GOD

[Freethinker]

Originally posted by: rileyj

"selfrighteous superiority"

 

 

 

i don't think all religions establish this,in fact many teach that their "god" is superior, not people.

 

Yes religions teach that THEIR god is no only Superior, but in today's montheistic ones, the ONLY god.

 

But this directly translates into the "selfrighteous superiority" for those that follow it.

 

I know most believers CLAIM otherwise. But it is NEVER a god itself that makes the proclaimation of it's superiority. It is ALWAYS the followers. Thus while their claim may not be for their PERSONAL superiority (n fact they typically claim self debasement), it is ALWAYS for their beliefs superiority.

 

Look at the arguments presented here on other threads. The Beleivers ALWAYS claim to have absolutely perfect knowledge. They always claim that no matter what, no matter that they can not produce a single verifyable factual support, that they KNOW their god exists and IS the ONLY god.

 

Self debasement and pusuit of persecution are typical qualities promoted to believers by their religions.

 

"Christians are not perfect, just saved!"

 

is a classic example. It establishes the follower as inferior in and of themselves. But ultimately SUPERIOR TO OTHERS. And the more they are ridiculedor abused, the more they are going to be rewarded.

 

you can't blame religious beliefs for the actions of people,

 

as always. It is easy to CLAIM something. But let's see it stand up to critical analysis.

 

I gave a specific example of a Christian Biblical Tenet and the direct results of it.

 

PROVE it is WRONG.

[Freethinker]

I posted:

 

Originally posted by: Freethinker

Show us what motivation could be used by an Atheist to kill thousands, including themselves in the process, that gets even close to the believed promise of godly reward in an afterlife including 76 virgins for enterity.

To which you replied:

 

Originally posted by: rileyj

what about a postal worker that kills all his co-workers.

 

??? At what point did being an Atheist become a REQUIREMENT in order to be hired as an employee of the US Postal Service

 

Originally posted by: rileyj

and what about the american revolution thousands were killed for that or the civil war

 

??? So only Atheists fought (on both sides) in the Civil War?

 

Neither of these has ANY value in the discussion. They are not even CLOSE to being connected.

 

In fact, based on the stats I provided elsewhere here, it is almost a 100% chance that the postal worker was a Christian, as almost 100% of murders ARE Christian in our jails.

[rileyj]

i was showing that religion is not the driving force in every murder or war

 

" almost 100% of murders ARE Christian in our jails."

 

come on

[Freethinker]

Originally posted by: rileyj

i was showing that religion is not the driving force in every murder or war

As far as murder, while a specific religious issue might not be directly related motivation, one's personal world view will dictate what they find as acceptable limits of action. Obviously being a Christian does not reduce one's chance of committing murder.

 

" almost 100% of murders ARE Christian in our jails."

 

come on

 

In fact, based on stats I just published somewhere on this site, YES. In fact, to follow up on the above, not only does being Christian not REDUCE the chances, but it actually is shown to INCREASE the likelyhood. There is a significantly greater chance of a murderer being a Christian, than Christianities percentage of the population.

[Tim_Lou]

the crimes happened in our history were not caused totally by religious.

 

in the past, people were less educated and tend to be racism. this is the nature of human, lack of education and the time period they were in. events in history influenced people and they became warlike. religious in the past was used as an excuse or a way to gather ppl. like Christianity, not only did it involve w/ god but races (blacks and whites).

 

religious may cause some negative effect, but not the "god". this is mainly because of ppl's misunderstanding. "SUPERIOR TO OTHERS" is saying god is superior (only god), and god love us and all humans and everything are equal.

 

if you only blame on religious, thats not right. in chinese's history, mao believed in communism too deeply and caused the cultural revolution, which has a really negative impact on china. religious played a role in history but not totally. also, religious in the past wasn't only religious, it involved in many other factors. b/c in the old days, religious are so popular that people used religious to cover thing up.

 

like the war in Afghanistan and those terrorism. some people blamed on religious but it wasnt really the main reason. i was mainly because of the hatred bulit in Afghanistan by the United States.

 

in today's society, these massive killing stuffs are not likely gonna happen, ppl are better educated and more $ and stuffs. we can see that religious is not really the main reason.

[Tim_Lou]

"almost 100% of murders ARE Christian in our jails."

 

this is because murders are scared and hope that god can excuse them, so they went to the church...as i said b4.

 

they go to church because there are lots of them, and christian is so popular.

i bet that more then 90% murderers in china arent christian, right?

