Questions...

[techhowse]

Some Questions About Hydrogen...

 

ok, these might sound like silly Q's. But i'd rather be a fool for 5 mins than forever.

I might sound naive but who cares, here it goes:

 

1. Why can't we all switch from coal-oil to alternative power fairly soon?

 

2. If hydrogen is cheap, why isn't it currently widely used in automobiles?

 

3. What if there was no longer a need for fuel providers. In other words, how would the authorities/fuel companies react if we all could be self sufficient, energy usage wise incl. domestic usage (energy at home) and automobile?

 

ps. one doesn't have to answer all of the questions in 1 hit if need be (would be great if one can do so). A response to one or two of any three is acceptable.

[infamous]

Some Questions About Hydrogen...

 

ok, these might sound like silly Q's. But i'd rather be a fool for 5 mins than forever.

I might sound naive but who cares, here it goes:

 

1. Why can't we all switch from coal-oil to alternative power fairly soon?

The use of coal and oil is by far the cheapest form of energy we have available at the present.

 

2. If hydrogen is cheap, why isn't it currently widely used in automobiles?

Hydrogen is not really that cheap to produce. To isolate it from water by the process of electrolisis takes a considerable amount of electric current. Where do we get this electricity if not from fossil fuels or nuclear energy?

 

3. What if there was no longer a need for fuel providers. In other words, how would the authorities/fuel companies react if we all could be self sufficient, energy usage wise incl. domestic usage (energy at home) and automobile?

I'm sure they would resist any attempt to be taken out of the equation. However, at present they are holding all the cards and I don't think that state of affairs will change too much in the near future.

 

BTW; Welcom to Hypography, I hope you'll enjoy all the discussion and we all look forward to also hearing your points of view.

[UncleAl]

Thermodynamics. Chemical and Engineering News 83(34) 42 (2005) "Filling up with hydrogen" (22 August 2005)

 

An eldritch hydrogen storage modality holds 53 moles H2/liter at ambient conditions with 36 MJ/liter recoverable energy overall. Compare with 8 MJ/liter for cryogenic liquid H2 (C&EN published value). DOE's 2010 automotive requirement is 45 kg H2/m^3 storage. This modality achieves more than 100 kg H2/m^3 in 2005.

 

No storage degradation or generated waste occurs in its 100% recycle during a decade of daily use. National distribution networks are in place. Compatible engines are in commercial production. After you drain your tank of diesel fuel you can refill it within minutes.

[UncleAl]

1. Why can't we all switch from coal-oil to alternative power fairly soon?

You cannot mine alternative energy. You cannot make petrochemicals from alternative energy. Area necessary to generate 1 GW electrical, theoretical minimum,

 

Area, mi^2 Modality

=============

1000 biomass

300 wind

60 solar

0.3 nuclear

 

http://www.news.cornell.edu/releases/Aug01/corn-basedethanol.hrs.html

 

Prof. David Pimentel of Cornell University calculated energy consumed in growing corn, processing the grain, and distilling ethanol versus the energy generated by its combustion. It requires 131,000 British thermal units (Btus) to produce one gallon of ethanol, which yields 77,000 Btus of fuel energy. That's a 70% net energy *loss.* The federal government paid tens of $billions of tax credits and subsidies to ethanol producers like agri-giant Archer-Daniels-Midland.

 

Photosynthesis is very optimistically equivalent to producing 15 bbl/day-mile^2 of diesel fuel while ignoring all energy inputs.

 

2. If hydrogen is cheap, why isn't it currently widely used in automobiles?

Hydrogen is the most expensive component in a refinery - the cheapest source of hydrogen. There is no national distribution modality for hdyrogen. There is no tankage that safely holds a usable amount for a mobile engine.

 

Chemical & Engineering News 83(34) 42 (2005) "Filling up with hydrogen"

 

An eldritch hydrogen storage modality holds 53 moles H2/liter at ambient conditions with 36 megajoules/liter recoverable energy overall. Compare with 8 MJ/liter for cryogenic liquid H2. DOE's 2010 requirement is 45 kg H2/m^3 storage. This modality achieves more than 100 kg H2/m^3 in 2005.

 

No storage degradation or generated waste occurs in its 100% recycle during a decade of daily use. National distribution networks are in place. Compatible engines are in commercial production. After you drain your tank of diesel fuel you can refill it within minutes.

 

3. What if there was no longer a need for fuel providers. In other words, how would the authorities/fuel companies react if we all could be self sufficient, energy usage wise incl. domestic usage (energy at home) and automobile?

