Seeker's Questions: Mirror and the Virtual Image

[saidevo]

What I see in a mirror when I look into it is an image of

my face. This is a virtual image, according to Science.

It's virtual because the light rays reflected off the mirror

would never meet, so can't form a real image that can be

recorded. Science also says that the image is at the same

distance as the source is. That is, if my face is one foot

away from the mirror, the image also will be formed one foot

into the mirror, though the mirror itself might be only a

few inches thick.

 

Thess facts throw up some questions:

1. What is the nature of the virtual image? The source is

reflected, atom for atom, and photon for photon by the

reflecting surface of the mirror, which is usually a thin

coat of mercury. What exactly is formed on this reflecting

surface? Do the atoms of mercury undergo any change so as

to reproduce the color and texture of the source atoms?

 

2. If the image is formed at the same distance inside the

mirror as the source is in front of it, where exactly is

this image formed? In the space behind the mirror? If so,

what exactly is formed in the space? If not, where and how

exactly the image is formed in the mirror?

 

I have no idea if Science or Theosophy has any answers for

these questions. Readers may please enlighten me.

 

Regards,

saidevo

[Tormod]

I am not aware of "science" saying that mirrors show a virtual image. They show a very real reflection of the photons which reach it. When you place yourself three feet from a mirror, you will obviously appear exactly three feet "into" the mirror as well - but what you are seeing is a mirror image of yourself. There is nothing virtual about it. It does not have a life on it's own - you move, your reflection moves, only mirrored.

 

Place a recorder anywhere and you can record what the mirror reflects - both before and after the reflection if you wish (in fact, you need a very very good recorder to see any difference "before" and "after" the reflection since the photons you are recording moves at the speed of light.

 

I don't know where mercury comes into the equation.

[emessay]

I am still thinking that mirrors effect possibly show virtual image in quantum state along inner side of microtubule. Double-helix structure of DNA also shows symmetrical mirrors. In nature , we can see also complexity of mirror and lens effect, between small ants and big ants, house cat and lion. Like we do print photograph we may choose small size or postcard size. If we think that inner-side of microtubule is 'function of two dimensional mirror', so what will happen in there ? This is my speculative ideas and I think we need to develop understanding like gravitational lens effect, possibly we may discover 'micro-gravity mirror effect' or other quantum state in our conscious mind-body. Negative film show us an example typical 'two dimensional mirror or lens machines' so we may print colourful reality of picture. Why a species have their own stability like 'their own mirror' in million years. Simply words, It's only human-kind understand his own mirror, till now.

[Erasmus00]

Thess facts throw up some questions:

1. What is the nature of the virtual image? The source is

reflected, atom for atom, and photon for photon by the

reflecting surface of the mirror, which is usually a thin

coat of mercury. What exactly is formed on this reflecting

surface? Do the atoms of mercury undergo any change so as

to reproduce the color and texture of the source atoms?

 

Virtual doesn't mean the image isn't "real" it's just an optical term for the fact that the light rays never come together through a focal point. The electrons in the reflecting metal do indeed undergo a slight change as the light drives surface currents.

 

2. If the image is formed at the same distance inside the

mirror as the source is in front of it, where exactly is

this image formed? In the space behind the mirror? If so,

what exactly is formed in the space? If not, where and how

exactly the image is formed in the mirror?

 

It just appears as if the image is located behind the mirror. That is the whole idea of a "virtual" image. The source of the light you are seeing is actually yourself.

-Will

[Qfwfq]

I once heard that there is a Zen koan about a monk that became enlightened one evening, while she was carrying a pale of water in the moonlight. The bottom of the old vessel suddenly fell through. Her thought was: "No more water in pale; no more Moon in water."

 

:evil:

[emessay]

But I think mirror would initiate human fancy in looking this vast universe. Imagine 10 million yrs ago first Homo Erectus watch his mirror image strangely in a silent pond. Imagine these possible responses :

 

1st : "Who's there" ? Ghost !! -->>> He's run away

2nd : "Maybe god in there !!!" --->He's still keep watching

3rd : "I am so embarrassing" ---> He's thinking to use cloth

4th : "There's nothing, it's only water image"--->No problem, he's also still thinking

5th : "Who am I ??"

6th : .............................next and next.........

 

Maybe Fred Alan Wolf could help :

 

1. Matter is created by mind

2. If nobody observes reality, reality doesn't exist

3. reality is created by the observer, where is the observer? Wolf claims the observer is not in the brain and it is not in the body

4. the observer, by observing, becomes the body

5.Mind "invents" a fictitious body and then it starts believing that "it is" the body

 

I am still thinking in front of mirror : "The observer is not in the brain and it is not in the body"...............................

[Eclogite]

Interesting reflections. :evil:

[Qfwfq]

Another "interesting reflection": ever seen a good hologram? That amazing too?

 

Indeed, although a hologram can be a real or a virtual image, there isn't really that much difference. Dirichlet, boundary conditions determine the field...

[emessay]

The experiments for 'consciousness test' like this :

 

1) >>>>>> :hihi:

2) ____________________

 

3) >>>>>> :)

 

1) my body+mind

2) 'hypothetical quantum mirror' thin layer two dimension

3) mirror image of my body+mind

 

The questions are :

a) What will happen if my body+mind is being small in quantum state in looking mirror

:hihi: In quantum state, mirror image = virtual image ?

c) Where is my consciousness/mind [the observer] now standing ?

d) Is there 'hypothetical quantum mirror' functioning in micro-cosmic level especially in life driven-function[ cell divsion,growth,etc]

 

The nature of data :

- DNA pairs molecules have symmetrical mirror

- All species have symmetrical mirror

- Twins look like 'equal symmetrical mirror'.