 

plus, have you ever heard of a monk killing someone??

never a single one in my brain lol. (im a chinese)

[Freethinker]

Originally posted by: Tim_Lou

the crimes happened in our history were not caused totally by religious.

 

in the past, people were less educated and tend to be racism. this is the nature of human,

 

The ONLY people that think that basic human nature is negative are God believers. Mainly Christians and Judaism. I do not know Islam well enough to place it.

 

Humanists typically feel that humanity is naturally altruistic. It is to each persons best interest to be good to everyone else. It has very strong evolutionary benefits. Thus it is hardwired into our psyche. Those with anti-social behavior are less apt to procreate.

 

It takes religion to turn a person's opinion of the human race, THEY ARE PART OF, to hate and denegrate it.

 

Racism has always been justified using religious reasons. One prejudice is as valid as another. Humanists do not have a fundamental structure of prejudice. There is no "my god is better than your god" mentality in Humanism. Thus it requires a complete shift in mindset to introduce ANY prejudice.

 

lack of education and the time period they were in.

 

And it is religion that is trying to stop education today. That is exactly what Creationism is all about. Trying to maintian the ignorance they were able to enforce by force before.

 

religious may cause some negative effect, but not the "god". this is mainly because of ppl's misunderstanding. "SUPERIOR TO OTHERS" is saying god is superior (only god),

 

Since there is no god (and that is the ONLY position a god can take in our discussion until proof is given to support a god's existence), there is nothing to "misunderstand". It is the "understanding" that a specific religion instills that is at issue. And that "understanding" is that this particular god myth is "SUPERIOR TO OTHERS". And "therefore" it's followers are "SUPERIOR TO OTHERS". If not in and of themselves, just by being that god's followers, becayse THAT god is "SUPERIOR TO OTHERS".

 

Prejudice. As a PRIMARY motivation.

 

if you only blame on religious, thats not right.

 

I agree and you can not show a single spot in which I said that religion was the ONLY reason. Why are you claiming I said that? That is a Straw Man argument.

 

in today's society, these massive killing stuffs are not likely gonna happen, ppl are better educated and more $ and stuffs. we can see that religious is not really the main reason.

 

Tell that to the Palestinians and Israel's, Ireland, Bosnia, Afganistan, Pakistan, ....

[Freethinker]

Originally posted by: Tim_Lou

"almost 100% of murders ARE Christian in our jails."

 

 

 

this is because murders are scared and hope that god can excuse them, so they went to the church...as i said b4.

 

Here, let's try to explain it to you this way.

 

If you don't commit murder, chances are you will not be arrested and jailed for it. Not 100%, but... Anyway, a "murder" is someone's intentional action against another person. The murderer had to have a mindset that would allow them to consider murder as a viable alternative to whatever stimulous they are reacting to. If a person's individual POV is such that they do not consider murder as an option at any cost, they just simply will not comit murder.

 

MURDER has to be an option the murderer will find acceptable. The FACT is that in the US, chances are almost 100% that a person that commits a murder will be a Christian. Even though far less than 100% of the US population is Christian.

 

Therefore Christianity is a POSITIVE factor in determining whether murder is considered a viable option by a person.

 

they go to church because there are lots of them, and christian is so popular.

 

There are more bars in the US than churches.

[Tim_Lou]

religious caused many negative effects in the world.

but what about china? i cant really name one big killing event involved w/ religions.

 

hmm, chinese don't have religions? not really

the religions are different? not really

 

so, what causes the differences???

 

if its the same, why china wasn't like the other countries?

since religions are the same, is it right to blame on religions? is it possible to blame on other factors?

 

hmm, probably, there is something that get chinese out of the negative effects of religions....what is it then? maybe not able to get guns???lol, thats the only thing i can think of.

[Freethinker]

Originally posted by: Tim_Lou

religious caused many negative effects in the world.

 

but what about china? i cant really name one big killing event involved w/ religions.

 

 

 

hmm, chinese don't have religions? not really

 

the religions are different? not really

 

 

 

so, what causes the differences???

 

Interesting questions. Honestly, I do not know a lot about China. Even I have my limits... :-)

 

But in researching it, I find that China does not supply statistics (or even compile?) very much. The one site I found that did give a comparison between US and China's Murder Rate showed China's to be less than half, close to a third of the US's.

 

So you are helping to prove that a non-christian country has lower Murder rates.

