Has any UN resolution ever....

[C1ay]

...the argument can be made that the veto powers of the big five pretty much cause a stalemate on most contentious issues, so in this respect, the power of the UN is indeed limited.

That's really the whole problem. There would never have been UN approval to do anything in Iraq because those with a vested interest in the oil-for-food program would just continue to veto any action that would jeopardize their interest. It's the same with Iran. China has already stated that it would use it's veto power in any attempt to refer Iran's nuclear issue to the Security Council. Why? China has signed any energy agreement with Iran to feed it's now-larger-than-america thirst for energy. It would likely do the same to protect North Korea from any action that would flood China with North Korean refugees by the millions. It is the veto power itself that produces the need for unilateral actions. OTOH, I cannot imagine surrendering that power.

[infamous]

C1ay, I don't think this could have been said any more clearly than the way you just put it. These were the problems, plain and simple. That post is what I would refer to as direct and to the point, in a nut shell.

[alxian]

very concise

[Buffy]

That's really the whole problem. There would never have been UN approval to do anything in Iraq because those with a vested interest in the oil-for-food program would just continue to veto any action that would jeopardize their interest. It's the same with Iran. .... It is the veto power itself that produces the need for unilateral actions. OTOH, I cannot imagine surrendering that power.

I don't really disagree with any of this. My only point is, as I think is the next logical step after your last line here is that, its better to have the UN and have it do what it does that have a bunch of countries running around shooting at each other at the first sign of conflict. I said it before, its no panacea, but its good for what it does.

 

On Iraq specifically however, I think that the unbelievable impatience of the neo-cons to pull the trigger did totally miss the opportunity to justify even unilateral action: if we had taken a few more months on a crash program to dig up the dirt on the oil-for-food scandal, we would also have had the time to get the boots on the ground that the Pentagon wanted and we would have ended up 1) Embarrassing the French and the Russians so badly that we could have taken any action we wanted even if they had vetoed, because for the rest of the world they would look like the hypocrites that they are and 2) we would not be sitting in the middle of a grinding insurgency because we could have locked down all those arms depots that were emptied "after" the war and saved a lot of infrastructure that's been destroyed. None of this is to say that the UN would have helped, but saying that the UN is useless because of Iraq (or now Iran or North Korea) is just as fallacious.

 

Cheers,

Buffy

[C1ay]

I agree with much of what you say. It's not useless. It does provide alot of needed humanitarian assistance. It's just not a very effective resource at resolving conflicts which is the primary reason it was formed. For this reason it doesn't seem that any of the bad apples are worried about it's resolutions.

[damocles]

damocles

 

the acts of the individuals do not reflect those of the organization

 

 

when you can prove the UN ordered its troops to rape and pillage i'll scrutinize it.

 

haiti IMO is a lost cause, the problem with them is the french, they will survive just as african countries survive but africa has more opportunities for growth, haiti will stagnate and rot.

 

By Alxian

 

 

!

 

The acts of the individuals reflect what the organization tolerates.

 

A command structure is responsible for the rape and pillage its troops conduct. Nanking(IJA), Warsaw(Wehrmacht), and(Monrovia, Port a Prince, etc.)

 

Congo

 

http://txfx.net/2005/01/08/ongoing-un-rape/

 

Niger, Sierra Leone, etc..

 

http://timblair.net/ee/index.php/weblog/comments/un_prepared/

 

Isolated individuals? :eek_big:

 

Its an organization and command and control problem, plain and simple. The "Oil for Food" scandal should be the clue......

 

Speaking of which, Buffy has the excellent point, that the United States should have waited to work the international politics and the planning better for the Iraq war.

 

However;

 

There was no way to get the documentation of UN corruption(specifically French, German, and Russian) without harvesting the Iraqi government archives. Those documents were the arrows pointing at criminals like Annan and Chirac. That was accomplished by the actual invasion. I doubt the "Oil for Food" scandal would have become public knowledge without the invasion.

 

Ex post facto justification using the "Oil for Food" scandal still would not clear the U.S. of violating Iraq's frontiers by armed invasion; which was a crime under International Law as it is understood now.

 

UN Resolution 687 is the standing document under International Law that would legitimate war.

 

Violations were many by all agreeing parties rendering the ceasefire document worthless as a treaty. War, thus, never ceased to be the technical status.

