Katrina's 'victims'

[IrishEyes]

We've all probably seen the utter devastation poured out upon the US Gulf states last week. I've seen days worth of CNN showing people on top of their houses, bodies floating in the waters, people living in sports stadiums in both New Orleans and other cities. While the images have indeed been tragic and heart-rendering, I am left wondering who the 'victims' of the natural disaster are.

 

My brother, and hundreds of thousands of others, left the city when the mandatory evacuation was issued. He didn't like the thought of leaving, but he heeded the warnings and got out. Thousands of others did not. How far does the word 'victim' go in describing people that willingly stayed behind?

 

I hope you don't think me lacking in compassion. But seeing people tell reporters (after they have been rescued) that they just wanted to stay and look the storm in the face really makes me angry. Instead of being able to spend money on re-building, we have to spend it on rescues, and some of those people still refuse to leave.

 

I understand that there were people that were physically unable to leave the city. People in hospitals, or nursing homes, very poor that could not afford transportation out... I know that not everyone stayed because they wanted to stay. But the ones that did... how much can they criticize the slow relief efforts, when they were warned not to stay but did not listen?

 

And I can't even begin to comment on the looting that has taken place, the killing, the rapes, the general anarchy that reigned until 'the calvary' arrived. Why would you shoot at a rescue worker? How can you complain that nobody is helping when helicopters are under sniper fire?

 

Does nobody else have these questions?

[Fishteacher73]

One must also take into acocunt a bit of the culture of such events. I grew up on the Gulf Coast and have seen my fair share of hurricanes blow in. (i remember Camile, I rode it out in the bathroom in Morgan City). A lot of the culture surrounding such events are essentially "viewing parties". Drink hurricanes and watch the storm blow in...

Now I say this not as an excuse for their behavior, but as perhaps some perspective. The massive issues in NO stem from two events, and the most devistating is probably the levee break which magnified the flooding issues. The water level in the city is (last I heard) a foot above the Pochartrain.

[infamous]

 

And I can't even begin to comment on the looting that has taken place, the killing, the rapes, the general anarchy that reigned until 'the calvary' arrived. Why would you shoot at a rescue worker? How can you complain that nobody is helping when helicopters are under sniper fire?

 

Does nobody else have these questions?

Truly Irish, there is a lot of finger pointing going on when we should be spending our efforts in trying to turn things around. This is a massive undertanking and for those that complain that we are not doing enough, I suggest that they join the struggle and add their energy to solving the problem instead of only expressing their displeasure.

[Buffy]

I've spent a lot of time in New Orleans, and I've been through a lot of those neighborhoods, and I've got to tell you: they are *poor*. If you think everyone's got a car and they can just get out, you'd be very surprised. Lots of people that get by in very low-end service jobs that take public transit or drive clunkers that might be okay to get a mile or two but you probably couldn't "evacuate". With gas prices what they were, a drive out of town was beyond a lot of these people's budgets.

 

There are always a lot of people who can't move: the fire that consumed my neighborhood took nearly 2 dozen lives, several of whom were well-off but non-mobile invalids who could not reach anyone for help in time. From a public policy perspective, its been noted in the media that there were no plans in Louisiana's disaster plans that involved doing anything for evacuations other than announcing that "people should leave." In a city like New York, (or even Boston or Washington DC) where most people actually do *not* have cars because public transit is fine for getting around town, I bet they don't really have evacuation plans either. Its an issue that is probably going to be talked about extensively over the coming months, and it does need a fundamental examination. How *do* you get everyone out of harms way?

 

There's also race relations: A taxi driver there told me once, "you know, I used to live in Chicago, but I moved back here cuz people are racist everywhere, but at least here they're open about it..." I've also been told that in general, black folks are still not terribly "welcome" outside of the city, and that they avoid going out of town for any reason: not that that's an excuse in the face of a hurricane, but it does have a strong effect. And if you think that racism is not pervasive, please note that not only Fox but all the other networks made it look like the looting was the entire black community going crazy, while some AP photos of white folks looting went out with captions that indicated they were just "finding" food and water. Fox News also had a long discussion on why it should be legal for anyone to shoot looters (and due to the news pictures, we know what looters look like don't we!). No the KKK isn't burning crosses or lynching anyone anymore (much), but saying there's no racism is a bit um, disingenuous.

