 'atheists' start as people that see hypocrisy in their home or church, or with "religious" friends, or because God didn't 'answer' a prayer and they suffered because of His failure to help them. I was a combination of the first two. My 'search' brought me back to God, but it still took me a while to accept that salvation is a free gift, and there is nothing I can do to get to Heaven but accept it. It's already been done for me, and there is nothing for me to add. But that is religion, not just God, and I will stop there in respect to this forum. I will say that I believe in the God of the Bible, and I do not believe the Bible is just another book. If you want more than that, ask and I'll send you an e-mail.

 

Geko again... "I was simply wondering why people accept the existence of god and creator so easily. No i cant explain how existence came into being. "

For me, it wasn't easy. It took a long time. And if you can't explain how we got here, I would encourage you to keep searching, and not accept anyone else's answers.

<B

[sanctus]

Originally posted by: IrishEyes

 

 

 

 

People want to believe in God? LET THEM!!! It brings some peace. It gives others hope. It changes people, mostly for the better. I understand your problem with religion, and I agree with you, but Christianity, Judaism, Islam...these are NOT God. People that pervert religion to justify killing, raping, stealing, hurting, etc. are not truly doing these things for God. God is an excuse they use. Not every American is a bloodthirsty killer, and neither are all who call on the name of God, in whatever language they use. Don't generalize Christians, there are good and bad in every religion, just as in every country. Like I posted in "Evolution" - I am changed, and it wasn't me that made the change. I hope you'll keep questioning!

 

 

I don't know what freethinker thinks, but as in many points I agreed with him, I tell you what I think about what you wrote.

 

My problem is not letting people believe in god, but the fact that they CLAIM to have the (objective) proof of god's existence. Often (I enphatize often, not always) there is the consequence that they judge you badly because you don't believe in something that IS proven.

 

Later on you talk about thinking you were the best until you changed your mind that now you see that there are things much better (you wrote:

It's admitting that there is something MUCH better than yourself in this universe. It took me a LONG time, but I eventually gave up and admitted that I'm not the best thing to evolve on this planet since peanut butter and sliced bread! ),

my question is what is the measure to say something is better than something else? Doesn't it depend (like in relativity) on the reference system? As some greek philosophe once said everybody is the master of his univers and therefore I can honestly say that I'm the best one.

 

 

I will say that I believe in the God of the Bible, and I do not believe the Bible is just another book. If you want more than that, ask and I'll send you an e-mail.

 

For me you don't have to send an e-mail (if you want you can send me a private message), but yes I wonder why you believe in the god of the bible (if you read my earlier posts, you see why)?

I mean there are so many paradoxes in the bible, on one side the bible states that god should be eternal (therefore timeless) and endlessly good, so why did he create mankind in the first time if afterwards he sent the flood to kill them all (99%)? Actually he who is endlessly good why did he kill? He who is endleesly good why didn't he show mercy. You will tell me that now he does with the new testament, everybody goes to heaven, but if he is timeless why and how does he differentiate the ones who came before and after jesus (being endlessly good shouldn't he accept everyone in heaven)?

I also don't understand how you can believe in this god, he who is responsible for so many killings (I know you say god is not religion -I agree- but the god of the bible is religion).

 

In one thing I agree the bible isn't just like another book, but is'ts not the only one of his kind, eventually the bible has just the purpose to make people live in a better world like many other books. It's nothing more divine. If you say that you believe in god and he wants to safe us and make us live our lives happily then you have to agree, that all books that preach respect of people and nature are equivalent to the bible.

[sanctus]

Actually if you want we can make a new thread about why somebody can believein the god that represents a religion, even if he agrees that religion is responsible fro many killings.

[IrishEyes]

My problem is not letting people believe in god, but the fact that they CLAIM to have the (objective) proof of god's existence. Often (I enphatize often, not always) there is the consequence that they judge you badly because you don't believe in something that IS proven.

 

Sanctus, I'm not really sure if I'm allowed to go into this or not. I've been reprimanded more than once that this is an S&T website, and my reply is clearly a religious one. My specific religious beliefs have NOTHING to do with science, but leaving atheism and evolution did have to do with science. Yes, there ARE some judgemental Christians, and other religious people, in this world. There are people that pervert religion, or change religious beliefs to fit into their lifestyle. You can twist words to make "Thou shall not kill" mean "Thou shall not kill on Wednesday of a full moon". I've never claimed to have "objective proof of God's existence". My argument has been mainly against evolution being accepted as fact, when it is not. I don't know that you will find 'objective proof...', especially if you are determined that none exists. I know I'll get attacked on that statement, but I'm leaving it anyhow.

 

my question is what is the measure to say something is better than something else? Doesn't it depend (like in relativity) on the reference system? As some greek philosophe once said everybody is the master of his univers and therefore I can honestly say that I'm the best one.

I believe in absolutes, and I don't mean the vodka. There are things that are absolute in life. Life is one of them. It is an absolute that your life will end. There are things that are wrong regardless of how people try to excuse them. Most of my absolute beliefs come from the Bible.

 

For me you don't have to send an e-mail (if you want you can send me a private message), but yes I wonder why you believe in the god of the bible (if you read my earlier posts, you see why)? I mean there are so many paradoxes in the bible, The Bible is full of parables, but it does not contradict itself.