 

http://www.fas.org/news/un/iraq/sres/sres0687.htm

 

RESOLUTION 687 (1991)

Adopted by the Security Council at its 2981st meeting,

on 3 April 1991

 

The Security Council,

 

Recalling its resolutions 660 (1990) of 2 August 1990, 661 (1990) of 6 August 1990, 662 (1990) of 9 August 1990, 664 (1990) of 18 August 1990, 665 (1990) of 25 August 1990, 666 (1990) of 13 September 1990, 667 (1990) of 16 September 1990, 669 (1990) of 24 September 1990, 670 (1990) of 25 September 1990, 674 (1990) of 29 October 1990, 677 (1990) of 28 November 1990, 678 (1990) of 29 November 1990 and 686 (1991) of 2 March 1991,

 

Welcoming the restoration to Kuwait of its sovereignty, independence and territorial integrity and the return of its legitimate Government,

 

Affirming the commitment of all Member States to the sovereignty, territorial integrity and political independence of Kuwait and Iraq, and noting the intention expressed by the Member States cooperating with Kuwait under paragraph 2 of resolution 678 (1990) to bring their military presence in Iraq to an end as soon as possible consistent with paragraph 8 of resolution 686 (1991),

 

Reaffirming the need to be assured of Iraq's peaceful intentions in the light of its unlawful invasion and occupation of Kuwait,

 

Taking note of the letter sent by the Minister for Foreign Affairs of Iraq on 27 February 1991 and those sent pursuant to resolution 686 (1991),

 

Noting that Iraq and Kuwait, as independent sovereign States, signed at Baghdad on 4 October 1963 "Agreed Minutes Between the State of Kuwait and the Republic of Iraq Regarding the Restoration of Friendly Relations, Recognition and Related Matters", thereby recognizing formally the boundary between Iraq and Kuwait and the allocation of islands, which were registered with the United Nations in accordance with Article 102 of the Charter of the United Nations and in which Iraq recognized the independence and complete sovereignty of the State of Kuwait within its borders as specified and accepted in the letter of the Prime Minister of Iraq dated 21 July 1932, and as accepted by the Ruler of Kuwait in his letter dated 10 August 1932,

 

Conscious of the need for demarcation of the said boundary,

 

Conscious also of the statements by Iraq threatening to use weapons in violation of its obligations under the Geneva Protocol for the Prohibition of the Use in War of Asphyxiating, Poisonous or Other Gases, and of Bacteriological Methods of Warfare, signed at Geneva on 17 June 1925, and of its prior use of chemical weapons and affirming that grave consequences would follow any further use by Iraq of such weapons,

 

Recalling that Iraq has subscribed to the Declaration adopted by all States participating in the Conference of States Parties to the 1925 Geneva Protocol and Other Interested States, held in Paris from 7 to 11 January 1989, establishing the objective of universal elimination of chemical and biological weapons,

 

Recalling also that Iraq has signed the Convention on the Prohibition of the Development, Production and Stockpiling of Bacteriological (Biological) and Toxin Weapons and on Their Destruction, of 10 April 1972,

 

Noting the importance of Iraq ratifying this Convention,

 

Noting moreover the importance of all States adhering to this Convention and encouraging its forthcoming Review Conference to reinforce the authority, efficiency and universal scope of the convention,

 

Stressing the importance of an early conclusion by the Conference on Disarmament of its work on a Convention on the Universal Prohibition of Chemical Weapons and of universal adherence thereto,

 

Aware of the use by Iraq of ballistic missiles in unprovoked attacks and therefore of the need to take specific measures in regard to such missiles located in Iraq,

 

Concerned by the reports in the hands of Member States that Iraq has attempted to acquire materials for a nuclear-weapons programme contrary to its obligations under the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons of 1 July 1968,

 

Recalling the objective of the establishment of a nuclear-weapons-free zone in the region of the Middle East,

 

Conscious of the threat that all weapons of mass destruction pose to peace and security in the area and of the need to work towards the establishment in the Middle East of a zone free of such weapons,

 

Conscious also of the objective of achieving balanced and comprehensive control of armaments in the region,

 

Conscious further of the importance of achieving the objectives noted above using all available means, including a dialogue among the States of the region,

 

Noting that resolution 686 (1991) marked the lifting of the measures imposed by resolution 661 (1990) in so far as they applied to Kuwait,

 

Noting that despite the progress being made in fulfilling the obligations of resolution 686 (1991), many Kuwaiti and third country nationals are still not accounted for and property remains unreturned,

 

