Fusion and Unified Force

[HydrogenBond]

Here is some provocative theory. Within the nucleus of an atom the proton can participate in the four forces simultaneously, ie., strong and weak nuclear force, EM force and gravity. But as a hydrogen proton, for example as the hydrogen of water, it only participates in two forces EM and gravity. Since fusion causes the hydrogen proton to go from two to four forces, is fusion driven by the unified force?

 

As a follow up, during a camp fire the combustion process can pull oxygen in from a distance into the flame. For all practical purposes this chemical potential acts like an attractive force with long range effect. Even though it is not a force in the traditional sense the distance attraction potential is way more powerful than gravity or EM force for the molecular size and movement involved. This potential, among other things, combines or chemically fuses oxygen and hydrogen to make water. Is this chemical attraction and fusion of hydrogen also driven by the unified force since it forms an intermediate state of protons closer to nuclear protons? Chemical fusion (with oxygen) then nuclear fusion with other hydrogen proton reflects the protons moving down an exothermic gradient toward nuclear protons where they can express all four forces.

[Erasmus00]

As a follow up, during a camp fire the combustion process can pull oxygen in from a distance into the flame. For all practical purposes this chemical potential acts like an attractive force with long range effect. Even though it is not a force in the traditional sense the distance attraction potential is way more powerful than gravity or EM force for the molecular size and movement involved. This potential, among other things, combines or chemically fuses oxygen and hydrogen to make water. Is this chemical attraction and fusion of hydrogen also driven by the unified force since it forms an intermediate state of protons closer to nuclear protons?

 

The flow of oxygen toward a camp fire is driven by diffusion and by convection currents. Chemical reactions are entirely driven by EM forces.

-Will

[UncleAl]

Within the nucleus of an atom the proton can participate in the four forces simultaneously, ie., strong and weak nuclear force, EM force and gravity. But as a hydrogen proton, for example as the hydrogen of water, it only participates in two forces EM and gravity.

 

Buncha crap at face value.

Buncha crap anyway - protons are solvated.

Buncha crap - gravitation doesn't make any difference at all on an atomic scale.

Buncha crap - Weak Interaction neutral current exchange varies as (atomic number)^5. The most extreme exquisite experimental protocols can barely detect it - in mercury, thallium, lead, and bismuth.

 

http://arXiv.org/abs/cond-mat/0207627

Mendeleev Commun. 13(3) 129 (2003)

http://socrates.berkeley.edu/~budker/PubList.html

Phys. Rev. Lett. 82(12) 2484 (1999)

Phys. Rev. Lett. 80(17) 3719 (1998)

Rep. Prog. Phys. 60(11) 1351 (1997)

Phys. Rev. A 52(3) 1895 (1995)

Am. J. Phys. 56 1086 (1988)

 

You are clueless.

[Qfwfq]

No, it is driven by The Force. Any Jedi can tell you that! :eek2:

 

But as a hydrogen proton, for example as the hydrogen of water, it only participates in two forces EM and gravity.

It sure "participates in" strong force too!

 

A single hadron is a fireball of quarks and gluons. Quarks and antiquarks with an overall net depending on the type of hadron. Despite what Uncle Al says about the quantitative aspect, a proton formally "participates in" weak interaction. A loose neutron will soon ß-decay into a proton. The opposite will not occur, it's just a matter of stability, somewhat like a ball will roll from the top down to the bottom and not the opposite way, not by gravity alone.

[HydrogenBond]

I think you guys miss the point. The proton can participate in all the forces of nature at the same time. That is somewhat unique in nature. What make it more unique is time scale. The proton can exert unified force for billion years in one sitting. We normally visual it as four separated and distinct forces, but that is merely due to scientific convention, to help isolate phenomena to make it easier to explore.

 

Combusition usually occurs with radials which are excited but neutral chemical chunks. So EM force is not behind the distant attraction potential of neutral oxygen for combustion. If one sets up turbulence to prevent convection effects you will still get combustion. The little oxygen salmon will swim up stream against the current. Again scientific convention makes combustion separate from force because it crosses the border between chemistry and physics. Unified force might imply forces changing into each other to get an overall effect that minimizes potential. For example, in solar fusion, the unified force inherant with protons might used some of the nuclear force potential to increase local gravity. The higher apparent gravity will help sustain fusion while also pulling in fuel from beyond the star.

[Erasmus00]

Combusition usually occurs with radials which are excited but neutral chemical chunks. So EM force is not behind the distant attraction potential of neutral oxygen for combustion. If one sets up turbulence to prevent convection effects you will still get combustion. The little oxygen salmon will swim up stream against the current. Again scientific convention makes combustion separate from force because it crosses the border between chemistry and physics.

 

The reason the fire "attacts" oxygen is simply diffusion, and in most cases, convection currents. Yes, with combustion in a turbulent flow, convection will be drastically reduced, but diffusion will not. The fire consumes the oxygen right around it, so you have a rather steep density gradient for oxygen, and hence a large diffusion from further away from the fire. There is no "force" in the traditional sense of the word. The actual combustion mechanism is electrical, as are all chemical reactions.

-Will

[HydrogenBond]

Concentration gradients seems reasonable but the attraction is more than that. The actual combustion is electrical but pulling material from the distance is not. It is hard to see with oxygen. Here is a old time remedy that is easier to see. Lighting a match in a bathroom with tainted air (H2S) will remove the smell in a matter of seconds. There is very little hydrogen sulfide to begin with yet it will reach the flame quickly with very little concentration gradient. The chemical potential creates it own attraction potential.

[Erasmus00]

Concentration gradients seems reasonable but the attraction is more than that. The actual combustion is electrical but pulling material from the distance is not. It is hard to see with oxygen. Here is a old time remedy that is easier to see. Lighting a match in a bathroom with tainted air (H2S) will remove the smell in a matter of seconds. There is very little hydrogen sulfide to begin with yet it will reach the flame quickly with very little concentration gradient. The chemical potential creates it own attraction potential.

 

It seems as if you are confusing the idea of the chemical potential (essentailly the energy required to add a particle to your system) and an honest physical potential. The chemical potential is a thermodynamic construct and doesn't give rise to a real force the same way gravitational, electromagnetic or nuclear potentials do. The reason a match clears out a room so quickly is because of air currents. Your hot match sets up its own air currents, any fire will. Hot air moves away from the match, cold air toward it, carrying with it your H2S. Combined with the fact that the H2S is already trying to diffuse toward the match (which is a much slower process then the air currents) and it becomes readily understandable what is going on.

-Will

[Qfwfq]

The proton can participate in all the forces of nature at the same time. That is somewhat unique in nature.

Not so unique, all hadrons are made of quarks.

 

What make it more unique is time scale. The proton can exert unified force for billion years in one sitting.

The proton is simply more stable.