What would it take to prove the existence of a God?

[GAHD]

I vote 3; Jesus, the Christian god and his heaven are all be fairytales, because the Paradox of the I.P.U. must have destroyed them before they hada chance to truely exist!

 

Seriously, I don't think we'll be doing (much) more tag-team goofyness(you did ask for it). Question seems simple enough, and don't worry about getting "Big G." angry; ((S)he/it) knows all your thoughts anyways. You could ask your religious councel (confessioner) on the matter if you yourself don't know.

 

Not to be rude here, but that is unless you're a mennonite (with a computer?) in which case they'll probably cane you for even thinking it. It happened in my area, let's just say 'Tough' is the meaning of THEIR God's love. Yet another reason to become happily devoted to the infallable invisible pink uninicorn (of preeverlastingnessitude).

[Freethinker]

I think the question is perfectly on topic and that is why I think we would all benefit from an answer. In order to understand what someone means when they respond to:

 

what would it take to prove the existence of a God? "

 

You have to understand what it takes for them to accept something. I think from what we have seen, that it takes more to convince me and Tormod of something then it does some others around here. It would help to understand how someone looks at knowledge they have. If they are willing to question it and to what extent. I have often stated specifically that everything I accept is open to question, examination and ulitmately rejection and replacement if I was shown valid reasons to.

 

I am trying to get that understanding of others by asking the question. Can other state that everything they promote here is subject to rejection and replacement if it was shown that it should be? That would require, for a Christian, to state that their whole god myth may NOT be true, no Jesus, no heaven, no hell. And thus you do not know for sure that you are going to heaven if you are willing to state heaven may not exist. And even if it did, you may not be using the right approach to get there.

 

I can say that for Evolution or the BB. Can a Christian for their dogma?

 

"What would it take to prove the existence of a God?"

[Freethinker]

Originally posted by: IrishEyes

The same is heard from people addicted to anything.

 

Oh come on...that was just a little bit low!

 

No, it is truthful and accurate.

[Freethinker]

We should decide whether this topic or "Creating a Religion" is the one we continue.

 

The advantage of this one is it has a history.

 

The advantage of the other is it doesn't have a history! :-)

[sanctus]

I think we should continue on both topics, for me "creating a religion" and "what would it take..." have similarities, but there are possible developpements from each are different.

 

But, if you prefer writing only in one, then i propose "creating a religion", because it easier for new people to join in as it is at the moment shorter.

[Freethinker]

Ops

[Freethinker]

OK, trying to get this thread back on topic

Originally posted by: Freethinker

Irish, you never did answer my direct question. I am reposting to give you the opportunity to correct your oversite.

 

Originally posted by: IrishEyes

 

 

Originally posted by: FreethinkerOnly Christians are selfrighteous enough to make such absurd claims to perfect knowledge.

 

And again I say "YOU ARE A GOOF"!!!

 

I don't claim perfect knowledge, but everyone here knows I HAVE IT!! :>P (that was a JOKE!!!)

 

Seriously, it is statements like the above that leave people feeling personally attacked. Not ALL Christians are 'selfrighteous enough to make absurd claims to perfect knowledge'. In fact, i would say that the ONLY one that can claim PERFECT KNOWLEDGE is GOD, or IPU, or whatever you want to call it! LOL.

 

Am I going to have to go back and pull your previous quotes. The ones where you specifically say that even though you can not PROVE that your god exists, you KNOW that he DOES. and NOTHING will EVER change that knowledge for you? Please be honest enough to admit you said it so I don't have to waste the time showing everyone that you in fact DID say it. We both KNOW you did.

 

 

 

It is this very thought process which PROVES my point. A Christian will state that they KNOW their god exists whether they can show ANY proof or not. That IS a claim of PERFECT Knowledge.

 

 

 

Or are you going to acknowledge that someone that THINKS there MAY BE a god and it MIGHT fit the Christian def, perhaps including some LIMITED parts of the bible, actually IS a Christian. (And don't use the dodge of "thinks" they are a Christian, IS a Christian)

 

 

 

Or are you willing to admit right here and now, contrary to your earlier posts, that there is every chance in the world that you might be wrong about the very existence of your god? That you do NOT know if there was a god made man we call Jesus on earth some 2,000 years ago. That it COULD all be fiction. And that you DON'T know if you are going to heaven or not?

 

 

 

Or do you have PERFECT KNOWLEDGE and you KNOW your god exists, Jesus was his son here on earth and that knowledge guarantees you will go to heaven.

 

 

 

Which is it? Vote NOW!

 

 

 

1) Jesus, the Christian god and his heaven could all be fairytales

 

 

 

2) I have perfect knowledge that the Christian god is real and the only god there is and Jesus was his son here on earth and I am going to heaven.

 

 

Which is it? Vote NOW!

 

 

 

1) Jesus, the Christian god and his heaven could all be fairytales

 

 

 

2) I have perfect knowledge that the Christian god is real and the only god there is and Jesus was his son here on earth and I am going to heaven.

[CD27]

it takes your entire life to prove the existence of god. no matter how much proof you have, the atheists will always say, "well they made that up, i want to see it" and then, even if you find a way to let them see it, they'll still deny its existence. god is really just not something that can be proven. but he can be belived in. i am a fairly big christian, though i am human and do have mistakes, just as everyone does.

[Tormod]

Originally posted by: CD27

god is really just not something that can be proven. but he can be belived in.

 

Agreed. But he can also not be believed in. That is the issue.

 

Tormod

[Guinness]

Not sure if this may be considered off topic but there is a quantum physicist, Amit Goswami, who has some interesting ideas. Here is a link to an interview of his. He suggests everything may exist as purely potential until at such time a concious entity recognizes it. Seems to lend itself well to a God creating the universe. I haven't read any of his books and only recently began to read some of his ideas but without the background in quantum physics I'm not sure if I'll ever fully understand his claims but it's interesting none the less.

[Freethinker]

Originally posted by: CD27

it takes your entire life to prove the existence of god. no matter how much proof you have, the atheists will always say, "well they made that up, i want to see it" and then, even if you find a way to let them see it, they'll still deny its existence.

How typical. First the Christian claims to have all this PROOF of their god's existence. Yet they themselves KNOW that what they have is so absurdly lacking that they then admit it does jnot exist

god is really just not something that can be proven.

Yet the complete contradiction between the statements is something they are not able to internalize fully. They know if they are truthful with themselves, as they are with the rest of us, that they would have to drop their fairytale. And they are either not capable of, or willing to face reality. My current sig, a quote from Einstien, put's in proper persepctive. "the idea of a personal God is a childlike one ... feeble souls harbor such thoughts through fear or ridiculous egotisms."

but he can be belived in.

ANYTHING, no matter how crazy, can be "believed in".

 

REALITY can be PROVED.

 

Then it no longer needs to be "believed in". It can be accepted.

i am a fairly big christian,

Try Akins.

[Freethinker]

Originally posted by: Guinness

Not sure if this may be considered off topic but there is a quantum physicist, Amit Goswami, who has some interesting ideas.

In an intitial Google of this guy, I ran across this interview, it starts...

" Before you read any further, stop and close your eyes for a moment. Now consider the following question: for the moment your eyes were closed, did the world still exist even though you weren't conscious of it? How do you know? If this sounds like the kind of unanswerable brain teaser your Philosophy 101 professor used to employ to stretch your philosophical imagination, you might be surprised to discover that there are actually physicists at reputable universities who believe they have answered this question—and their answer, believe it or not, is no."

I am glad they stated it as "physicists at reputable universities who believe", instead of "reputable physicists". What a crock!

 

Think of how simple it is to disprove this nonsense. Simply put TWO people in the same room and have one keep their eyes open. If closing one's eyes makes their existence stop, the one with the open eyes would notice the other disappear! lol!

 

Or let the the single person in the room talk to someone outside the room. If "Mr Eyes Closed" stopped existing, the other person would be talking to themselves suddenly.

 

When people starting rambling all kinds of convoluted rhetoric before they can espouse their claims, they KNOW thery have nothing of substance to offer and have to load the front end up.

 

Goswami states: " Conventionally, Western philosophers attribute properties of consciousness - experience and choice - to the mind. This has been corrected in quantum functionalism in which consciousness is defined to transcend both matter and mind. " Ya let's invent phrases cause they sound neat and twist the meanings of already established terms so they no longer mean the same thing. Common trick of those lacking facts.

 

Goswami seems to just be another mystical guru trying despe5rately to club QM into a form that can justify his psudeoscience.

He suggests everything may exist as purely potential until at such time a concious entity recognizes it. Seems to lend itself well to a God creating the universe.

Actually, QM and wave collapse is mutually exclusive of an intellegent first agent concept.

but without the background in quantum physics I'm not sure if I'll ever fully understand his claims

WHich is exactly what people like him rely on. It sells more books.

[Freethinker]

Ah, Irish is back!

 

Now maybe I can get an answer to my question?

 

Originally posted by: Freethinker

OK, trying to get this thread back on topic

Originally posted by: Freethinker

Irish, you never did answer my direct question. I am reposting to give you the opportunity to correct your oversite.

Originally posted by: IrishEyes

Originally posted by: FreethinkerOnly Christians are selfrighteous enough to make such absurd claims to perfect knowledge.

And again I say "YOU ARE A GOOF"!!!

I don't claim perfect knowledge, but everyone here knows I HAVE IT!! :>P (that was a JOKE!!!)

 

Seriously, it is statements like the above that leave people feeling personally attacked. Not ALL Christians are 'selfrighteous enough to make absurd claims to perfect knowledge'. In fact, i would say that the ONLY one that can claim PERFECT KNOWLEDGE is GOD, or IPU, or whatever you want to call it! LOL.

 

Am I going to have to go back and pull your previous quotes. The ones where you specifically say that even though you can not PROVE that your god exists, you KNOW that he DOES. and NOTHING will EVER change that knowledge for you? Please be honest enough to admit you said it so I don't have to waste the time showing everyone that you in fact DID say it. We both KNOW you did.

 

It is this very thought process which PROVES my point. A Christian will state that they KNOW their god exists whether they can show ANY proof or not. That IS a claim of PERFECT Knowledge.

 

Or are you going to acknowledge that someone that THINKS there MAY BE a god and it MIGHT fit the Christian def, perhaps including some LIMITED parts of the bible, actually IS a Christian. (And don't use the dodge of "thinks" they are a Christian, IS a Christian)

 

Or are you willing to admit right here and now, contrary to your earlier posts, that there is every chance in the world that you might be wrong about the very existence of your god? That you do NOT know if there was a god made man we call Jesus on earth some 2,000 years ago. That it COULD all be fiction. And that you DON'T know if you are going to heaven or not?

 

Or do you have PERFECT KNOWLEDGE and you KNOW your god exists, Jesus was his son here on earth and that knowledge guarantees you will go to heaven.

 

Which is it? Vote NOW!

 

1) Jesus, the Christian god and his heaven could all be fairytales

 

2) I have perfect knowledge that the Christian god is real and the only god there is and Jesus was his son here on earth and I am going to heaven.

[Freethinker]

It's here Irish, we've been waiting.

[Guinness]

Originally Posted by: Freethinker

" Before you read any further, stop and close your eyes for a moment. Now consider the following question: for the moment your eyes were closed, did the world still exist even though you weren't conscious of it? How do you know? If this sounds like the kind of unanswerable brain teaser your Philosophy 101 professor used to employ to stretch your philosophical imagination, you might be surprised to discover that there are actually physicists at reputable universities who believe they have answered this question—and their answer, believe it or not, is no."

I am glad they stated it as "physicists at reputable universities who believe", instead of "reputable physicists". What a crock!

 

Think of how simple it is to disprove this nonsense. Simply put TWO people in the same room and have one keep their eyes open. If closing one's eyes makes their existence stop, the one with the open eyes would notice the other disappear! lol!

 

I don't know who wrote that, but I don't think they full understand what Goswami meant. Shutting your eyes doesn't make you unconscious and certainly isn't enough to disprove the theory.

[IrishEyes]

Ok, FreeT, I'm going to give this a shot, since you've waited so, er, patiently.

 

You are asking me to either declare that I am an egomaniacal narrow-minded prat, or that God is possibly a faerie-tale, right?

 

Geez, this is a tough one, isn't it. You've really put me in a bind here. I have no idea what to say to get me out of this horrible predicament! How, oh how, do I match you at your game? Your wit is far superior. Your intellect is staggering! I'm so very scared to answer your incredibly difficult question. What ever shall I do???

 

Oh yeah, I almost forgot... this is one that my lil ones taught me... all as one now... "GOD is bigger than the...boogie man! He's bigger than Godzilla or the monsters on t.v. .... yeah, GOD is bigger than the boogie man, and He's watching over you and me!" That's the best thing my kids ever learned off of tv. But then again, that was a Veggie Tales movie that I bought for them, so it probably doesn't count!

 

Seriously though, what do I say?

 

Is it possible that Jesus, God, and all the stories in the Bible are just that - STORIES? That Jesus never walked the earth as a man? That God is a myth invented about 4,000 years ago, in order to explain 'unexplainable' mysteries? That it's all a hoax that has been perpetuated by others through time, and that will continue to exist as religious dogma for many until their death?

 

Or am I the uber-Christian? Will I astound you all with my obvious superiority by claiming PERFECT KNOWLEDGE of the all-knowing Allmighty? Dare I?

 

Will I claim Him or deny Him? Those are my choices??!!?? I feel like Peter, waiting for the third crowing... Oh pish, I'm with whoever said "DOOR NUMBER THREE", except I think they were wrong about what was behind that door.

 

FreeT, not for the first time, and certainly not the last, will I disagree with you. "It is this very thought process which PROVES my point. A Christian will state that they KNOW their god exists whether they can show ANY proof or not. That IS a claim of PERFECT Knowledge. " I totally disagree. I have never seriously claimed to have PERFECT anything, much less 'perfect knowledge'. If you will check, I am quite sure that I even specifically stated that the only one to have PERFECT KNOWLEDGE was God (or IPU or whatever you wanted to call Him these days).

 

Do I believe that God exists? Yes, I do. Do I believe that Jesus was His son, and came to earth and lived as a man, and was crucified, buried and rose again? Yes, I do. Do I believe that in order to get to Heaven, I have to believe in Jesus? Yes, I do. Do I believe that a belief in Jesus, and a personal relationship with Him as God's son and my Redeemer, PLUS NOTHING ELSE I DO, will get me to Heaven? Yes, I do. Do I believe that God has revealed every aspect of Himself to me, so that I may claim PERFECT KNOWLEDGE of Him in an online web forum? Not in a Billion years!!!

 

I'm not perfect, FreeT. I never will be, at least not in my present state of being. That's the difference between us. I will readily admit that I have many faults, and that I have been and will continue to be wrong about many things during the course of my life. I have undoubtedly misunderstood things about God, because I can't have that PERFECT KNOWLEDGE that you undoubtedly have. I don't know many things. I don't know if the church I attend is 100% correct in all of their teachings. But still I attend. I don't know if the arguments for and against the Majority Texts are strong enough to validate my preference of the KJV of the Bible. But still I read it. I believe that the Bible is the inspired Word of God.

 

Could I be wrong about all of it? We could all be wrong about part or ALL of this, couldn't we? I mean, even YOU admitted that the Rapture would get your attention. Well, I don't know what could make me stop believing that God exists, but you do know something that might make you change your mind. I guess you're the better person, for knowing the limitations of your beliefs, huh? But Pe

[GAHD]

Personally I see ole Jebus as some man who discovered mind-altering drugs(annoited with oil; oil can be used to extract active chemicals from Marijuanna, cacti, opiates, etc... and then cause it to pass through the skin into the blood stream), Got in severe problems with the dominant political figures(Rabbai are sneaky little....) and then his brother or some follower got snagged by them( thinking it was ole J), floogged beyond his allready twisted sences(probably thought the whole thing was some weird trip). Then when they bury the follower, who the resident Judge of the time refused to identify(washed his hands of it because he couldn't say they did wrong and couldn't lie at the same time), then Jebus comes back from his foraging journey with some new stuff to trip-out on and finds one of his fellows dead nd flogged and in a grave. So he checks it out, and after he comes out of the crypt he's got an Idea to screw with thease boys heads and possibly save his oily skin.....