Recalling the International Convention against the Taking of Hostages, opened for signature at New York on 18 December 1979, which categorizes all acts of taking hostages as manifestations of international terrorism,

 

Deploring threats made by Iraq during the recent conflict to make use of terrorism against targets outside Iraq and the taking of hostages by Iraq,

 

Taking note with grave concern of the reports of the Secretary-General of 20 March 1991 and 28 March 1991, and conscious of the necessity to meet urgently the humanitarian needs in Kuwait and Iraq,

 

Bearing in mind its objective of restoring international peace and security in the area as set out in recent resolutions of the Security Council,

 

Conscious of the need to take the following measures acting under Chapter VII of the Charter,

 

1. Affirms all thirteen resolutions noted above, except as expressly changed below to achieve the goals of this resolution, including a formal cease-fire;

 

A

 

2. Demands that Iraq and Kuwait respect the inviolability of the international boundary and the allocation of islands set out in the "Agreed Minutes Between the State of Kuwait and the Republic of Iraq Regarding the Restoration of Friendly Relations, Recognition and Related Matters", signed by them in the exercise of their sovereignty at Baghdad on 4 October 1963 and registered with the United Nations and published by the United Nations in document 7063, United Nations, Treaty Series, 1964;

 

(Iraq in violation asd they sent agents into Kuwait to conduct acts of terror incvluding the attempted murder of an American former chief of state.)

 

 

3. Calls upon the Secretary-General to lend his assistance to make arrangements with Iraq and Kuwait to demarcate the boundary between Iraq and Kuwait, drawing on appropriate material, including the map transmitted by Security Council document S/22412 and to report back to the Security Council within one month;

 

(UN in violation as the criminal Khofi Annan failed to perform his duty as specified.)

4. Decides to guarantee the inviolability of the above-mentioned international boundary and to take as appropriate all necessary measures to that end in accordance with the Charter of the United Nations;

 

(Following powers in violation of said border by armed incursion,

Iraq

Saudi Arabia

United Kingdom

United States

Kuwait

 

B

 

5. Requests the Secretary-General, after consulting with Iraq and Kuwait, to submit within three days to the Security Council for its approval a plan for the immediate deployment of a United Nations observer unit to monitor the Khor Abdullah and a demilitarized zone, which is hereby established, extending ten kilometres into Iraq and five kilometres into Kuwait from the boundary referred to in the "Agreed Minutes Between the State of Kuwait and the Republic of Iraq Regarding the Restoration of Friendly Relations, Recognition and Related Matters" of 4 October 1963; to deter violations of the boundary through its presence in and surveillance of the demilitarized zone; to observe any hostile or potentially hostile action mounted from the territory of one State to the other; and for the Secretary-General to report regularly to the Security Council on the operations of the unit, and immediately if there are serious violations of the zone or potential threats to peace;

 

(Iraq in violation as it demanded the removal of the force prior to the signing of a formal peace treaty.)

 

6. Notes that as soon as the Secretary-General notifies the Security Council of the completion of the deployment of the United Nations observer unit, the conditions will be established for the Member States cooperating with Kuwait in accordance with resolution 678 (1990) to bring their military presence in Iraq to an end consistent with resolution 686 (1991);

 

C

 

7. Invites Iraq to reaffirm unconditionally its obligations under the Geneva Protocol for the Prohibition of the Use in War of Asphyxiating, Poisonous or Other Gases, and of Bacteriological Methods of Warfare, signed at Geneva on 17 June 1925, and to ratify the Convention on the Prohibition of the Development, Production and Stockpiling of Bacteriological (Biological) and Toxin Weapons and on Their Destruction, of 10 April 1972;

(Iraq in violation. No evidence supplied for compliance by Iraq to the degree demanded in the ceasefire agreement.)

 

8. Decides that Iraq shall unconditionally accept the destruction, removal, or rendering harmless, under international supervision, of:

 

(Iraq in violation. Iraq demanded right of sovereignity which;

 

Iraq shall unconditionally accept the destruction, removal, or rendering harmless, under international supervision, of:

 

it plainly did not accept for these purposes the provisions of 8-15 all inclusive;

 

(a) All chemical and biological weapons and all stocks of agents and all related subsystems and components and all research, development, support and manufacturing facilities;

 

(:) All ballistic missiles with a range greater than 150 kilometres and related major parts, and repair and production facilities;

 

9. Decides, for the implementation of paragraph 8 above, the following:

 