Do you have any idea how much energy the US uses/year? It has held reasonably steady at 60 bbl oil equiv/capita. 1 boe = 1700 kWhr-thermal. There are 290 million US folk or

 

1.74x10^10 boe/year, or

2.96x10^13 kWhr-thermal/year, or

1.065x10^20 joules/year, or

 

the equivalent of 1.2 metric tonnes of matter 100% converted into energy, E=mc^2. There's a whole lot of stuff burned to get that energy out. A nuclear megatonne is 46.51 grams of matter converted to energy. GRAMS. Are ya gonna alternatively burn algae, git, or catch wind?

 

Enviro-whinerism: Expensive, shoddy, deadly. THEY LIED TO YOU, and you swallowed it whole,

 

http://fti.neep.wisc.edu/neep602/lecture4.html

 

"Shut up and calculate," Richard Feynman when asked to comment on the meaning of quantum mechanics.

[Dark Mind]

Isn't the remaining world supply of accessible fossil fuel supposed to run out around 2025?

 

Just what I've heard :hihi:...

[Tormod]

Isn't the remaining world supply of accessible fossil fuel supposed to run out around 2025?

 

Just what I've heard :lol:...

 

From where? :lol: Facts, please. :hihi:

[Dark Mind]

I'll look into it right away, sir!

 

How foolish of me to just post something that "I just heard"...

 

Idiot! Idiot! Idiot! :hihi:

 

Just kidding :lol:. But I'll seriously see if I can find a source :lol:.

[Dark Mind]

Conservative predictions are that conventional oil production will peak in 2007. There are many other predictions, one example is that the world conventional oil production will peak somewhere between 2020 and 2050, but that the output is likely to increase at a substantially slower rate after 2020 (Greene, 2003). Another recent study predicts the peak to somewhere between 2004 and 2037 [14]. Both the IAE and the EIA project that conventional oil production will continue to increase until at least 2025-2030.

Voila! :hihi:

 

Hubbert Peak

[Tormod]

Voila! :hihi:

 

Hubbert Peak

 

Good work. Did you also read the twenty (or so) criticisms at the bottom of that page?

 

Like this one...

http://www.gasresources.net/Lynch(Hubbert-Deffeyes).htm

 

:lol:

[Dark Mind]

Yep :hihi:. But I found a location I might have heard it at :lol:.

[techhowse]

You cannot mine alternative energy. You cannot make petrochemicals from alternative energy. Area necessary to generate 1 GW electrical, theoretical minimum,

 

Area, mi^2 Modality

=============

1000 biomass

300 wind

60 solar

0.3 nuclear

 

http://www.news.cornell.edu/releases/Aug01/corn-basedethanol.hrs.html

 

Prof. David Pimentel of Cornell University calculated energy consumed in growing corn, processing the grain, and distilling ethanol versus the energy generated by its combustion. It requires 131,000 British thermal units (Btus) to produce one gallon of ethanol, which yields 77,000 Btus of fuel energy. That's a 70% net energy *loss.* The federal government paid tens of $billions of tax credits and subsidies to ethanol producers like agri-giant Archer-Daniels-Midland.

 

Photosynthesis is very optimistically equivalent to producing 15 bbl/day-mile^2 of diesel fuel while ignoring all energy inputs.

 

 

Hydrogen is the most expensive component in a refinery - the cheapest source of hydrogen. There is no national distribution modality for hdyrogen. There is no tankage that safely holds a usable amount for a mobile engine.

 

Chemical & Engineering News 83(34) 42 (2005) "Filling up with hydrogen"

 

An eldritch hydrogen storage modality holds 53 moles H2/liter at ambient conditions with 36 megajoules/liter recoverable energy overall. Compare with 8 MJ/liter for cryogenic liquid H2. DOE's 2010 requirement is 45 kg H2/m^3 storage. This modality achieves more than 100 kg H2/m^3 in 2005.

 

No storage degradation or generated waste occurs in its 100% recycle during a decade of daily use. National distribution networks are in place. Compatible engines are in commercial production. After you drain your tank of diesel fuel you can refill it within minutes.

 

 

Do you have any idea how much energy the US uses/year? It has held reasonably steady at 60 bbl oil equiv/capita. 1 boe = 1700 kWhr-thermal. There are 290 million US folk or

 

1.74x10^10 boe/year, or

2.96x10^13 kWhr-thermal/year, or

1.065x10^20 joules/year, or

 

the equivalent of 1.2 metric tonnes of matter 100% converted into energy, E=mc^2. There's a whole lot of stuff burned to get that energy out. A nuclear megatonne is 46.51 grams of matter converted to energy. GRAMS. Are ya gonna alternatively burn algae, git, or catch wind?

 

Enviro-whinerism: Expensive, shoddy, deadly. THEY LIED TO YOU, and you swallowed it whole,

 

http://fti.neep.wisc.edu/neep602/lecture4.html

 

"Shut up and calculate," Richard Feynman when asked to comment on the meaning of quantum mechanics.

 

Thanks to all who replied.

 

UncleAl,

 

Now, what I've gathered from your reply, I'll comment on.