 

Thanks

[rileyj]

our country has the highest murder rate but i don't think that has anything to do with religion. people don't go around in killing for god. it's mostly money, drugs, cheating spouse, etc.. look i don't see how believing in god is such a bad thing, there are many other greater problems. and if some people find hopein it great, if some people think twice about murder or rape outstanding and if others like you find superioty in looking down on people who think there is a god, then good for you.

[Freethinker]

Originally posted by: rileyj

our country has the highest murder rate but i don't think that has anything to do with religion. people don't go around in killing for god. it's mostly money, drugs, cheating spouse, etc..

 

I posted a more extensive explanation above

Originally posted by: Freethinker

Here, let's try to explain it to you this way....The murderer had to have a mindset that would allow them to consider murder as a viable alternative to whatever stimulous they are reacting to... MURDER has to be an option the murderer will find acceptable. The FACT is that in the US, chances are almost 100% that a person that commits a murder will be a Christian. Even though far less than 100% of the US population is Christian.

So while there can be any number of justifications for the immediate motivation, it still REQUIRES that the person have a predisposed personal philsophy which will allow murder to be considered as an acceptable process. And OBVIOUSLY Christianity allows this. In fact has a POSITIVE effect on murder being accepted as the best process at the time. Where a lack of a god belief is SHOWN to be a limiting factor in considering murder.

 

look i don't see how believing in god is such a bad thing,

 

Whenever a thought process based on blind acceptance of unprovable assertions (which is what every believer here has said, they HAVE NO ACCEPTABLE PROOF, but believe anyway) then any number of other nonsensical assertions will also be accepted. Once that mindset becomes acceptable, what is to stop it? Add to that, how people that try to force everyone to live in their narrowminded constricted worldview because their god is absolutely the only correct one and he said...! Look at how it has held mdeical science back at every turn.

 

All because, what could be the harm in accepting some hocus pocus about an old man in the sky that is waiting for a chance to punish you for eternity?

 

there are many other greater problems.

 

and you would be amazed at how many are very directly linked to religious philosophy. So many of the world's problems can be directly linked to religious dogmatic control.

 

and if some people find hopein it great,

 

As did the pilots of the planes that flew into the World Trade Towers.

 

Talk about a highly succesful "Faith Based Intitiative"!

 

if some people think twice about murder

 

That is EXACTLY the point. OBVIOUSLY the Christian God beleif does not provide that safety valve. If it did, we would not find that almost 100% of murderers in the US claim it as their personal philosophy. However it does allow them to reliquish acceptance of personal reponsibility for their actions. They were just sinners and their god forgave them...

 

They KNEW going in, they could pull that trick! God always forgives the repentant sinner! The religion actually provides a KNOWN escape route.

[Tim_Lou]

the muderers rate in United states are totally not caused by religious.

 

our nearby country, Canada, is almost the same thing, why is there so different?

 

for example, guns murdering number in US is about 10,000 a year, while Canada is about hundreds. what caused these big difference???

 

doesnt Canada have those violent games? doesnt Canada have christian? doesnt Canada have guns?? doesnt Canada have almost the same people???

 

again, i was lived and born in Macao before, a city close to Hong Kong (hope you know what it is). there IS christian, i was ruled by Portuguese before. there are tons of churches, same number as temples. and many believe in god. also Christian schools, i was studied in there b4 as i told you. also christian summer school (i went to there b4)......it DOES HAVE Christianity...

 

and the reasons the people got killed in macao are mainly:

1. suicide (due to school, money problems, or old ppl who aint got a family)

2. gangs buring cars and killing stuffs. (money and gangs problems...)

3. relationship problems (girls friends, boy friends broke up)

 

i lived in macao for almost 12 years. these are all i came up, maybe more.

but, i dont see if there is any problem w/ Christian.

 

also, you said that Christian went against races (blacks), ok, why did they only go against blacks?? y not asians?? you said that WHITES were superior as they thought, y dont they go against asians??? why dont they get some indians or chinese as slaves?? whats the difference?? hmmm...maybe they think all humans are superior except blacks.... WHY DID THEY HAVE TO GO AGAINST BLACKS, WHERE IN THE BIBLE SAID THAT "BLACKS" IS LOW? AND WHERE IN THE BIBLE SAID YOU HAVE TO KILL PEOPLE?

dont you think that there is some misunderstanding? or people use it as an excuse?

 

 

from facts above, should you say that the main problem is place or culture?? while not religions??

[Freethinker]

Originally posted by: Tim_Lou

the muderers rate in United states are totally not caused by religious.

 

OK Tim, let's try and take this step by step for you.

 

Joe Smith murders Frank. Joe is an American citizen. Chances are almost 100% that Joe is a Christian. Chances are almost ZERO that Joe is an Atheist or other non-believer.

