Evolution of dinosaurs

[rileyj]

i always wondered what dinos would have become if they didn't die out. would they have evolved intelligence? or would they have had no need for it? are crocs an example of their evolution or just one case? after all we evolved from apes but not all apes are like us.

[ScienceGuy]

A very interesting question and debate. I am very much on your side at this time. Crocodiles have changed very little in the millions of years that they have been on earth, even some predating the dinosaurs. Is it possible that they stayed essentially the same over this long of time but we had only 65 million years to go from a shrew to highly intelligent man? This type of evolution is strange. These same crocodiles were on the same Earth with the same climatic conditions and undergoing the same type of reproduction as most other animals and they hardly changed at all. I think we have much more to find out about the fossil record before we can say evolution has a major role on this planet.

[Freethinker]

Originally posted by: ScienceGuy

Crocodiles have changed very little in the millions of years that they have been on earth, even some predating the dinosaurs. Is it possible that they stayed essentially the same over this long of time but we had only 65 million years to go from a shrew to highly intelligent man? This type of evolution is strange.

 

Ya got to love the attempt to minimallize Evolution. When in reality all it shows is the "viewers bias". Christians think of themselves as something special. They have a secret! They have a special relationship with their god! Naturally therefore, they hold their place in the cosmos to be superior to all other beings. Oh they will never admit this because they like to feel they are being persecuted. Their book tells them that if they are doing it right, they will be. So they don;t want to "brag" too much. But they still like to feel they have a special place in the universe.

 

One of the proofs that makes this empirically self evident is the way they always hold themselves up as THE point of reference. Like when discussing Evolution. It isn't how evolution works. It's where it puts them.

 

We see this above. The discussion is NOT about HOW Evolution might work, but where humans fit in. "from a shrew to highly intelligent man" is the reference of comparison. It is to establish standards for if some other species can be 200 million years old. They do not question the assertion of something still being here that existed before dinosaurs. That is a given because it will help them nmake their point.

 

But to Christians, the only important aspect is to compare it to humans and how long we have been around. As if the only reason for evolution is to intentionally evolve to us. The utter selfrighteousness of thinking the entire existence of the universe is for them right now. Because we all know the Rapture is coming soon!

 

What is even funnier, is that the same ones that would try to use the evolutionary survival of a well adapted species would reject this very same species history when it exposes the fallacy of a short earth history. Hard to have a species that has been around 200 million years when the earth has only been here 6-8 thousand.

[Freethinker]

Now to the topic in general.

 

It all boils down to what features provide a benefit for survival and procreation. Since the species that are the oldest are low to the ground or in the water, being tall has obviously been a handicap. And perhaps being ugly? :-)

 

It makes complete sense in an evolution based system that some species out of the wide variety that would come out of mutations, would survive some combination of various conditions. Where most other species would run into a dead end somewhere along the line. It is just a high statistical probablity. Like flipping 10 heads in a row. The chance of it happeneing to a single person that sets out to do it, is fairly high. But conditions can be set up that virtually guarantee it happening. It's just a matter of numbers.

 

So we would expect, in an evolution based system, that some small number of species woould ahve devloped just the right combo of features to survive an extensive period of time. The vast majority would come and go.

 

This is a perfect example of what evolution would do.

 

But intellegence is another anthropomorphic prejudice, like our time line. Just because human's main evolutionary advantage is intellegence does not mean that feature is a guarantee of a long species existence. Evolving intellegence would happen if there was an evolutionary advantage to it. It would seem based on how long dino's were around without it, it was of little benefit to them. Just because we like it does not mean it is that important in the evolutionary scheme of things.

 

Chances are better that some other species would develop the intellegence. The dino's had size and strength. A small creature could use the survival tool of intellegence better. Some little shrew or something.

[IrishEyes]

What is even funnier, is that the same ones that would try to use the evolutionary survival of a well adapted species would reject this very same species history when it exposes the fallacy of a short earth history. Hard to have a species that has been around 200 million years when the earth has only been here 6-8 thousand.

 

Freethinker, why do you have to keep coming back to GOD? I mean, I'm all for it, but really... rileyj was asking a question. rileyj asked about dinosaurs. rileyj even accepts that we evolved from apes. where does rileyj mention God in this post? where does rileyj mention creation? From other threads, you know that rileyj believes in a god, but you also are aware that rileyj believes in evolution. So why the attack? And i will challenge you that it is not only creationists that have a high self-worth. I know of at least one atheist that has a very lofty self-esteem as well ;>P

ScienceGuy is a new element, and glad to see him here. If I remember right, he's a day-ager, right?

Freethinker's explanation is a good one, and very plausible. Another explanation is that the earth IS young, most dinosaurs were killed off by the flood, crocs survived as they are water dwellers, and a family of humans were in an ark. Again, that's just another explanation.

