The Evolution of Education

[IrishEyes]

I was wondering what the general concensus is on the state of public education in the US. If you live in another country, please feel free to share your views of your own situation. I have read a number of posts from this site, and others, that speak of what is wrong with our societies, governments, etc. My personal belief is that many things could be improved if education became a priority, not just for politicians but also for parents. What is wrong with public education? What is wrong with the voucher idea? Why is homeschooling wrong, or is it? Who gets to decide what our next generation should know, and by what age, and WHY? What types of sciences should every child have to learn, and why? Should there be a national standard for educational goals in this country?

Also, if this question would be better suited to another topic, please feel free to offer your suggestions.

[Freethinker]

My first suggestion is to read a short book:

 

American Inquisitors Walter Lippmann

 

Walter Lippman's take on the doings at Dayton (originally published in 1928). Contains a Socratic Dialog dialogue between Thomas Jefferson, William Jennings Bryan, and Socrates that is so good!

[IrishEyes]

Thanks, Freethinker, i will check out your book suggestion. I appreciate any chance to read a new and different point of view on things, and i LOVE those types of dialogues! However, my question still stands. I don't just want to read a book, I want YOUR view. I want everybody's view on this. I homeschool my children, and i constantly struggle with what to expect from them according to society's views of what is necessary to be considered 'educated'. They read Plato, and know their scientific method (ok, I used ICSTARS for the little ones, but it was an introduction for them!), we've discussed evolution (I actually used some of your arguments for this, Freethinker), they are learning a foreign language, their dad is teaching them LINUX, but these are things that are important to US, not the U.S.

I know what I have used from my past experiences in education. I know how many times I've 'solved for x' and why that is practical; how often I've used polynomials in daily life (rarely, I admit); and when I've needed to know what 'speciation' and 'abiogenesis' are (used more in the last 10 days than 10 years!). I know what my specific state requires that I 'teach' them, and that other states have different requirements. Why is that? I understand that states are in charge of their own educational systems, and that the federal gov't doesn't control that, but WHY? And i'm asking for the realistic WHY, not the Constitutional legalities behind federally legislating educational requirements. I mean, moving from one state to another is as bad as moving to another country in some cases. Why is there no accepted standard? And if there should be one, WHO should be able to make it?

Anyhow, I'm off to Borders to try to find American Inquisitors , and I'll let you know what I think in a few days. Thanks for the suggestion.

[IrishEyes]

Alas, no luck at any of the big book barns. But i did find a copy online, and it'll be here in a week or so. i'll let you know what i think when i read it, but would still appreciate your thoughts on the rest.

thanks!!!

[rileyj]

"I was wondering what the general concensus is on the state of public education in the US."

 

overall it needs work

 

"What is wrong with public education?"

 

one thing is that public school teach the basics, they feel that most of the children will be middle class blue collar people so thats what they get them ready for. iwent to public school and a private broading school. the biggest difference is smaller class rooms which is a must. small means easier to teach and understand matieral, less amount of kids to watch so less of a chance they fool around, in public school i noticed all the kids just fooled around, talked didnt pay attention. and private complete 180. and it wasn't the kids it was the evironent. i think

every classroom should have a camrea in it, not for the kids but to watch the teachers.

 

" What is wrong with the voucher idea?"

 

what is that? heard of it before but vague what it is.

 

Why is homeschooling wrong, or is it?

 

depends on the parent, if the public school had high standards and good teachers than, they should go to school. in school you have a teacher for every subject, that means you have person who teaches the material many times a day for many years (hopefully). that means you kid is being taught each subject by profeesional in that area. which is going to be better than 1 or 2 parents teaching everything.

 

" Who gets to decide what our next generation should know, and by what age, and WHY? "

 

math, science , history , art , music, government (depending on where you live). i'm sure there are others but you get the point. i say government not so people can be basis against other governments but so they can learn to live in and change their own. age should only factor when determining what they are capiable of fully understanding. sex ed is a tough one. i think in middle school, thats when those hormones get going. any early the parents need to do it themselves (which should be done anyway). why? well because weather by god or not our mind is the tool giving to us that is our greatest strength, it is the one thing we need to make sure grows.

 

What types of sciences should every child have to learn, and why?