 

There were a lot of issues involved with the lawlessness, but most of it has to do with no feet on the street (2/3 of the police force went AWOL, and of course there were no Guard or Fed troops for 6 days), no communications (a natl guard noted "we had better communications in Fallujah"), and no attempt at triage or coordination of efforts. Its just like Iraq though in so far as the notion that things will be fine without forces there to maintain order in an emergency situation is simply not a reasonable assumption. An example of where it worked was the 89 quake here, where one of the worst disasters was the freeway collapse in Oakland in one of the worst areas of town: due to the massive influx of both emergency, police and other personnel, there was almost no looting.

 

Its also notable that the folks that "refused" to leave, were as likely to be anywhere, of any skin color, but in large numbers, not mentally stable. They interviewed a white guy floating on a tire in a Metarie who looked like a homeless person who refused to go without his two dogs, although he was warned of the danger of disease and pollution. He was typical in that the people who don't leave usually don't ask to be evacuated, or are usually embarrased for being so stupid. The folks who are complaining are the ones who by and large *really* did not have any options for leaving.

 

Its a mess, but I really start seething when Michael Brown and others in the administration try to pin the blame on these people. Saying "they should have left when they were told" is not really much different than "let them eat cake." For those of us who deal with disasters that do not *allow* for evacuation ahead of the disaster like earthquakes, this episode has not been reassuring as to what the response will be for our next disaster.

 

Cheers,

Buffy

[Qfwfq]

The accounts of shooting were something I found quite shocking, certainly not justified.

 

As for "finding" food, well, nobody dies of hunger in just a few days but lack of water can kill quicker. With relief coming late I can even understand taking food that's lying around and that probably won't last much longer anyway but I just can't justify the shooting.

[alxian]

excellent post buffy

 

makes you wonder, oakland was rebuilt

 

will everything that was new orleans and other ravaged cities be rebuilt as it was?

 

where will the evacuees end up after this mess is cleaned up.. if its cleaned up at all.

 

for some reason i can't help but think something like this had to happen to wake people up the the realities of the current protocols for dealing with natural disasters, but that nothing much will be learned here, and the people most affected will get nothing much out of the government in terms of relief or new neighborhoods and housing.

[nkt]

Well, yesterday I watched a very amusing video containing three black policewomen looting a WalMart! They appeared to be shopping for shoes?!?!

 

The link is [ame]http://www.zippyvideos.com/8911023771013466/countdown-looting-in-walmart/[/ame]

 

I know I'm not there, and the reporting and camera work might be very biased, but as far as I can tell, the white folks are looting for food and water (both of which you need quite urgently if your kitchen has been washed through with muddy water!) whereas the black people... well, they seem to be after clothes and TVs.

 

I realise it's a big temptation. After one of the big floods in Quebec, a town got washed away, and when they found the bank vault some four miles away, the back had been ripped out of it, and it lay empty of the millions inside. But you have to be really poor to go looting for designer shoes - and I don't mean monetarily!

[Qfwfq]

What's really wrong there is police participating, but who says those are designer shoes? In Wal-Mart?

 

I looked at that video several times and I still can't see such a great distinction between the behaviour of blacks and whites. I did go through the remarks on that page, many of them are blithely racist, such as:

 

Whites are taking food and clothing for survival. Blacks are stealing bikes, toys, tvs, ect... They are taking things that are not necessary for survival.

I saw nobody taking food and most taking clothing, which that remark justifies and sees only white people doing while you condemn it as what black people are doing:

 

as far as I can tell, the white folks are looting for food and water (both of which you need quite urgently if your kitchen has been washed through with muddy water!) whereas the black people... well, they seem to be after clothes and TVs.

Remember nkt that racist posts aren't in line with the rules of these forums.

[IrishEyes]

Remember nkt that racist posts aren't in line with the rules of these forums.

I'd like to have this discussion here, between 'friends', and let people say what they really feel. If nkt has an observation about what he sees in the media (as that is his only source of info of this event), he should feel free to share it without fearing someone insinuating that he's racist.

Because I have to tell you, I'm seeing the same things. And I'm hearing the same things from my brother, who lives there. It's not just what the media is showing, it's how it actually is in a lot of neighborhoods there.

 

Now, to look at it from another perspective, you could say that since a large part of the population is black, of course you're going to see more blacks on tv. Does that mean that only blacks are looting? Very doubtful.

 

Buffy brings up a very good point about the people in that city being poor. Many of them did not have a way out of the city. And I repeat that that is a tragedy. If they didn't have a car, were their legs broken? I'm sorry, but if you've got a huge storm coming your way, and a newborn baby to look after, are you going to stay in a city that is below sea-level, or are you going to get the hell out any way you can?

 

You see, I've spent a LOT of time there as well, visiting family and just visiting. It was one of my favorite places long before my only niece was born there. :lol: I've seen the neighborhoods you mention. It's not a pretty site, but it's there. And still the people stay.

 

Where is the line between victim and personal responsibility? If people are too poor to own a car, or pay for gas, to evacuate a city, does it then become the responsibility of the city, state, or federal government to evacuate them?

[C1ay]

The residents were warned that they would be on their own if there was an evacuation and they had no way to leave. On July 24, 2005, long before anyone heard of Katrina, the New Orleans TIMES-PICAYUNE ran a story warning residents: If you stay behind during a big storm, you'll be on your own! And when the time came, those that had not made arrangements were on their own. Staff writer Bruce Nolan reported some 7 weeks before Katrina: "In scripted appearances being recorded now, officials such as Mayor Ray Nagin, local Red Cross Executive Director Kay Wilkins and City Council President Oliver Thomas drive home the word that the city does not have the resources to move out of harm's way an estimated 134,000 people without transportation."

 

FWIW, I have over 200 relatives in the New Orleans area. One family in particular is my Aunt Joyce and Uncle John. They have lived there all of their lives in an upper middle class neighborhood....without a car. My aunt is a stay at home housewife and my uncle has always used city transit to go back and forth to work, shopping, etc.. They raised six kids in NO without a car but, 2 days before the hurricane they got a ride out of town with friends. They are safe and sound in Baton Rouge. Lack of a car did not stop them from leaving town. So far I have not received word that I have lost any relatives there. It has been difficult to reach some of them so there are still many I do not know about.

 

It may be crass but I don't feel very sorry for those residents that willingly and wantedly stayed behind to face the storm. They have been warned for years what would happen if a major hurricane hit. It is no one's fault but their own for not listening. With this one there was days of warning before it hit.

[Qfwfq]

you could say that since a large part of the population is black, of course you're going to see more blacks on tv. Does that mean that only blacks are looting? Very doubtful.

This is one of the things I thought, it sure doesn't justify black and white remarks, it goes the opposite way. I also pointed out a few things about that post that I still find out of place.

 

If they didn't have a car, were their legs broken? I'm sorry, but if you've got a huge storm coming your way, and a newborn baby to look after, are you going to stay in a city that is below sea-level, or are you going to get the hell out any way you can?

I have walked a lot in my life, some times I have walked ten or more miles just for a Sunday walk. I once met an Englishman that was walking around Europe after he had landed from a channel crossing. It isn't easy to do much more than twenty miles a day for days at a time, for a person in good health and shape. How many miles would those people have had to walk?

 

If people are too poor to own a car, or pay for gas, to evacuate a city, does it then become the responsibility of the city, state, or federal government to evacuate them?

In many countries it does, especially if you're talking about an emergency. Certainly there are places where the authorities will make a great effort on people that try to stay. I think Buffy's point was very appropriate.

 

As I understand, many people there had been through more than one hurricaine and weren't made quite aware of what was coming this time around.

[IrishEyes]

As I understand, many people there had been through more than one hurricaine and weren't made quite aware of what was coming this time around.

I live over a thousand miles away, on a different large body of water. When Isabel hit a few years back, we knew what was coming days in advance. During Isabel, we stayed, because we thought we were far enough inland not to have much damage. We didn't count on the hurricane going up the Potomac River though. Still, we had plenty of warning, and knew what the expected storm force would be, so we made our decision. If they would have said that Isabel was a Cat 5, or even a Cat 4, when it was going to hit land, we would have gotten out, even though we are inland.