 

No one is saying that Joe killed Frank because of a religious dispute.

 

But chances are that if Joe had NOT been a Christian, he would NOT have killed Frank. He would have found some other solution.

 

This is a FACT. I have published the stats that PROVE it elsewhere here before. You can go look at them if you are not familiar with the FACTS.

 

our nearby country, Canada, is almost the same thing, why is there so different?

 

for example, guns murdering number in US is about 10,000 a year, while Canada is about hundreds. what caused these big difference???

 

I'm not sure what you are saying is the same between the US and Canada. Canada has a MUCH lower murder rate. And as no suprise, has a much lower church attendance rate as well.

 

Thus once again we see a DIRECT increase in Murder Rate when we see a direct increase in religious adhernace.

 

......it DOES HAVE Christianity...

 

Why? Who said it didn't?

 

also, you said that Christian went against races (blacks), ok, why did they only go against blacks?? y not asians??

 

Ah, they did...For that matter the Irish also. Them rotten Catholic potato pushers!

 

WHY DID THEY HAVE TO GO AGAINST BLACKS,

 

WHERE IN THE BIBLE SAID THAT "BLACKS" IS LOW?

 

If you actually knew anything about the bible, you woyuld not have to ask an Atheist to explain it to you.

 

Genesis 9: 18-27 is almost exclusively identified as the biblical base upon which white supremacy, and the subsequent practice of slavery, is built. The passage relates the story of Noah and his family after they exit the ark. In brief, Noah plants a vineyard and quickly falls drunk from its wine. While Noah lies in a naked stupor, his youngest son Ham happens to gaze upon his father's nakedness. When Noah recovers and realises what has happened, he promptly curses his youngest and declares: "Cursed be Canaan, a slave of slaves shall he be to his brothers" (Gen. 9:25).

 

Establishing the relationship between this curse on Ham and the black skin of African slaves then became the next link in the supremacist chain. Genesis 10: 6-14 provided that essential link in declaring the black people of Egypt and Ethiopia to be the descendants of Ham. Even linguists emerged to argue that in Hebrew 'Ham' meant 'black'.

 

Slavery itself was highly regarded by the bible in numeroous places:

 

1 Peter 2:18 "Slaves, submit yourselves to your masters with all respect, not only to those who are good and considerate, but also to those who are harsh."

 

1 Timothy 6:1 "All who are under the yoke of slavery should consider their masters worthy of full respect, so that God's name and our teaching may not be slandered."

 

Colossians 3:22 "Slaves, obey your earthly masters in everything; and do it, not only when their eye is on you and to win their favor, but with sincerity of heart and reverence for the Lord."

 

Titus 2:9 "Teach slaves to be subject to their masters in everything, to try to please them, not to talk back to them,"

 

AND WHERE IN THE BIBLE SAID YOU HAVE TO KILL PEOPLE?

 

If you READ what has been posted here MANY TIMES, I would not have to post it over and over:

 

"Blessed be the Lord, my rock, who teaches my hands to wage war, and my fingers to do battle." Psalms 144:1

 

"And I will dash them one against each other, the fathers and the sons, says t

[Tim_Lou]

"American citizen"

"But chances are that if Joe had NOT been a Christian, he would NOT have killed Frank. He would have found some other solution."

but this only happens ONLY in US right? not in china as i know of...? so, you can say that if "Joe had NOT been a AMERICAN CITIZEN"

 

bible really contradict itself:

pro-slavery

LEVITICUS 25:45-46 "Moreover of the children of the strangers that do sojourn among you, of them shall ye buy, . . . and they shall be your possession . . . they shall be your bondmen forever."

GENESIS 9:25 "And he [Noah] said, Cursed be Canaan; a servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren."

EXODUS 21:2,7 "If thou buy an Hebrew servant, six years he shall serve: and in the seventh he shall go out free for nothing. . . . And if a man sell his daughter to be a maidservant, she shall not go out as the manservants do."

JOEL 3:8 "And I will sell your sons and your daughters into the hand of the children of Judah, and they shall sell them to the Sabeans, to a people far off: for the Lord hath spoken it."

LUKE 12:47,48 [Jesus speaking] "And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes."

COLOSSIANS 3:22 "Servants, obey in all things your masters."

 

anti-slavery

ISAIAH 58:6 "Undo the heavy burdens . . . let the oppressed go free, . . . break every yoke."

MATTHEW 23:10 "Neither be ye called Masters: for one is your Master, even Christ."