 

science is very important, it allows us to understand our world and the universe. of course only things that can be proven should be taught and if it is unknown what is right all views ahould be looked at and taught.

 

Should there be a national standard for educational goals in this country?

 

of course

[geko]

The education system teaches conformity in my opinion. This is why it's illegal to sorely educate your own children - albeit you can do it as well, but the bulk is given to them in the form of curriculums. Everybody learns relatively the same thing because if they didnt they would become individuals and freethinkers. This cant be allowed because it equals power.

 

Just thought i'd share my pro-individualistic, 'freedom-loving' stance will the lot 'o ya......... i thought it suited the thread

[IrishEyes]

This is why it's illegal to sorely educate your own children - albeit you can do it as well, but the bulk is given to them in the form of curriculums. Everybody learns relatively the same thing because if they didnt they would become individuals and freethinkers. This cant be allowed because it equals power.

 

I totally agree with this! Except I'm not sure what you mean by This is why it's illegal to sorely educate your own children . I have my children out of the public 'education' system, and we don't use a 'standard' c'ric. Actually, we are considered "unschoolers" by most everyone we know, and it doesn't always go over well with the grandparents. And I DO agree that knowledge = POWER (sounds like an old Saturday morning sing-along, huh?).

 

Freethinker, I read a post of yours on another thread talking about vouchers and why they were wrong, but forgot the gist of your argument. Care to share it again? Also, are you a Liberatarian?

 

rileyj, thanks for your insights! I've never been sent away to Boarding School, and it sounds very expensive. I do think that higher education should be available to everyone, but that's probably never going to happen.

[IrishEyes]

" What is wrong with the voucher idea?"

 

what is that? heard of it before but vague what it is.

 

There are many people that support a 'school voucher' program. Basically, parents would get to choose whether to send their children to the local public school, or to receive a 'voucher' from the government to help pay tuition at a private school. There are some cities in the US that have already had 'success' with pilot programs involving vouchers.

 

Generally speaking, Republicans are FOR vouchers, and Democrats are against vouchers. It sounds like a grand idea on the surface, especially to low-income families in poor areas that could never realistically afford private school. It's a way for them to get their kids out of really bad public schools. Sounds great, right? The catch is that the voucher money comes out of the public school budget.

 

Currently in my state, for every school-age child that lives in a school district, the district receives money from the governement to educate said child. Here, the school even gets the money, or at least a big part of it, if the child does not attend the public school, such as my homeschooled children. The school district is making money off of our family, as they are still getting paid for us being in the district, but we are not using any of their facilities. A Voucher program would give that money to me instead. Or I could take the voucher money and pay for my kids to go to a private school (that'd never happen, but it would be my choice).

 

So, theoretically, I would get a big portion of my 'school tax' money back to pay for educating my children however I see fit. This is, as usual, a very simplified explanation, but you get the idea. Why are people against it? It would take money away from the very school districts that need money the most. How will our public education system ever improve if government money is diverted to private schools? Another part of the argument is that theoretically the GOVERNMENT vouchers could be used to pay for tuition at a private RELIGIOUS school. Anyhow, those are the main arguments for and against vouchers. What do you guys think?

[rileyj]

The education system teaches conformity in my opinion. This is why it's illegal to sorely educate your own children - albeit you can do it as well, but the bulk is given to them in the form of curriculums. Everybody learns relatively the same thing because if they didnt they would become individuals and freethinkers. This cant be allowed because it equals power"

 

Everybody learns relatively the same thing because everyone needs to know the basics. how does learning math science history etc.. stop someone from becoming and individual?

[IrishEyes]

Everybody learns relatively the same thing because everyone needs to know the basics. how does learning math science history etc.. stop someone from becoming and individual?

 

I don't know if you have children or not, but if you do - have you taken a look at their homework lately? Have you been in a classroom to help a teacher? It's really a sad state of affairs!

 

The schools are generally more concerned with their funding status than the quality of education of the children. I saw this so often, and it just saddened and sickened me. The school my children attended was a very good school, compared to others they could have attended elsewhere in our state. The student to teacher ratio was decent. The classrooms were clean. the building was new. Every class had computers. It was much better than what I had as a child. But the teachers spent so much time teaching the kids to prepare for the state's standardized testing every year that the kids often didn't get to actually LEARN!