6 years ago, when we lived in Virginia Beach, we knew each of the times that hurricane's were to hit, days in advance. We knew what their strength was while they were out in the Atlantic, and we had a decent guess as to what their strength would be during landfall. We made the choice to leave Virginia Beach every time a storm hit, even though we often didn't really have the money to do it. I can remember floating a check to pay for the gas to get us out of there in '99, while I was pregnant, in the Navy, with 4 other kids. The lady at the station knew I probably didn't have the cash to back that check, and she just smiled and said "good luck to your family!" We came back and nothing was wrong with the house, thankfully. And those were only Cat 3 storms, yet still we took the safe road, especially knowing that we were responsible for our children. That's just common sense.

I don't live in New Orleans, so I can't speak to how much notice the citizens had. But I know that it was made VERY public in my part of the country. We knew what was coming, and it seems very unlikely that the people there didn't know.

My brother car-pooled out, taking some friends that didn't have a car. C1ay mentioned the same thing about some of his family. If these people were able to find a ride out in a city that was being madatorily evacuated, how can others not have any possible way to get out as well?

[Turtle]

___Without rehashing everyone's good points, I agree the authorities gave adequate warnings. Many people care less about preparing ahead for anything, opting rather to live for the moment; I don't feel inclined to help them. I couldn't help noticing in the news reels how many fat victims need help. :lol:

[Buffy]

I just keep coming back to the notion that when you're poor, you really don't have much choice. It would be good to save for a "rainy day", but when you're in a struggle for survival, its not an option, and our society depends on keeping a class of people who make too little to make such preparations. I do think there's an economic benefit to keeping these people from dying: who is going to clean up all that trash and dig all those ditches? Who's gonna serve all those Big Macs to the construction workers? Who's gonna empty all those porta-potties?

 

Also, think of all those public transit and school buses that probably are destroyed, just abandoned before the hurricane: why didn't they make one last run through those neighborhoods and head north? Would that have been so hard? Is it really better to do nothing?

 

It sure is an interesting exercise in Social Darwinism, though, huh! Just think, with 10,000 dead folks, almost all poor, the poverty rates will drop dramatically! We oughta have these disasters more often!

 

Swiftian,

Buffy

[Buffy]

Here's an old thread that I caught a Guest perusing today: 1905 (good one Turtle!). Some interesting and relevant comments, but I still think there's still the public policy issue related to the poor that was missed back then too...

 

No-one-expects-the-Spanish-Inquisition,

Buffy

[Turtle]

Here's an old thread that I caught a Guest perusing today: 1905 (good one Turtle!). Some interesting and relevant comments, but I still think there's still the public policy issue related to the poor that was missed back then too...

 

No-one-expects-the-Spanish-Inquisition,

Buffy

___I don't think it's an issue of wealth, but one of ignorance. Poor? Go into any relief office & find no end of government publications on preparedness; Middle Class? Go online or to a library & find no end of government publications on preparedness; Filthy Rich? Pay your private secretary to go find you no end of government & private publications on prepearedness.

___Heed the warnings & prepare to the best of your means; otherwise, you're part of the problem. An ounce of prevention I don't mind sharing, but I have reservations about giving cures. Abandon New Orleans as a city completely & forever & quit spending money to keep it afloat.

:lol:

[Buffy]

___I don't think it's an issue of wealth, but one of ignorance. Poor? Go into any relief office & find no end of government publications on preparedness;

Ah yes, the stupid, lazy poor. They can't take time out from their two part time jobs with no health insurance to just go down to the preparedness office right there in the ghetto, or have a few thousand dollars saved up to pay for their travel and hotels for that disaster that will probably happen to them once in a lifetime. All they'd have to do is just not eat for a few months. Dang well serves them right if they get stuck.

___Heed the warnings & prepare to the best of your means; otherwise, you're part of the problem. :lol:

Lets just say that there should be no government help at all except for rebuilding the infrastructure. No insurance? That's your problem, you shoulda signed up for those special East-of-Normandie-Watts rates from your Fly-by-Shark-Insurance-Co. rep. No food? Well you're all lazy-*** fat anyway and can probably use to lose some weight. Can't get out of where you are when evacuations are called? Serves you right if you get chollera. Break your leg when your house falls on you in the earthquake? Well, that means you can't help rebuild, so we're better off if you just croak anyway, heck its your fault if you don't have the ability to set your own bones and materials to make a cast and antibiotics on hand to handle the infection.

 

Test-of-faith,

Aunt Buffy :) - back - attcha