 

Point 1.

I understand that one cannot mine alternative energy, But one can obtain hydrogen in the following way:

 

1. Obtain seawater

2. Purify water and/or add electolytes

3. Source power from; Geothermal, wind, solar or hydro-electric power and electrolyse

 

Point 2.

If we follow the above step, hydrogen should be relatively free. As for the tanks for mobile engines/automobiles. Dynatek has come up with some great looking tanks.

 

Links: http://www.dynetek.com/cylinders.php

Oh by the way, you might want to check this baby out: http://www.supercars.net/cars/2739.html

 

Point 3.

Say everyone has their own power source (not necessarily hydrogen powered), then we could possibly eliminate the need for paying for fuel, electricity, gas (cooking), etc.

 

I know that some of the advanced technology is out there but the big-guys in lab coats or your average looking joe-schmoe are keeping it hush-hush..

 

Part of what I'm about is to not to have a heavy reliance on those Middle-Eastern countries for fuel. We're losing our image here!

 

Here's someone who's taken in on what I've said.. at least someone's hearing me.

 

http://foxxaero.homestead.com/files/t36w01.jpg credits to: Hydroscope

 

Stepping back, UncleAl, or anyone else in that matter, I would like you to tell me what is wrong with my assumptions.

[UncleAl]

But one can obtain hydrogen in the following way:

 

1. Obtain seawater

2. Purify water and/or add electolytes

3. Source power from; Geothermal, wind, solar or hydro-electric power and electrolyse

 

Point 2.

If we follow the above step, hydrogen should be relatively free.

If electricity costs $(US)0.11 out of your electric socket, then any other form of energy made from it must cost more - thermodynamic inefficiencies, storage and transport costs, waste disposal, labor, amortized infrastructure cost, land rent or mortgage, liability insurance, maintenance, environmental impacts, lawyers, feeding the bureaucracy that runs it all... Officially protecting it from terrorists. <remove remark>*****</remove remark>

 

No hydrogen is cheaper than refinery hydrogen - it is made from waste inputs and then locally consumed - and it is still too expensive to use for anything except vital value-added chemistries. That is the real world, git. If there were any science fiction cheaper route to hydrogen, refineries would use that one.

 

US annual energy consumption is equal to 1.2 metric tonnes of matter 100% converted into energy, E=mc^2. You cannot begin to wrap your mind around that. Somebody with a daffodil threaded through an earobe has no meaningful input.

[GAHD]

If radioactive material wasn't a legal issue, a nuclear battery would by far exceed every other form of power source. There are a fe designes for nuclear batteries shelved in the patent offices because of the problems getting and selling one necessary component without getting shot.

[Turtle]

___It looks like President Shrub agrees with Al:

http://www.spacedaily.com/news/nuclear-civil-05m.html

___PS What is a "git"? :eek2:

 

___Here is a fine site on US nuclear plants:

http://www.nei.org/doc.asp?catnum=3&catid=13

The last nuclear plant brought on line in US was 1996 in Tenessee. I note Illinois produces 50% of its power from nuclear, the highest in the country.

[kennth hickford]

B) B) B)

Some Questions About Hydrogen...

 

ok, these might sound like silly Q's. But i'd rather be a fool for 5 mins than forever.

I might sound naive but who cares, here it goes:

 

1. Why can't we all switch from coal-oil to alternative power fairly soon?

 

2. If hydrogen is cheap, why isn't it currently widely used in automobiles?

 

3. What if there was no longer a need for fuel providers. In other words, how would the authorities/fuel companies react if we all could be self sufficient, energy usage wise incl. domestic usage (energy at home) and automobile?

 

ps. one doesn't have to answer all of the questions in 1 hit if need be (would be great if one can do so). A response to one or two of any three is acceptable.

[kennth hickford]

B) B) B)

Some Questions About Hydrogen...

 

ok, these might sound like silly Q's. But i'd rather be a fool for 5 mins than forever.

I might sound naive but who cares, here it goes:

 

1. Why can't we all switch from coal-oil to alternative power fairly soon?

 

2. If hydrogen is cheap, why isn't it currently widely used in automobiles?

 

3. What if there was no longer a need for fuel providers. In other words, how would the authorities/fuel companies react if we all could be self sufficient, energy usage wise incl. domestic usage (energy at home) and automobile?

 

ps. one doesn't have to answer all of the questions in 1 hit if need be (would be great if one can do so). A response to one or two of any three is acceptable.

 

NOT SURE IF I AM DOING THIS RIGHT, SO FORGIVE IF IT ALL GOES PEAR SHAPED. SORRY FOR ALL CAPITALS, KEYBOARD HAS A STUCK KEY!

 

THE ANSWER TO YOUR QUESTION, " IF HYDROGEN IS CHEAP, WHY ISN'T IT CURRENTLY USED IN AUTOMBILES"?