 

on one side the bible states that god should be eternal (therefore timeless) and endlessly good, so why did he create mankind in the first time if afterwards he sent the flood to kill them all (99%)? It is my belief that God IS eternal, but He is also Just, not just endlessly good. He created man as a sinless being, with free will to choose sin or not. Man chose sin. The consequence of sin is separation from God (death). This was explained long before the first sin was committed, yet still sin happened. The Flood was God's way of cleansing the earth of evil, as Noah (and family) were the only ones found to be righteous.

 

Actually he who is endlessly good why did he kill? He who is endleesly good why didn't he show mercy. It is again MY BELIEF that He showed mercy for many years. It took Noah over 100 years to build his ark, and people laughed the whole time. They had over 100 years to change, over 100 years of mercy, but they still chose sin, and so were punished by death. Goodness and mercy do not preclude justice and righteousness. If your child misbehaves, are there not consequences? If a person commits a crime, shouldn't there be justice?

 

You will tell me that now he does with the new testament, everybody goes to heaven, but if he is timeless why and how does he differentiate the ones who came before and after jesus (being endlessly good shouldn't he accept everyone in heaven)?

No, I won't tell you that. I do not believe that everyone goes to Heaven. I wish they did. My personal belief is that the righteous people that came before Jesus are in Heaven. Again, my personal belief is that no one could be in Heaven before Jesus died on the cross. Sin entered into the world and the price for sin (death)had to be paid, and Jesus paid that price for all mankind. However, not everyone accepts that, and I personally believe that those who reject God's plan of salvation through the death of

[sanctus]

I haven't got much time now, but I just wanted to reply something and this time it is purely scientific.

 

You agree that if god is eternal (he has been for eons and he will be for eons, admitting that you believe he exists), then he is timeless, because he has no notion of time (only something finite in time needs a notion of time). Because like we can see distances in space he can see distances in time, he can see a young tree,an old tree and a dead tree just looking at it. That means 100 years of mercy means nothing its negligible in front of the eons he goes through.

 

And that means as well that if he is timeless he is omnipresent in time, so he knew already before the hundred years passed that the people would sin. So he did just give them a change knowing that they would fail and then judge them, I call this hypocrisy.

[Freethinker]

Originally posted by: IrishEyes

Actually, it's not that difficult. It's taking a step that most find too difficult. It's admitting that there is something MUCH better than yourself in this universe. It took me a LONG time, but I eventually gave up and admitted that I'm not the best thing to evolve on this planet since peanut butter and sliced bread!

 

Here we go again. Yes we all know that you are a much better person than I because you follow some antiquated superstition. Do you even get involved in a discussion in which your position is something other than you are the person that KNOWS what is the truth even when you admit you have no proof for it and that that makes you a better person than the other guy?

 

Part of the philosophy inherent with the beleif in a personal god is that that god holds a special position for the human race, and particularly those that worship him/it. So once more we find, contrary to your twists, that it is those beleivers that hold themselves up as "MUCH better than (anything else) in this universe."

 

I have no problem with putting the human race in a REALISTIC position. We are ANIMALS. As such, there are members of the animal kingdom that are faster, swim better, fly, see better, ... Humans are actually far down the ladder in terms of overall capabilities. We seem to have one main advantage over our fellow animals, that is our superior thought process. In fact that is emperical evidence of Evolution. Each species has developed it's niche, it's best position relative to all other species, to assure survivle. Ours happens to be intellect.

 

So much for your attempt to refute my position by insulting me.

 

I also want to point out that FREETHINKER - your protests of God are much more vehement than most people's affirmations. Why is that? I mean, I don't particularly believe in the Tooth Fairy, but I sure don't spend hours and days and years telling people that he/she doesn't exist.

 

Belief in a god has been repsonsible for more death, more ignorance, more suffering for humanity than any other single element we have control over. More people were killed by the Inquistion than by Hitler. Add to that that Hitler put in WRITING that he did what he did because he was following his (Christian) Lord!

 

Religion (belief in a god) held that interference with god's will is wrong. So religious authorities have tried to stop EVERY attempt made to find natural remedies for illness. Religion tried to stop vivisection, without which we would not ahfve any idea of how the body worked. Religion tried to stop even the simplest attempts, such as cleanliness. Washing was considered to be conceit, to be avoided. Religion actually fought against washing hands before treating wounds. It tried to stop vaccination. It was DIRECTLY responsible for the plague! God belief convinced Europeans that cats were pagan "familiars" and as such bad. So they set out to kill them. This caused a dramatic rise in the rat population, thus allowing the plague to spread unchecked and kill miliions! It tried to stop (and still does) blood transfusions. It tried to stop in vitro fertilization. It is actively trying to stop what is possibly the most significant advancement in Medical SCIENCE, stem cell research.

 

If it were not for a god belief, the human race would be SIGNIFICANTLY further along. Who knows how much of the on-going suffering of humanity would have been erased ALREADY! We DO know, it would be SIGNIFICANTLY further.

 

Let's move on to societal harm from god beliefs. Millions are dying right now in 3rd world countries. There is a directly proportional corelation between the religious affiliation of the local politics and population rates in those countries. Religious authorities in those countries work aggressively to STOP the promotion of simple applcations of methods that would SOVLE the problem. Religious ideology works to stop the promotion of using

[rileyj]

hey freethinker is it possible to shorten your replys

also,

"Good people will always do good things

bad people will always do bad things

it takes religion to make good people do really bad things"

 

it can also make bad people do good

example : the many people that turned themselves in for crimes like murder after they got away with it ,just because they saw "the passion".