Katrina's 'victims'

[Tormod]

I sometimes wonder if people lose perspective here. We're talking *millions* of people. It's not like every single person can move all at the same time. We're NOT talking a herd of cattle here...

[infamous]

I sometimes wonder if people lose perspective here. We're talking *millions* of people. It's not like every single person can move all at the same time. We're NOT talking a herd of cattle here...

Exactly Tormod; we are talking about people and it takes all kinds. Some will use their heads and some will not. Some have the where-with-all to ammend their situations and some do not. Some were smart enough to see it comming and some were not. BUT , we are talking about our neighbors, brothers and sisters in the flesh, our humankind. Do I choose whom to help dependant upon their social standing or do I help those in need? It's time to forget about being judgmental and it's time to stretch out our hands and help the helpless. Doesn't really have anything to do with the reasons why they got into trouble, it has everything to do with love.

[Tormod]

Well put, infy. I also think that in cases like Katrina - well, **** *happens*. It happens to normal people. Some will have been in situations where they had no choice but to stay behind. Some had sick kids that day and stayed home and didn't listen to the news and were oblivious to what happened...that's life.

 

I guess what I'm saying is life is life - we can't condemn all these people simply because we think they might be *lazy*...

[Turtle]

___Cheated by the interface of a good post! :lol:

___Buffy, you know I used ignorant, not stupid; the lack of knowledge, not the inability to use it. No one stays fat without eating well; if you can eat well, you can save food. A penny saved, is a penny got. - Ben Franklin

___Tormod, I do understand it's millions, but it's no different than disaster of any kind in the world involving millions. Millions prepared (educated) is millions saved.

___Infamous, these people aren't my neighbors by my definition. Good fences make good neighbors. - Mark Twain Ohh I have to stay because I love my dog & my possessions! Humbug.

___The government is responsible to fix what they had a hand in causing. Save who you can & quit throwing good money after bad. Let the delta be a delta. The only thing propping up most of those economies was gambling. Yeah, let's rebuild that!

[Buffy]

___Cheated by the interface of a good post! :)

Ref'ing back to your ref of Aesop and the Ant and the Grasshopper:

 

Ant (pretty mad): Those are my tax dollars! I prepared for the obviously inevitable! You lazy fat grasshopper gets what you deserve! You're not *deserving* of my charity! Why should we ants lift a finger to help you? You knew what was coming and now you expect us to do something about it? The nerve!

 

IceGrasshopper: Yo momma! My momma gots a broken leg! You Ant-boys think you own the worl'. You gonna jus' let 'er die! Why don' you jus' lynch us while you at it?

 

DefGrasshopper: MMMmmmm! Ants! <munch/>

 

Test-of-faith!

Aunt Buffy :lol:

[Turtle]

Ref'ing back to your ref of Aesop and the Ant and the Grasshopper:

 

Ant (pretty mad): Those are my tax dollars! I prepared for the obviously inevitable! You lazy fat grasshopper gets what you deserve! You're not *deserving* of my charity! Why should we ants lift a finger to help you? You knew what was coming and now you expect us to do something about it? The nerve!

 

IceGrasshopper: Yo momma! My momma gots a broken leg! You Ant-boys think you own the worl'. You gonna jus' let 'er die! Why don' you jus' lynch us while you at it?

 

DefGrasshopper: MMMmmmm! Ants! <munch/>

 

Test-of-faith!

Aunt Buffy :lol:

 

Given their formic acid content, it is a test of faith to eat an aunt. A grasshopper's gotta do... well, you know.

___Sorry if I indicate a bias; I'm just another poor mentally ill sole on the dole. :)

[nkt]

Just to chip in again, thanks for the defence of my post. I wasn't trying to be racist, and as someone else pointed out, if I raise an observation, it is very different from making a statement. Or are we to avoid all mention of colour, creed and sex on these boards, least we be kicked off for breaking the rules?

 

Had I come out and said "Black men steal" or "Black men steal on TV", both would be facts, and whether they were racist or not would depend. After all, white men steal too, and on TV. If I spin it one way it's racism, another it is nothing like. "Only black women are looting" would be racist, though, since it obviously shows (intentional) bias. And that's not what I did.

 

As for the divide... I don't know how poor the poor are in the states, but here the welfare state means they all have plenty. A car, a house, a wide-screen TV. It must be very different over there.

[Qfwfq]

I hate having to chip in again nkt but I just can't agree with this either. You linked to a page that had racism in it and not to say "look how racist this is" but to add a few remarks of your own to the fabrication. After watching the same video, and carefully watching it again more than once before criticizing you, I don't call:

but as far as I can tell, the white folks are looting for food and water (both of which you need quite urgently if your kitchen has been washed through with muddy water!) whereas the black people... well, they seem to be after clothes and TVs

just stating facts, especially considering well-known demographic facts about these places, nor do I call your post just a plain mention of colour, creed and sex. I honestly paid close attention before criticizing your attitude.