 

although there are fewer quotes for the anti-slavery. but if you read the whole bible, you know that it contradicts. but some people only look at part of it, so, there is misunderstanding in the bible. some personal needs are added that caused slavery.

 

as we know, in american history, north had abolished slaves way earlier than south. why? b/c south needs it, they need slaves to serve them, it is an economic needs. NOT BECAUSE THEY FOLLOW THE BIBLE!. if not, why the north and england abolished slaves way earlier??? dont they all believe in god? dont they all read the bible?

 

for the killing thing:

ROMANS 15:33 Now the God of peace be with you all. Amen.

god said that there should not be war.

 

and the story of Cain.

Genesis 4:15 God said to him, 'Indeed! Whoever kills Cain will be punished seven times as much.' God placed a mark on Cain so that whoever would find him would not kill him.

cain has a sin, but he should not be killed!

and god said to love your enemy as everyone knew.

 

killing other are mainly for personal reason, not just God, it is mainly used as an excuse.

if i kill you, freethinker, this is not because of things in bible, this is because you go against me (just kidding)

 

if i kill you because of things in bible, im a crazy guy. therefore i should go to a mental hospital and get some treatment.

 

bible drives one crazy?? well most of the time not, if its not true, most of the people in the United States will be crazy.

[Freethinker]

Originally posted by: Tim_Lou

"American citizen"

 

"But chances are that if Joe had NOT been a Christian, he would NOT have killed Frank. He would have found some other solution."

 

but this only happens ONLY in US right? not in china as i know of...? so, you can say that if "Joe had NOT been a AMERICAN CITIZEN"

 

 

 

Tim, it is obvious you are desperate to pretend that religion does not share responsibility for it's adherents thoughts and actions. But you can not divorce the two.

 

What happens in China is completely irrelvant when discussing Christianity's culpability in murder's committed in the US.

 

bible really contradict itself:... if you read the whole bible, you know that it contradicts. but some people only look at part of it, so, there is misunderstanding in the bible.

 

Yes, it does, like crazy. And that is why we must stop pretending that the bible has some special position other than as a collection of texts from various authors on a somehwhat common topic.

 

as we know, in american history, north had abolished slaves way earlier than south. why? b/c south needs it, they need slaves to serve them, it is an economic needs. NOT BECAUSE THEY FOLLOW THE BIBLE!. if not, why the north and england abolished slaves way earlier??? dont they all believe in god? dont they all read the bible?

 

Yes they all read the bible. And as you stated, they each chose the contradictory parts that suipported THEIR side of the issue.

 

That is why the bile is so usless. It can be used to suppport (or reject) whatever nonsense one wishes.

 

if i kill you, freethinker, this is not because of things in bible, this is because you go against me (just kidding)

 

And I thought we were getting so close! :-)

 

if i kill you because of things in bible, im a crazy guy. therefore i should go to a mental hospital and get some treatment.

 

No if you kill me because of things in the bible, you should go to prison, like any other murderer.

 

bible drives one crazy?? well most of the time not, if its not true, most of the people in the United States will be crazy.

 

Why MOST peopple in the bible do not read the bible. Few actually know what is in it other than a few passages they have heard from some outside source.

 

But you still miss the point. Perhaps on purpose.

 

If Joe kills Frank, it is because Joe'spersonal world view allows him to consider killing to be an acceptable process. In the US, the vast majority, close to 100%, of those that consider murder to be an acceptable process, ara Christians... they use CHRISTIANITY as their world view, as their guidelines for morals and ethics. And CHristianity has as part of it's WRITTEN list of tenets, the promotion of murder.

 

Yes it also contradicts itself by saying not to kill. But it overwhelmingly shows killing as a benefitial thing.

 

Thus bottom line, Christianity as a world view allows it's followers to consider Murder as a viable process and promotes that it's adherants use it.

 

And that in the US it is almost a 100% chance that a murderer is Christian.

[Tim_Lou]

Christianity might do some harm, but only when it combines w/ something else (such as some mental problems, personal experience and culture, and these ARE NOT the problems of religions).

Christianity is NOT the ONLY reason. it doesnt really cause a big harm in the whole world except for some countries.

 

but not only is christianity "harmful", it is also benefitial. it prevents lots of people from suiciding. it helps lots of people to solve their problems. also helped poors to have a better life and give them a social position. some murderers caused by christianity are just the "side effects".

 

like money, people get crazy about it. but should we get rip of it?? we cant, it is a necessary need for a country, although it has some "side effect".