[Qfwfq]

:eek2:

[saidevo]

Sri Sankaran at Yahoo! Spiritual Need has come out with this reply to the query, which appears to answer the two main points I have raised. I am posting the gist of his reply for information. Interested readers may look up:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/spiritualneed/ (message 878, Sep 20, 2005).

 

1. Photons from the source of light held in front of a mirror are bounced back by electrons in the reflecting surface when they are hit. The rate of such bounce back is high in metals.

 

2. The photons travel the same distance back when they are reflected, and this creates the illusion of depth.

 

3. When photons from the source excite some electrons, the vibrations appear as color, which accounts for the rainbow effect we see in the reflecting surface. Even with mercury coated mirrors, where the reflecting surface is folded at the edges, you can see this rainbow effect.

 

I thank the members for the various replies given that created a lively discussion on the subject.

 

Regards,

saidevo

[Qfwfq]

;) Sorry:

 

2) is totally fallacious, and I don't know what you mean with 3). The main reason for using reflector telescopes is to avoid chromatic aberrations.

[Erasmus00]

;) Sorry:

 

2) is totally fallacious, and I don't know what you mean with 3). The main reason for using reflector telescopes is to avoid chromatic aberrations.

 

Umm.. how is 2 fallacious? A photon travels a distance D to the mirror and gets reflected. The reflected photon then travels the same distance D back to the eye. This is, in fact, what gives the illusion of depth to the mirror. (i.e. ,the image appears to be a distance 2D away from the observer)

-Will

[Qfwfq]

Umm...

A photon travels a distance D to the mirror and gets reflected. The reflected photon then travels the same distance D back to the eye.

You seem to be supposing that the photon has originally come from the eye. How about when you are looking at something else?

;)

 

This is, in fact, what gives the illusion of depth to the mirror. (i.e. ,the image appears to be a distance 2D away from the observer)

When photons end up on the retina, the retina and the whole visual system don't have the faintest idea of how far the photon has travelled.

 

Try playing ping-pong with one eye, or anything that demands judging distances. With only one eye you only have perspective, with two eyes you also have parallax. These are geometrical and only depend on the exact direction light is coming into the eye from.

 

A magnifying glass works by altering perspective. A set of four mirrors can alter parallax.

[Erasmus00]

Umm...

You seem to be supposing that the photon has originally come from the eye. How about when you are looking at something else?

:rolleyes:

 

I'm talking about the simplest optical diagram of a mirror, and the simplest lines to analyze are always the perpendiculars. The "reason" you see an image "behind" the mirror is that the light that leaves the image plane travels over a perpendicular distance of 2D before it gets to your eyes. When your eyes do what they are designed to do, and reconstruct the image you get a depth of twice the distance between you and the mirror.

 

When photons end up on the retina, the retina and the whole visual system don't have the faintest idea of how far the photon has travelled.[/qUOTE]

 

Thats true for one photon, but not for many photons. Thats why geometrical optics works. Your eyes reconstruct from several different rays, where exactly the source of the light is in your visual plane. In trying to explain the mirror, without resorting to describing how your eyes work, the simplest explanation is that photons leaving the image travel over a depth of 2D before entering your eye. While not precise, it captures the important point of what is going on.

-Will

[Turtle]

___I have some further reflections on this topic of mirrors.

___First, I have one virtually blind eye & so no depth perception to observe how far "into" a mirror an image is. Virtual to me refers to a sameness that is almost complete, but not quite.

___Secondly, I want to point out that vanity mirrors constitute "back surface" mirrors & have additional reflections from the glass surface as well as reflections trapped between the inner surface of the glass & the metal coating the back surface. Astronomical & LASER equipment make use of "front surface" mirrors to avoid these additional reflections; the trade off is that front surface mirrors require care in cleaning so as not to scratch them.

___I have more commonly seen aluminium as the metal coating? :rolleyes:

___Here is a mirror poser that I never heard an "authoritative" answer to; why is your mirror image reversed left to right but not top to bottom?

___I have to reserve any comment on the mind business in a quatum state :hihi: Please elaborate? :)

[Qfwfq]

I'm talking about the simplest optical diagram of a mirror, and the simplest lines to analyze are always the perpendiculars. The "reason" you see an image "behind" the mirror is that the light that leaves the image plane travels over a perpendicular distance of 2D before it gets to your eyes.

How about when you see the reflection of the tree that's outside the window behind you. Where does 2D come into that? No light travels from the object to the virtual image.

 

Thats true for one photon, but not for many photons. Thats why geometrical optics works.

Exactly. One photon isn't enough. However, geometrical optics have nothing to do with how far the light has travelled, only with the angle it comes from when reaching the eye or the screen.

 

In trying to explain the mirror, without resorting to describing how your eyes work, the simplest explanation is that photons leaving the image travel over a depth of 2D before entering your eye.

The simplest way of explaining the mirror is with geometric optics. From what I can make out of it, this 2D explanation you illustrate appears to be a bootstrap argument, even if restricted to the eye seeing its own reflection.