(a) Iraq shall submit to the Secretary-General, within fifteen days of the adoption of the present resolution, a declaration of the locations, amounts and types of all items specified in paragraph 8 and agree to urgent, on-site inspection as specified below;

 

(:) The Secretary-General, in consultation with the appropriate Governments and, where appropriate, with the Director-General of the World Health Organization, within forty-five days of the passage of the present resolution, shall develop, and submit to the Council for approval, a plan calling for the completion of the following acts within forty-five days of such approval:

 

(i) The forming of a Special Commission, which shall carry out immediate on-site inspection of Iraq's biological, chemical and missile capabilities, based on Iraq's declarations and the designation of any additional locations by the Special Commission itself;

 

(ii) The yielding by Iraq of possession to the Special Commission for destruction, removal or rendering harmless, taking into account the requirements of public safety, of all items specified under paragraph 8 (a) above, including items at the additional locations designated by the Special Commission under paragraph 9 (:) (i) above and the destruction by Iraq, under the supervision of the Special Commission, of all its missile capabilities, including launchers, as specified under paragraph 8 (;) above;

 

(iii) The provision by the Special Commission of the assistance and cooperation to the Director-General of the International Atomic Energy Agency required in paragraphs 12 and 13 below;

 

10. Decides that Iraq shall unconditionally undertake not to use, develop, construct or acquire any of the items specified in paragraphs 8 and 9 above and requests the Secretary-General, in consultation with the Special Commission, to develop a plan for the future ongoing monitoring and verification of Iraq's compliance with this paragraph, to be submitted to the Security Council for approval within one hundred and twenty days of the passage of this resolution;

 

11. Invites Iraq to reaffirm unconditionally its obligations under the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons of 1 July 1968;

 

12. Decides that Iraq shall unconditionally agree not to acquire or develop nuclear weapons or nuclear-weapons-usable material or any subsystems or components or any research, development, support or manufacturing facilities related to the above; to submit to the Secretary-General and the Director-General of the International Atomic Energy Agency within fifteen days of the adoption of the present resolution a declaration of the locations, amounts, and types of all items specified above; to place all of its nuclear-weapons-usable materials under the exclusive control, for custody and removal, of the International Atomic Energy Agency, with the assistance and cooperation of the Special Commission as provided for in the plan of the Secretary-General discussed in paragraph 9 (:) above; to accept, in accordance with the arrangements provided for in paragraph 13 below, urgent on-site inspection and the destruction, removal or rendering harmless as appropriate of all items specified above; and to accept the plan discussed in paragraph 13 below for the future ongoing monitoring and verification of its compliance with these undertakings;

 

13. Requests the Director-General of the International Atomic Energy Agency, through the Secretary-General, with the assistance and cooperation of the Special Commission as provided for in the plan of the Secretary-General in paragraph 9 (:) above, to carry out immediate on-site inspection of Iraq's nuclear capabilities based on Iraq's declarations and the designation of any additional locations by the Special Commission; to develop a plan for submission to the Security Council within forty-five days calling for the destruction, removal, or rendering harmless as appropriate of all items listed in paragraph 12 above; to carry out the plan within forty-five days following approval by the Security Council; and to develop a plan, taking into account the rights and obligations of Iraq under the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons of 1 July 1968, for the future ongoing monitoring and verification of Iraq's compliance with paragraph 12 above, including an inventory of all nuclear material in Iraq subject to the Agency's verification and inspections to confirm that Agency safeguards cover all relevant nuclear activities in Iraq, to be submitted to the Security Council for approval within one hundred and twenty days of the passage of the present resolution;

 

14. Takes note that the actions to be taken by Iraq in paragraphs 8, 9, 10, 11, 12 and 13 of the present resolution represent steps towards the goal of establishing in the Middle East a zone free from weapons of mass destruction and all missiles for their delivery and the objective of a global ban on chemical weapons;

 

Turning from Iraqi obstructionism on the weapon inspection violations to war compensation to Kuwait.

 

D

 

15. Requests the Secretary-General to report to the Security Council on the steps taken to facilitate the return of all Kuwaiti property seized by Iraq, including a list of any property that Kuwait claims has not been returned or which has not been returned intact;

E

 

(Iraq in violation. Reparations to Kuwait were never fully paid nor legal restitution of stolen Kuwaiti property or weregeld for slain Kuwait citizens paid by Iraq.)