 

One of my children had a fourth grade standardized test for History in the spring. The test is supposed to measure how well students retained what they were taught during the year, from a pre-determined state standard curriculum. The test was to be given the first week of April. The entire month of March was spent reviewing for this test. No spelling words were given. No math tests were given. No extra reading was given. Nothing new was taught. My child was so wound up about this test it was pathetic. Mind you, this test had no bearing on grades, or whether or not the children would advance. The school needed to get a certain % of kids to pass in order to stay accredited, and receive all of their gov't funding. I think this is pretty common for most state's. My child scored incredibly high on the exam. And do you know what that child learned? "Patrick Henry had red hair". That is the extent of retention from that entire year for 'history'. The teacher told them that as soon as the test was over, they could forget it all. I can not tell you how utterly disgusted I was!!

 

However, as for your question... everyone learning the same thing in the same subjects, using the same textbooks does stifle individualism. And children are not taught to think critically in schools. They are spoon-fed information and asked to regurgitate it for exams, then allowed to 'data-dump' it to make room for the next batch of spoon-fed knowledge. If your child writes a paper using a point of view that is not widely accepted, they are ridiculed. If they show creativity, it is stifled. It's like that car commercial a few years ago, with the little girl coloring the picture, and the old hag teacher yelling "Stay between the lines" at her!! Besides, if you actually read a history book from the public school, you'd probably be either sickened or astounded. I could not believe the outright lies that were printed in my child's books. History is, IMO, the worst subject. But there are others that are almost as bad.

 

Anyhow, public education is my pet peeve. I would like to change it from the inside, but to do that, I'd have to put my children back there, and I'm just not altruistic enough to sacrifice them :>) I guess I'll just have to wait until the youngest is out of the house to try to solve that particular problem!

[Tormod]

IrishEyes - I can certainly understand your concern about the public school system. I have children myself but they are not yet at school age. We live in Norway and I have no qualms sending my daughters to a public school (well, we hardly have any private schools, and they are mostly religious), but the state of affairs is not exactly what it should be in a rich country like Norway.

 

I think one problem is standardization, yes. Any educational system also has the problem of having to teach huge amounts of kids the same things year after year, while trying to keep up with general progress (even technical - witness the IT revolution...). There will of course never be a consensus on exactly what a school should teach.

 

I recently saw a program on Swedish television about a school where they had no homework. These kids actually learnt much more - and had much more free time, which I think is more important to kids than endless rote learning. How they spend this free time is of course important, but a slightly different issue.

 

I am not sure that teaching the same things and using the same textbooks is a real problem (as long as the textbooks are good). I think the problem is how the system encourages rote learning instead of critical thinking. The kids learn that things work in this and that way, but not *why* or for what reason.

 

A lot of bright kids come out of every school system, so it can't be all bad. But there is certainly something not quite right. It could be funding, level of quality among teachers, availability of good material, etc etc.

 

I don't have anything wise to say here, I guess. Just wanted to chime in. I know I was extremely tired of school when I graduated from high school in 1989.

 

Tormod

[IrishEyes]

Tormod, thanks for your opinion.

 

I agree with many of your ideas. I disagree with rote learning. And I totally support the no homework/more free time idea. We homeschool, and that is basically how we do things. Of course, it was a hard sell for a husband who was used to institution-type learning. However, as my youngest son learned to read in less than 3 months, with no 'formal' lessons, no intervention, and no pressure, my husband now thinks maybe I'm not sucha hippie when it comes to education. I have a lot of radical ideas, but most of them have already been published in one form or another. I love reading anything by John Holt for inspiration. Those are great books if you have more than one child and they display very different attitudes towards learning.

 

Oh, BTW, the mail lady dropped off the book you suggested today, Freethinker. So after my LONG weekend visit with my atheist brother and darling niece, I'll start it and let you know what I think. Again, thanks for the suggestion, it looks AWESOME!

[Freethinker]

Oh man! Talk about a subject I could write a book about! At least just to cover my observations, ideas, experience, ...

 

First I have to acknowledge that living in the US, I can only speak to and from that experience.

 

First, the education system in the US is all screwed up. I feel the basic fault for this is that the Public Education system is being pulled in every direction from all the various ideologies. It is trying to be/ not be, so many things, it is not doing anything well. One side wants to defund it with the goal to eliminate it. (No irisheyes, I am NOT a Libertarian) Others wwant to force their ideology into it's curriculum. Some think the best method is local control, others Federal intervention. What we wind up with is so many pushes and pulls from every direction that it can't do anything of value.

 

Then there is the issue of the Educational Empire itself. Lots of little fiefdoms. Each class, school, district, state trying to fight for it's own existence. Each person trying to secure their future income.

 

AS is expressed in the book I reccommended (and irisheyes is about to read) one of the problems is these outside influences. The politicos want the students to be taught Patriotism. That is to promote that countries current structure as superior to all others. That at the cost of factual extensive education. Others want to see their personal ideology interjected, such as Creationists. This etends to all areas of education.

 

e.g. all History texts published in the US go thru committees before being published. There are committees from most politically selected ideology. There is a Catholic committee that makes sure that nothing in the history books casts too negative of a light on Catholicism. Not detailed attack on such efforts as the Crusades or Inquisition. Oh they are mentioned, but not in any way that would make them seem BAD. There is an Islamic committee, to make sure that history books don't say anything bad about it.... Of course Pagan, Atheist, ... groups are not given this level of control. For instance, I have never heard of a US History class anywhere in the US that discusses the Treaty with Tripoli. It is an official document, passed unanomously by the 1st Congress, started by Washington, signed by Adams, that states "As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion,---". But you can be sure that the Christian committees would never let this historical document thru.

 

And what of morality? Public Schools are so afraid of teaching something that this or that group is against, they teach nothing. Well, OK, that is not entirely correct. They teach what the group with the most political pull forces them to. Such as Abstinence Only. Even though this approach has PROVED to be HARMFUL, it is the only one that is funded and as the schools are so underfunded, they accept the money and restrict teaching other, more useful aproaches. Or the infamous D.A.R.E. program. PROVEN time after time to actually INCREASE the possiblity of alcohol, tobacco and drug use by those taking it, it stays well funded and popular in schools.

 

The schools also do not want to approach morals and ethics from a SECULAR direction, that is one that does not promote any specific singular sectarian version. Otherwise this or that Sectarian group would complain that it's ideology is being attacked.

 

Thus NOTHING is taught.

 

We also hear about local control. I was a "Community Representitive" in my kids' "Site Committee". It was a group who's mission was to differentiate itself from every other school that exists anywhere in the world. I had hoped it's mission was to IMPROVE the shcool with one tool being knowledge gained by other schools. But NO! We spent our time trying to identify ways that we were different from the school a mile away. It was merely to justify the expense of additional School Admin people needed to have site committees for each school.

 

Then we hear about Vouchers. As is the case, this i

[Tim_Lou]

education in the united states are pretty good. (better than china, really)

 

one thing i wannt point out, is that school is like a jail. really, there are all kinds of restriction. back in china, there is a little break between every periods, during that time, you can do whatever you want and have some fun. and you wont feel that your trapped into a little buildings.

 

this is what is lacking in here, periods after periods, really boring, even in lunch period you gotta stay in cafe. thats so boring! this really affects the motivation to learn.

 

(it is about my school, dont know if its the same to others)

[Tim_Lou]

another thing is that there are so many restriction for high level classes. what i mean is that if i wanna jump over certain course and go to ap class or whatever. you need lots of recommendation and stuffs.

 

as you know, im a chinese, my english is not very good obviously. but the science classes are WAY TOO STUPID than what my level really is. but they wont let me jump over certain classes, even if i said that i learnt all these in china. (im getting A+ in math and science class w/out really studying)

 

the thing is, they dont give you a chance, you dont have a chance to exert what your really good at.

 

 

(this is only for my school...)

(and, im living in NJ)

[Tim_Lou]

another thing i wanna point out.

 

colleges care too much about the SAT!!!! damn SAT!!!

im good studient, but not good in english, now im goona mess in the SAT, and in college and my life!!!!

 

SAT means nothing, the math part is stupid, the english part is only about vocabs. im gonna be doing really bad on the eng part and mess up my college life!

[Tim_Lou]

yes, tormod, i agree w/ you, im so tried of high school even though im still in it.

T_T

 

"high school sux" thats almost everybody's opinion of high school.