As to the original question, rileyj... would dinosaurs have evolved? Well, according to science, most everything evolves, right? Would they have developed intelligence? Following an evolutionary progression, they would have developed whatever was necessary for their survival. If they could not survive, they would have died off slowly, right? Why haven't crocs changed (much)? Freethinker is right, from an evolutionary standpoint, the croc is low to the ground, AND lives in/near water. They have very few natural predators, even most people tend to leave them alone (stupid tv crews notwithstanding), and they are well-suited to their environment.

As for the shrew... man, maybe we DID evolve, and i just never lost that 'shrewishness', huh?

JUST KIDDING!!!!

[ScienceGuy]

For the sake of saving this thread, I will not do the creation debate in here. We'll save that for the other thread.

Until further finds are made that show evolution in small stages resulting in astronomical advances this question is always going to be answered based on bias opinion. Those who do believe in God will answer in a few different ways, and evolutionists or atheists will try to say it differently.

My view: Based on a religous perspective and my view (sorry freethinker, I am giving opinion of science based on what I see) dinosaurs would evolve, but the rate at which they would evolve would not be the same as what others consider. I believe that birds and fish and some other sea creatures were made by God at about the same time. Theropod dinosaurs evolved from a variety of bird-like animals. This could account for the many theropods that had feathers. It is also much easier to lose those feathers if they were not needed for flight. The feather is an elegant design that would need more than a fluke of nature to pop out of nowhere on a raptor all over its body and in a couple millions of years you accomplish powered flight. For those of you who want to challenge this theory, answer this.

Which is more believable?

A whole bunch of raptors all were evolving feathers at the same time, for which it would not have benefited some, along with all the other neccessary things that needed to evolve to fly and evolution had the key to do it.

OR

Bird-like animals that were created warm-blooded found a niche in which they could live on land which did not require the use of flight. By evolutionary processes, they lost some of the unneeded feathers, which accounts for the fossils we find today. Relatively unchanged for quite a while these animals did evolve, but not into completely different classes of animals.

 

Fish and other marine animals evolved little also unless you take size into account. The bigger an animal was the harder it was to take down. Therefore you get sauropods growing to outdo the therapods and the therapods growing to keep up.

If they had not gone extinct, I believe they would have continued on an evolutionary track, but again, I don't think it would have been a fast paced track that evolutionists of today think. Intelligence would most likely not appeared in any of the dinosaurs.

This is why I can explain that crocodile in my terms. It has evolved very little; same as any other created animal. It was able to survive based on what they said. Evolution will occur given time, but just how much we have yet to realize.

Freethinker, before you rip this apart, these are my views based on what I believe. Do not attack my beliefs, attack the science. It may be myth to you, but God is important to me. I have faith. I wish you could too.

[Freethinker]

Originally posted by: IrishEyes

<i> What is even funnier, is that the same ones that would try to use the evolutionary survival of a well adapted species would reject this very same species history when it exposes the fallacy of a short earth history. Hard to have a species that has been around 200 million years when the earth has only been here 6-8 thousand. </i>

 

Freethinker, why do you have to keep coming back to GOD? I mean, I'm all for it, but really... rileyj was asking a question. rileyj asked about dinosaurs.

 

If you read the top of the post you quoted this from, you will see I was replying to the misnamed "Scienceguy". He changed the questions from one about dinos and evolution of them, to one out of the Creationists playbook. I framed my reply based on where such Creationist mumbo jumbo comes from.

 

I submitted a 2nd post in reply to rileyj which had no god crap in it. And the post each specifically indicate it.

[Freethinker]

<blockquote>Quote

<hr><i>Originally posted by: <b>IrishEyes</b></i>

Freethinker's explanation is a good one, and very plausible.<hr></blockquote>

 

Sorry, I couldn't hear you. Could you repeat that

 

<center><font size="+2">Freethinker's explanation is a good one, and very plausible

 

:-)</Font></center>

 

Couldn't help myself! I don't see that around here much!

[Freethinker]

Originally posted by: IrishEyes

Another explanation is that the earth IS young, most dinosaurs were killed off by the flood, crocs survived as they are water dwellers, and a family of humans were in an ark. Again, that's just another explanation.

 

It would only be an "explanation" if it fit the FACTS surrounding it. 7,000 year old trees still living with overlapping contiguous remains going back almost 10,000 kinda destroy a 6,000 year old earth myth. Crocs can not live exclusively in water, so would not survive a flood for the duration pretended....

 

As for the shrew... man, maybe we DID evolve, and i just never lost that 'shrewishness',

 

Don't start aping for Evolution!

[Freethinker]

Originally posted by: ScienceGuy

For the sake of saving this thread, I will not do the creation debate in here. We'll save that for the other thread.

OK! let's see how truthful he is:

Until further finds are made that show evolution...

 

Ya, I figured as much!

 

You didn't want to stop the Creation debate here. You just wanted others to stop showing why you are wrong about evolution.

[Freethinker]

Originally posted by: ScienceGuy

My view: (...I am giving opinion of science based on what I see) dinosaurs would evolve,

 

Consistancy is an interesting test of the truth of a person's views. I have stated many times that one of the problems with discussions with beleivers is their lack of consistancy. They change what they say willy nilll as it suits that particular moment. Here is another example of it. Above, ScienceGuy STATES that evolution DOES happen, that " dinosaurs would evolve.

 

Yet he takes a contradictory stance on the Evolution thread:

 

Thu Apr 15, 2004 3:48 PM

Originally posted by: ScienceGuy

Evolution has never been proven.

 

Either ScienceGuy finally got around to actually researching evolution and found how strongly factual it is, or he is just being a believer and does not care about being consistant.

[Freethinker]

Originally posted by: ScienceGuy

Freethinker, before you rip this apart, these are my views based on what I believe. Do not attack my beliefs, attack the science. It may be myth to you, but God is important to me. I have faith. I wish you could too.

 

1) I attacked your lack of consistancy, your lack of logical, rational construction of argument.

 

2) I could not attack "the science" as there wasn't any.

 

3) when you have FACTS, you don't need FAITH.

 

4) It is obvious that you are addicted to the god myth. It is shown by the level to which you will stoop to ignore facts.

 

5) I provide Facts, "I wish you could too."

[rileyj]

"Ya got to love the attempt to minimallize Evolution. When in reality all it shows is the "viewers bias". Christians think of themselves as something special. They have a secret! They have a special relationship with their god! Naturally therefore, they hold their place in the cosmos to be superior to all other beings. Oh they will never admit this because they like to feel they are being persecuted. Their book tells them that if they are doing it right, they will be. So they don;t want to "brag" too much. But they still like to feel they have a special place in the universe.

 

One of the proofs that makes this empirically self evident is the way they always hold themselves up as THE point of reference. Like when discussing Evolution. It isn't how evolution works. It's where it puts them. "

 

 

 

PLEASE NO RELIGIOUS TALK STICK TO THREAD

[rileyj]

what if raptors were highly intelligent. if theywere pack hunters than they would need a means of communication. if they weren't killed off by a meteor (flood, etc..) those times of dino's have they best chance to evolve intelligence.

[ScienceGuy]

Originally posted by: Freethinker

<blockquote>Quote

<hr><i>Originally posted by: <b>ScienceGuy</b></i>

For the sake of saving this thread, I will not do the creation debate in here. We'll save that for the other thread.<hr></blockquote>

OK! let's see how truthful he is:

<blockquote>Quote

<hr>Until further finds are made that show evolution...<hr></blockquote>

 

Ya, I figured as much!

 

You didn't want to stop the Creation debate here. You just wanted others to stop showing why you are wrong about evolution.

[ScienceGuy]

I do remember the first post where I did mention that I believe creation and evolution did/do happen. I don't remember deviating from that theory. I do recall asking you many questions that you don't seem to reply to. What is the matter? Do you have a problem quoting and answering the scientific questions? I think you are only here to give Christian views the ax based on your bias arrogance and bitterness. You have not given me fact. You give me reasons why Christians put themselves ahead of everyone else (supposedly). I have asked for your stance on evolution since I know your stance on religion. You have not replied to it. All you come up with is opinion based on your hatred of Christianity or God.

I replied to the evolution of dinosaurs because I believe they did evolve. I also believe that therapods came from bird ancestors which God created. Is that plain enough for everyone? If you want to discuss dinosaur evolution any further, please tell me why I am wrong on a scientific level. I have given you an explanation, give me yours. I will not accept the answer of "creation is a myth." That is based on your opinion with no scientific fact, or give scientific fact that says creation did not happen.

Please stop dodging the important questions that should be asked of this topic.

[Freethinker]

Originally posted by: rileyj

what if raptors were highly intelligent. if theywere pack hunters than they would need a means of communication. if they weren't killed off by a meteor (flood, etc..) those times of dino's have they best chance to evolve intelligence.

 

You are still working from an anthropomorphic view. You seem to have an a priori acceptance of intellegence as an automatic direction for advancement in evolution, That given long enough any species left standing will have gained intellegence along the way.

 

But every example we have shows the other way around. The longest lasting creatures tend to have the least intellegence.

 

In fact, one might wonder if intellegence is potentially a limiting factor in the evolutionary process.