 

16. Reaffirms that Iraq, without prejudice to the debts and obligations of Iraq arising prior to 2 August 1990, which will be addressed through the normal mechanisms, is liable under international law for any direct loss, damage, including environmental damage and the depletion of natural resources, or injury to foreign Governments, nationals and corporations, as a result of Iraq's unlawful invasion and occupation of Kuwait;

 

(Iraq in violation. U.S. propertyu losses and deaths not compensated to this date. Example, U.S.S. Stark )

 

17. Decides that all Iraqi statements made since 2 August 1990 repudiating its foreign debt are null and void, and demands that Iraq adhere scrupulously to all of its obligations concerning servicing and repayment of its foreign debt;

(Iraq, France, Russia, Germany, UN, etc. in violation. See "Oil for Food" scandal.)

 

18. Decides also to create a fund to pay compensation for claims that fall within paragraph 16 above and to establish a Commission that will administer the fund;

 

(UN in violation.)

 

19. Directs the Secretary-General to develop and present to the Security Council for decision, no later than thirty days following the adoption of the present resolution, recommendations for the fund to meet the requirement for the payment of claims established in accordance with paragraph 18 above and for a programme to implement the decisions in paragraphs 16, 17 and 18 above, including: administration of the fund; mechanisms for determining the appropriate level of Iraq's contribution to the fund based on a percentage of the value of the exports of petroleum and petroleum products from Iraq not to exceed a figure to be suggested to the Council by the Secretary-General, taking into account the requirements of the people of Iraq, Iraq's payment capacity as assessed in conjunction with the international financial institutions taking into consideration external debt service, and the needs of the Iraqi economy; arrangements for ensuring that payments are made to the fund; the process by which funds will be allocated and claims paid; appropriate procedures for evaluating losses, listing claims and verifying their validity and resolving disputed claims in respect of Iraq's liability as specified in paragraph 16 above; and the composition of the Commission designated above;

 

(UN and Iraq in mutual violation.)

 

 

F

 

20. Decides, effective immediately, that the prohibitions against the sale or supply to Iraq of commodities or products, other than medicine and health supplies, and prohibitions against financial transactions related thereto contained in resolution 661 (1990) shall not apply to foodstuffs notified to the Security Council Committee established by resolution 661 (1990) concerning the situation between Iraq and Kuwait or, with the approval of that Committee, under the simplified and accelerated "no-objection" procedure, to materials and supplies for essential civilian needs as identified in the report of the Secretary-General dated 20 March 1991, and in any further findings of humanitarian need by the Committee;

 

((The following major nations are in violation;

 

China

Egypt

France

Germany

Iran

Italy

Iraq

Jordan

Kuwait

Russia and most of the other states of the CIS

Saudi Arabia

United Kingdom

United States

etc.

 

are violators.)

 

21. Decides that the Security Council shall review the provisions of paragraph 20 above every sixty days in the light of the policies and practices of the Government of Iraq, including the implementation of all relevant resolutions of the Security Council, for the purpose of determining whether to reduce or lift the prohibitions referred to therein;

 

(UN in violation.)

 

22. Decides that upon the approval by the Security Council of the programme called for in paragraph 19 above and upon Council agreement that Iraq has completed all actions contemplated in paragraphs 8, 9, 10, 11, 12 and 13 above, the prohibitions against the import of commodities and products originating in Iraq and the prohibitions against financial transactions related thereto contained in resolution 661 (1990) shall have no further force or effect;

 

(UN in violation. Sanctions lifted by force of arms.)

 

23. Decides that, pending action by the Security Council under paragraph 22 above, the Security Council Committee established by resolution 661 (1990) shall be empowered to approve, when required to assure adequate financial resources on the part of Iraq to carry out the activities under paragraph 20 above, exceptions to the prohibition against the import of commodities and products originating in Iraq;

 

(UN in violation. Issue setled by force of arms.)

 

24. Decides that, in accordance with resolution 661 (1990) and subsequent related resolutions and until a further decision is taken by the Security Council, all States shall continue to prevent the sale or supply, or the promotion or facilitation of such sale or supply, to Iraq by their nationals, or from their territories or using their flag vessels or aircraft, of:

 

(Nations in violation; [see above list under 20] for truce violators of provisions covered in 24-25.)

 

(

a) Arms and related materiel of all types, specifically including the sale or transfer through other means of all forms of conventional military equipment, including for paramilitary forces, and spare parts and components and their means of production, for such equipment;

 

(B) Items specified and defined in paragraphs 8 and 12 above not otherwise covered above;

 

© Technology under licensing or other transfer arrangements used in the production, utilization or stockpiling of items specified in subparagraphs (a) and (B) above;

 

(d) Personnel or materials for training or technical support services relating to the design, development, manufacture, use, maintenance or support of items specified in subparagraphs (a) and (B) above;

 

25. Calls upon all States and international organizations to act strictly in accordance with paragraph 24 above, notwithstanding the existence of any contracts, agreements, licences or any other arrangements;

 

26. Requests the Secretary-General, in consultation with appropriate Governments, to develop within sixty days, for the approval of the Security Council, guidelines to facilitate full international implementation of paragraphs 24 and 25 above and paragraph 27 below, and to make them available to all States and to establish a procedure for updating these guidelines periodically;

 

(UN in violation of course.)

 

27. Calls upon all States to maintain such national controls and procedures and to take such other actions consistent with the guidelines to be established by the Security Council under paragraph 26 above as may be necessary to ensure compliance with the terms of paragraph 24 above, and calls upon international organizations to take all appropriate steps to assist in ensuring such full compliance;

 

(Violators are France, Germany, Iraq, and Russia.)

 

28. Agrees to review its decisions in paragraphs 22, 23, 24 and 25 above, except for the items specified and defined in paragraphs 8 and 12 above, on a regular basis and in any case one hundred and twenty days following passage of the present resolution, taking into account Iraq's compliance with the resolution and general progress towards the control of armaments in the region;

 

(UN in violation of course.)

 

29. Decides that all States, including Iraq, shall take the necessary measures to ensure that no claim shall lie at the instance of the Government of Iraq, or of any person or body in Iraq, or of any person claiming through or for the benefit of any such person or body, in connection with any contract or other transaction where its performance was affected by reason of the measures taken by the Security Council in resolution 661 (1990) and related resolutions;

 

(UN in violation.)

 

G

 

30. Decides that, in furtherance of its commitment to facilitate the repatriation of all Kuwaiti and third country nationals, Iraq shall extend all necessary cooperation to the International Committee of the Red Cross, providing lists of such persons, facilitating the access of the International Committee of the Red Cross to all such persons wherever located or detained and facilitating the search by the International Committee of the Red Cross for those Kuwaiti and third country nationals still unaccounted for;

 

(Iraq in violation. There are Kuwaitis[and Americans] still not accounted, as a result of the Iraqi war of aggression.)

 

31. Invites the International Committee of the Red Cross to keep the Secretary-General apprised as appropriate of all activities undertaken in connection with facilitating the repatriation or return of all Kuwaiti and third country nationals or their remains present in Iraq on or after 2 August 1990;

 

(IRC has failed to make a satisfactory report to this date.)

 

H

 

32. Requires Iraq to inform the Security Council that it will not commit or support any act of international terrorism or allow any organization directed towards commission of such acts to operate within its territory and to condemn unequivocally and renounce all acts, methods and practices of terrorism;

 

(Iraq in violation. Saddam made inducement/recruitment payments to PLO suicide bombers against Israelis up to the month the United States invaded Iraq.)

 

I

 

33. Declares that, upon official notification by Iraq to the Secretary-General and to the Security Council of its acceptance of the provisions above, a formal cease-fire is effective between Iraq and Kuwait and the Member States cooperating with Kuwait in accordance with resolution 678 (1990);

 

(Iraq agrees to this; but due to the violations by all named violating parties above; this agreement is null and void. A technical state of war between the UN and Iraq never ceased under IL accordingly.)

34. Decides to remain seized of the matter and to take such further steps as may be required for the implementation of the present resolution and to secure peace and security in the area.

 

Nice wordage that just affirms the obvious, that any violation renders all the pretty words meaningless .

 

That is the argument that should have been made publicly and honestly.

 

Legally the United States and Iraq never actually were in a state of ceasefire undert IL or UN Resolution 687. The war was just on hold until the Americans were ready for round two.

[alxian]

don't really disagree with any of this. My only point is, as I think is the next logical step after your last line here is that, its better to have the UN and have it do what it does that have a..

 

... single world gov't

[pgrmdave]

A single world government wouldn't stop anything. There are a lot of countries that fight internally, and it is often because there are groups of people within the nation who feel that the government is run unfairly by another. It is people's pride in their culture that spurs it, not people's pride in their nations. If there were one world culture, that might work, but I don't know if that would actually be a good thing...

[alxian]

make them all wear cute little uniforms and eat gruel until they comply.

[Dark Mind]

I love this Forum :hihi:.

[Qfwfq]

Does anybody here have memories of Perez de Cuellar?

 

Trouble is you won't always find an equal replacement. Especially if you don't look hard enough.

 

the argument can be made that the veto powers of the big five pretty much cause a stalemate on most contentious issues, so in this respect, the power of the UN is indeed limited.

I've been saying for years, ban that veto power. It would be the first step toward a better UN.

 

The downside though is that unilateral action like Iraq II has made the US a pariah, so the alternative is no panacea either.

I'm not really sure if you mean to imply a nexus, veto power ==> US unilateral intervention in Iraq? :hihi:

 

I wouldn't go for a One-world gov't either. The next time I, ahem, am given the chance of improving the UN, I'll change it from being a diplomatic assembly into more of a supernational institution. Something like a federation. As soon as the members have ratified my new Constitution, nobody can accuse it of being powerless and ineffective. :evil:

[Biochemist]

Well, of course it depends on what you mean by that. We successfully "contained" N. Korea and Saddam (1991 version), and the Serbs, based on UN action based on force. ...

None of those examples were UN actions. The first two were led by the US. The second was mostly NATO.

 

If the UN dissolved, the only penalty would be a very brief loss of rent in lower Manhattan. Which would, of course be immediately replaced by business that would provide far greater value.

[Biochemist]

...There would never have been UN approval to do anything in Iraq because those with a vested interest in the oil-for-food program would just continue to veto any action....

I am quite surprised that so many have forgotten that the current action in Iraq was fully approved by the UN.

 

Like it matters.

[Biochemist]

.... My only point is, as I think is the next logical step after your last line here is that, its better to have the UN and have it do what it does that have a bunch of countries running around shooting at each other at the first sign of conflict.....

There is no evidence that the UN has any effect on mitigating any conflict. There is pretty good evidence that specific coalitions for specific purposes are far more effective that the UN.

[Biochemist]

...It's not useless. It does provide alot of needed humanitarian assistance. ...

Again, there is no evidence that UN humanitarian assistance is any better in ANY example that private humanitarian assistance. And in many cases, it is not nearly as good.

[Buffy]

There is no evidence that the UN has any effect on mitigating any conflict. There is pretty good evidence that specific coalitions for specific purposes are far more effective that the UN.

Its pretty much impossible to argue against that position of course, because its easy to simply say that any coalition that's been formed within the context of the UN that was successful in the past--and its hard to argue that there are none, but again that's a judgement call and lots of people argue that Korea and Kosovo were "failures"--could have been formed without it. There are some coalitions (like the Soviet "coalition" in Afganistan), that have been abject failures, but that's not a counter argument to your statement either.

 

I'll still argue that a UN sponsored coalition holds much more moral authority than any "coalition of the willing". Have they been "more effective?" Its all a matter of interpretation, and those who are manifestly against the UN will never agree to that notion. Is the power of the UN limited? Sure, but just because it cannot solve all problems, is it worthless? I don't think so myself, and I think there are plenty of excuses for other alternatives when the UN fails, but I think its throwing the baby out with the bathwater to say this arguement proves that the UN serves no useful purpose in world conflicts. I don't think any of us would like to return to the polarization of the sixties and seventies or worse to the self-centered, highly nationalistic world in the decades prior to WWI.

 

Cheers,

Buffy

[Biochemist]

...its easy to simply say that any coalition that's been formed within the context of the UN that was successful in the past...could have been formed without it.

Can you name one???

..is it worthless?

"Worthless" is not the question. The question is: "Is the UN worth the cost?". The cost in this case is not just the egregious amount of cash, but also the incredible obstruction of the bureaucracy. The only countries advantaged by the UN are the countries that are serious human rights violators, because they can use the UN to obstruct other credible initiatives to mitigate thier heinous activities. Witness Sudan on the huiman rights commission.

 

Well, there is also France. If France did not have a security council seat, solely as a vestige of their "victory" in WWII, they would have absolutlely no world power. It is ludicrous that the senior veto positions are given to a set of countries that happoened to be allies in a single war in the first half of the 20th century. The relevance of that group, and the power balances of that group have long since been sunsetted by current events.

 

The UN is an anachronism that should be replaced by an organization that supports democracy. The UN does not.