 

THE SHORT ANSWER IS VESTED INTERESTS,.......THINK ABOUT IT,.......DO YOU THINK THE OIL COMPANIES AND OTHER MANUFACTURERS WHO RELY ON THE PRODUCTION OF OIL WOULD ALLOW SOMEONE TO COME ALONG, AND REDUCE THEIR COMPANY VALUE TO ZERO OVERNIGHT WITH A METHOD OF PRODUCING CHEAP HYDROGEN? YEAH,....RIGHT,..! THINK OF ALL THE PEOPLE WHO WOULD BE UNEMPLOYED OVERNIGHT,...........THINK OF THE KNOCK ON EFFECT OF THE POLITICAL PROBLEMS WITH MILLIONS UNEMPLOYED!

 

THERE ARE PROBABLY MANY OTHER THINGS THAT COULD BE IMPROVED IN THE GLOBAL WELFARE, BUT, AS LONG AS THERE ARE VESTED INTERESTS WHO HAVE THEIR HAND ON THE PRODUCTION, DISTRIBUTION, MONOPOLY, ETC, ETC, WE HAVE AN UPHILL STRUGGLE TO REDRESS THE BALANCE!

A SIMILAR PROBLEM EXISTS OVER HERE, FROM BEING AN EXPORTER OF GAS AND OIL, WE ARE NOW DEPENDANT ON UNSTABLE REGIMES FOR OUR ENERGY SUPPLIES, SO, THE DECISION WILL HAVE TO BE MADE, DO WE BUILD NUCLEAR RACTORS TO PRODUCE OUR ELECTRICAL ENERGY, OR, PUT OURSEVES A THE MERCY OF UNSTABLE POSSIBLY MEGLOMANIAC SUPPLIERS OF GAS AND OIL?........WE WILL HAVE NO CHOICE BUT TO GO THE NUCLEAR OPTION ROUTE!

[Errin OH]

:hihi: :) :beer:

 

THE SHORT ANSWER IS VESTED INTERESTS,.......THINK ABOUT IT,.......DO YOU THINK THE OIL COMPANIES AND OTHER MANUFACTURERS WHO RELY ON THE PRODUCTION OF OIL WOULD ALLOW SOMEONE TO COME ALONG, AND REDUCE THEIR COMPANY VALUE TO ZERO OVERNIGHT WITH A METHOD OF PRODUCING CHEAP HYDROGEN? YEAH,....RIGHT,..! THINK OF ALL THE PEOPLE WHO WOULD BE UNEMPLOYED OVERNIGHT,...........THINK OF THE KNOCK ON EFFECT OF THE POLITICAL PROBLEMS WITH MILLIONS UNEMPLOYED!

 

:dog: You actually beleive this tripe? Just like the 100mpg carb sitting on top of a 1960's V8 :beer: But a'lass I did to at one time too. Fact is, any form of energy that can, will replace oil/gass. And there isn't anyone who can stop it. Regulate it to death maybe (like Nucelar). More likely just tax it just out of reach (just cause they can) :beer: Solor isn't free. By the time you install a system big enough, without changing life styles, to go off grid, you just paid for the next 15 years worth of electric bills. Then about 7 years into it you begin to change out batteries and likely never actually get it any cheaper than just being on grid. Hydrogen along the same lines. Even if you use a low power solor system to make your own. It would take almost 2 years supply of gas just to get set up (20 mpg, 20000 miles a year, @2.50 g = $2500 vs a $5000 "not on the market yet" home fueling system). Then it take a week to fill your tank(s) and who knows how much to mod your car. Then there is the whole maintenance issue, no lubrication in hydgrn, hard on engines. You may fell good about it but in the long run you be better off stoping at the gas station.

 

The key is goning to be effecency. Doing more with less. Like 15w florscent bulbs that do the same work as a 100w incondesent. Light weigh composiste cars that can get 50-60-70 mpg. Could you imagine the possiblities if the avg house hold could be ran on say 5-10Kw a month vs the 1000-1500Kw we currently use. I have looked into Solor, Wind, Hydrogen, Bio, Methane and just about any combo of, just can't get it down to a point where it is ecomonailly fesable. Plus, I have no way of buying the next 20 years worth of fuel today.:beer:

 

Don't get me wrong there are some good ideas out there. I really like the Solor dish that drives a 25KW gen with a Sterling engine. If we could just get it scaled down to an 8' dish (from 35') @ say 10-12KW. Still, it'd likely cost 20-30 grand and you'd still have to have a common grid (and/or batteries), plus figure some way to maintain it, for peak demand and/or night time. :beer:

 

Infamous got it in the first response. :( Alternatives are just not at the point where anything is as cheap, as easy, and redilly avalible at present. But someday......... :cocktail: