Wannabe Genius Posted March 23, 2004 Report Posted March 23, 2004 Its been a while since I posted anything to this forum so please bear with me if I start to wander. When I last posted I was questioning the validity of theories I was putting forward in a paper on Music and extensions upon it. Well, suffice to say in the meantime, that work has grown enormously. Recently I sent a draft off to someone in London, and after reading it, he emailed me with a question which has quite honestly baffled me. "Have you ever considered the idea that pi might have a different value in some "other" universe, or that you could do all your counting using a radix of pi?" OK, I was sent this question only a couple of days ago, but already it has me thinking way outside of my usual playpen. -- It is amazing how easily I can become obsessed with something. What if it did? How would one go about calculating this hypothetical value? what rules would need to be in place for it to work? Would it need to be an infinite number as our pi value is? or would it be Larger or smaller? Would there be a single equation that could govern such a thing? Sort of an "Equation to calculate equations" and if so, how would it be discoverd? There are simply so many questions that need to be answered on this before the calculations could be set in place and I have no idea where to even begin. I would appreciate any feedback you can give me on this mind-blowing problem. Maths isn't really my strongest suite at the best of times and this question simply knocked me for six to say the least. Thanks. Martin
Tim_Lou Posted March 23, 2004 Report Posted March 23, 2004 i dont really know what you mean by a different pi...is it the pi related to circle??if so, how can there be a different value in different universe, is it like some sort of twisted dimensions or..... i figured a way of calculate pi, dont know if its right.lim n-->infinity sin (360/n)*n/2it works for a very large number... lol
TINNY Posted March 23, 2004 Report Posted March 23, 2004 i never knew pi is so signifacant. at school, i just learn that pi is 22/7 or 3.142..or something like that.Is it the fact that it's a constant in a relative universe that's so significant?note:I'm quite poor at maths.
WebFeet Posted March 24, 2004 Report Posted March 24, 2004 Pi is a numerical constant that represents the ratio of a circle's circumference to its diameter on a flat plane surface. The value is the same regardless of the size of the circle. If the value of Pi was different, then the ratios would change accordingly. If you take a 2 dimensional surface and draw a circle, using our value of Pi you can calculate the circumference from the radius and then you could measure it to confirm the calculation.Now take a larger value of Pi and do the same. The circumference would be larger. Imagine a single coil of a spring. Look at it end on and what you see is a circle. You can determine the radius and figure out the circumference, but when you measure the circumference, the value you calculated will be less. What you've effectively done is taken a circle and given it an extra dimension and to calculate the true circumference you would need a larger value of Pi. So a larger value of Pi would be the result of always having to include an additional dimension, so instead of 2 dimensions you would be using 3 and instead of 3 dimensions you would be using 4 .... possibly.
TINNY Posted March 25, 2004 Report Posted March 25, 2004 What's the use of this stuff?anyway, i'm not quite sure what a circumference and a radius is. i learned maths in my native language.
Tim_Lou Posted March 25, 2004 Report Posted March 25, 2004 i think that an extra dimension is not what makes pi different. when you have 3 dimension, the relationship becomes radius and the "surface area", since it becomes a sphere. for 4 dimension, it would be something unimaginable...
WebFeet Posted March 26, 2004 Report Posted March 26, 2004 Originally posted by: Tim_Loui think that an extra dimension is not what makes pi different.when you have 3 dimension, the relationship becomes radius and the "surface area", since it becomes a sphere.for 4 dimension, it would be something unimaginable... The larger value of Pi would mean, as in the example of the spring, that the two ends of a circle would meet, but not in the same place - if you follow that. Alternatively, a smaller value of Pi would provide similar results to the Schwarzschild metric. The circumference (would also be true for the surface area) of a black hole, because of the distortion of space time caused by the gravitational field, would be substantially less than 2 x Pi x radius - the radius being measured from the singularity and not across the event horizon. So taking a different value for Pi would allow for additional dimensions/distortions to be taken into account.
WebFeet Posted March 26, 2004 Report Posted March 26, 2004 An additional thought. The distance from the singularity to the horizon is greater than half the diameter of the horizon, the value of Pi would less than 3.142. This would be directly related to the gravitational field. If there is such a force as anti-gravity, then this would have the reverse effect. The value of Pi would be greater than 3.142 - anti-gravitational field distortion.This would mean that the distance from the centre to the horizon would be less than half the diameter of the horizon. This may be difficult, but try to imagine something with properties opposite to that of a gravity well Effectively, you would be able to travel a set distance in a reduced amount of time, because the distortion has reduced the distance you need to travel.
Tim_Lou Posted March 26, 2004 Report Posted March 26, 2004 lol, pi relating to gravity. well, pi is actually a dead number, it has nothing to do w/ gravity or whatever. anyway, the value of pi would be the same in maths, but might be different in physics lol....