 

Welfare... it's a well known fact that the poor in many areas of the US don't receive much welfare. Certainly not as much as in Canada, the pre-Thatcher UK or Ireland for instance.

[Qfwfq]

No one stays fat without eating well; if you can eat well, you can save food.

Obesity usually has more to do with bad eating habits than with quantity. Cheap food can be a less healthy nutrition than expensive food. It also depends on culture and sense. Most of all there are traits that some are born with and others aren't, as well as disorders that can be caused later in life. That isn't an excuse to put the full blame on them.

 

Ohh I have to stay because I love my dog & my possessions!

I don't deny that many stubbornly stayed despite being told, including people that had some opportunity to travel. Certainly not the brunt of the number that remained. In some cases because they guessed there would be looting. How strong was the effort of persuasion, anyway? Did police patrols spend the last safe days round the neighbourhoods with loudspeakers and stopping at people's houses where necessary?

 

It has been said that the evacuation was mandatory. Humbug. Only on paper.

[Qfwfq]

Car pools... Just how many more people could have found a lift on cars?

 

That isn't what a state authority should rely on when issuing a mandatory evacuation, if they really want to call it a mandatory one. I believe there's a railway line to New Orleans. Did they organize an emergency shuttle? Even using freight cars? Using all local fleet vehicles from neighborhoods to rail?

 

P. S. No first class tickets.

[nkt]

Welfare... it's a well known fact that the poor in many areas of the US don't receive much welfare. Certainly not as much as in Canada, the pre-Thatcher UK or Ireland for instance.

I'm sure that's well known by many Americans who are rich enough to travel to other places, and by the few people who have looked in to the welfare state in America then contrasted and compared on paper.

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/09/06/opinion/06tierney.html is the best article of the many I have seen on how the evacuation should have proceded. "Magic Marker Strategy".

[C1ay]

An interesting related article....

[Qfwfq]

Interesting indeed C1ay, quite in line with my thoughts.

[Buffy]

An interesting related article....

There's certainly enough blame to go around, and of course even this quoted article includes the line:

I am not attempting to excuse some of the delays in FEMA's response. Congress and the president need to take corrective action there, also. However, if citizens expect FEMA to be a first responder to terrorist attacks or other local emergencies (earthquakes, forest fires, volcanoes), they will be disappointed. The federal government's role is to offer aid upon request.

And like a lot of the unfortunately extreme opinions spouted by the WSJ, its an excuse draped in a falsehood: the request to FEMA went out from the Governor's office two days before the hurricane hit: after getting spun by the administration, the Washington post had to print a retraction.

 

The parking lots full of submerged school busses are dispicable, and the city and state should have planned. FEMA should have reacted. A pox on all their houses!

 

The public policy issue--and what much of the preceding discussion seems to be pointed at--is the more interesting issue (more interesting than partisan pissing matches) of whether any level of government has any responsibility to collect tax monies to do that saving for a rainy day when the poor, infirm or mentally ill need assistance. I think quite a few comments above (mine are facetious of course, in case you didn't notice!) say the answer to that question is "no" (although aparently that is a position that is lurking in the Administration's philosophy too). I happen to disagree with that, but I guess there's room for opinion! :lol:

 

Cheers,

Buffy

[Turtle]

The public policy issue--and what much of the preceding discussion seems to be pointed at--is the more interesting issue of whether any level of government has any responsibility to collect tax monies to do that saving for a rainy day when the poor, infirm or mentally ill need assistance. I think quite a few comments above (mine are facetious of course, in case you didn't notice!) say the answer to that question is "no"

Cheers,

Buffy

___ :lol: This little advocate smiley is full of facetiouness! (A title of "devil" sounds better than "evil". :) ) I do think different levels of government each needs an escalating level of respons(ibility), while all take some responsibility in educating the public. Every citizen needs at least a 72 hour kit of food, water, etc. (Essentially camp gear); cities then need to maintain the fire, rescue, & police; counties likewise, plus evacuation centers; states likewise, plus heavier equipment & guard troops; federal government likewise, & on a larger scale. It is as usual, communication between levels that gums up the works.

___An afterthought on helping people with charity down there; I started a poll awhile back on Charity & the last I looked, no one voted to feed, clothe, or shelter. Write ins say risking/giving your life is the noblest charity, while education is the number 1 noblest charity. (Link coming :) )

http://hypography.com/forums/poll.php?do=showresults&pollid=42

[C1ay]

Here's another interesting article about who knew what and when they knew it.

[Buffy]

Just when you thought that FEMA hasn't been spending its budget wisely and doing what its supposed to do:

 

http://www.fema.gov/kids/femarap.htm

 

Down wid' it,

Buffy