WebFeet Posted March 26, 2004 Report Posted March 26, 2004 Originally posted by: WebFeetPi is a numerical constant that represents the ratio of a circle's circumference to its diameter on a flat plane surface. The value is the same regardless of the size of the circle.. Notice the part that says : on a flat plane surface Any distortion would cause the surface to cease to be a flat plane. So the definition of Pi can also be viewed as a variable numeric proportionally dependant of the amount of distortion of the surface.
Wannabe Genius Posted March 28, 2004 Author Report Posted March 28, 2004 The original question was "Can pi have a value different from 3.1415926535......" Whilst the answers seem to be a bit more like what I would expect from politician, I appreciate the input from yourselves. However, some observations;is it the pi related to circle??if so, how can there be a different value in different universe, is it like some sort of twisted dimensions or..... I can currently find no way for Pi not to be related to the circle, but that does not mean it can only exist in a "twisted dimension" Throughout the course of this book, I have referenced a number several times which is the difference between a circle and a square which may or may not make an alternative value for Pi. That number is 1.414.... and I am odffering it as an alternative for the following reasons: a) It is a "circular" number, as is PiB) It is a number of infinite length, as is Pic) It has musical significance, As does Pid) Whilst being imperfect itself, it forms geometric perfectione) -->If you take a 2 dimensional surface and draw a circle, using our value of Pi you can calculate the circumference from the radius and then you could measure it to confirm the calculation.The squared circle gives both the radius and 1/8 of the circumference if calculated properly.What you've effectively done is taken a circle and given it an extra dimension and to calculate the true circumference you would need a larger value of Pi. Er how? I can't see this under our present mathematical system. Having something of an engineering background where a coil-spring is made up of 2 circles and a length. The value of pi doesn't change in the calculation. you simply have a seperate calculation to make.finallywell, pi is actually a dead number, it has nothing to do w/ gravity or whatever. No, but it would sure as hell make things interesting if it did!. Plus it would screw up about 1/2 of my book completly as some of the equations on physics rely on gravity being 9.8^2. Throw Pi into the equation and all hell would break loose! Martin
WebFeet Posted March 29, 2004 Report Posted March 29, 2004 Er how? I can't see this under our present mathematical system. Having something of an engineering background where a coil-spring is made up of 2 circles and a length. The value of pi doesn't change in the calculation. you simply have a seperate calculation to make. finally Within our Universe/paradigm you're quite right, there is an acknowldged method of calculating the length of a coil of a spring. You asked the question - Can pi have a value different from 3.1415926535. In our paradigm the answer has to be No. A different value would result from dimensional distortion - hence the example of the coil. Maybe the question would have been better posed if you had asked if there was another, more fundemental, naturally occuring constant than Pi, which is as significant.
Freethinker Posted March 30, 2004 Report Posted March 30, 2004 It's simple. If you have a circle that is 10 units in diameter, it would be 30 units units circumference. Thus pi = 3.0 This can not be disputed because the bible says it is so! 1 Kings 7:23 He made the Sea of cast metal, circular in shape, measuring ten cubits from rim to rim and five cubits high. It took a line of thirty cubits to measure around it. Question over!
Wannabe Genius Posted March 31, 2004 Author Report Posted March 31, 2004 This can not be disputed because the bible says it is so! What has the bible got to do with Pi? please do not bring your religion into this discussion. That is for a philosophical discussion, not one on a mathematical concept. *note the use of the word "your"! I will not be dictated to by a book based on myth!
Freethinker Posted March 31, 2004 Report Posted March 31, 2004 Originally posted by: Wannabe Genius This can not be disputed because the bible says it is so! What has the bible got to do with Pi? please do not bring your religion into this discussion. That is for a philosophical discussion, not one on a mathematical concept. *note the use of the word "your"! I will not be dictated to by a book based on myth! The Bible belongs to everyone! As to what the bible has to do with pi, I already explained. The bible makes it clear that pi=3.0. We know that the bible is the word of God the Almighty. Since He created everything, He should know what pi is! This is not philosophical, this is math. And who are we to argue with God?
Tim_Lou Posted March 31, 2004 Report Posted March 31, 2004 lol, freethinker is trying to mess up all the posts......
WebFeet Posted March 31, 2004 Report Posted March 31, 2004 Originally posted by: FreethinkerAs to what the bible has to do with pi, I already explained. The bible makes it clear that pi=3.0. We know that the bible is the word of God the Almighty. Since He created everything, He should know what pi is! This is not philosophical, this is math. And who are we to argue with God? The bible is supposed to be the word of God as written by man.God (if he exists) would know that Pi=3.14159 - so it would appear he is being misquoted. Anybody can quote from a book, so unless you have any original thoughts of your own.....
Recommended Posts