UFO!

[Tim_Lou]

lets carry out a discussion about UFO.

 

what is UFO? what is consider as an UFO?

do they really exist? do you believe in them? why or why not?

 

is it that an alien is driving an UFO to our world? if so, where do they come from? another galaxy? how can they travel to us? if its true that means there are high intelligent organisms like humans exist in the space?

 

whats your opinions?

 

well, i believe that UFO exists, since there are sooooooo many people claim to have seen it.

one or two may be fake, but thousands.....theres got to be something. since the universe is infinite big, there is a possibility that aliens exist.

[Freethinker]

Originally posted by: Tim_Lou

lets carry out a discussion about UFO.

 

what is UFO? what is consider as an UFO?

A UFO is an Unidentified Flying Object.

do they really exist? do you believe in them? why or why not?

As such, yes any object that is flying, that has not yet been identified, is a UFO. Do ojects exist that are flying and not immediately identified? Sure. But they stop being UFO's once they ARE identified.

 

is it that an alien is driving an UFO to our world? if so, where do they come from? another galaxy? how can they travel to us? if its true that means there are high intelligent organisms like humans exist in the space?

 

Now the discussion changes. Once more we get into the discussion of PROOF, rather than CLAIMS or EXPLANATIONS.

 

Many things that have very simple natural explanations are often presented as UFO's. Stars, swamp gas, ball lightning, headlights reflecting off of low clouds, ... there are MANY things that cause people to claim they see something they swear are "flying saucers" from outerspace.

 

whats your opinions?

Extraordinary claims require Extraordinary proof. Nothing new there.

well, i believe that UFO exists, since there are sooooooo many people claim to have seen it.

 

one or two may be fake, but thousands.....theres got to be something.

 

This is just another argument fallacy. Argumentum ad numerum - consists of asserting that the more people who support or believe a proposition, the more likely it is that that proposition is correct. Thousands, in fact MILLIONS, used to be absolutely convinced that the earth was flat. They made all kinds of claims to personal experience confirming it. How many people believe something has nothing to do with whether it IS true or not.

 

since the universe is infinite big, there is a possibility that aliens exist.

 

OK, that "makes sense". But to then propose, that since the chance of another intellegent species exists somewhere in the universe is all but certain, that we would be the intentional target of some other intellegence, that the odds of our small planet, in a at best average solar system, in an outer arm of a massive galaxy, would be THE spot in the entire universe that large numbers of aliens would intentionally visit... well... does that sound rational in ANY WAY?

 

Further that an advanced species would have nothing better to do than to sneak up on people (typically inconsequential, less educated people) and cram things up various openings.

 

Then there are the reports we get from "recovered memory". Some therapist helps a sufferer regress in time to "discover" their hidden memory of abduction. Much of this happened during the same time that another group of therapists were helping "sufferers regress in time to "discover" their hidden memory of" sexual abuse. Hundreds of each. Interestingly, there is not a single case of a UFO investigator EVER finding a sexual abuse victem, nor conversely a sexual abuse therapist finding a UFO abductee. NOT ONE! Statistically this is absurd. The ONLY assertion one can derive from this fact is that the process ALWAYS finds what it is looking for. Leaving little validity to the process.

 

I can not claim to have investigated EVERY UFO claim. But EVERY claim I have checked into falls apart when it is examined critically. And there is not a single claim that has been shown to be supported by FACTUAL evidence.

 

I hope this stuff is starting to get thru to you Tim. I hope you are starting to see why these things are so bogus. I hope you are stating to grasp what IS and what is NOT valid proof. I suggest you read

 

Logic & Fallacies

http://www.infidels.org/news/atheism/logic.html

 

Learning to make a first cut of

[Tim_Lou]

freethinker, thx for replying.

[Freethinker]

Seriously Tim, have you gained anything from our discussions? Have you identified areas where you might benefit from a deeper understanding of Critical Thought Processes and rational thinking?

[Tim_Lou]

....just came back home and i now have time for this discussion.

 

yes, i am learning many things in this forums in a various ways... thats y im staying here and spend some of my gaming time for viewing these articles which not many people are really intrested.

 

"Many things that have very simple natural explanations are often presented as UFO's. Stars, swamp gas, ball lightning, headlights reflecting off of low clouds, ... there are MANY things that cause people to claim they see something they swear are "flying saucers" from outerspace."

 

well, but if these stuffs successfully explain everything about UFO, y is there a huge amount of people believing in it? i know that some scientists are trying hard to prove it as well as the people trying to deny it.

 

"Thousands, in fact MILLIONS, used to be absolutely convinced that the earth was flat. They made all kinds of claims to personal experience confirming it. How many people believe something has nothing to do with whether it IS true or not."

 

well, have you ever got around the world? have you ever went to the outer space to see if the earth is rounded? this 21th century would be another period in the history just like in the past when people think the earth is flat. (may be the earth is really a twisted shape, dimensions are twisted so we see it as round....i dont know.)

 

also, whats motivating millions of people to make fake videos and pictures? do i get a hundred bucks for bringing a UFO video to the internet? what do you think that make SOOOO many people to waste their time to make "fake" videos and photoes for just a little bit of show up and getting no real benefits? imagine you were they, why would you spend this much time to make a fake video or pictures on UFO? these take at least an hour to make it looks real i bet. y not spend some time on this forums? also, UFO is spread SO wildly, in China, in Korean, in America, in Europe...i bet no one can really unified all those people to make fake but similar UFOs.

 

yes, your right, UFO "doesnt exist" yet, there hasnt been a real proof. but there are questionable facts that exists, they should not be ignore and seen as a stupid idea. And this is the reason y we should discuss about these facts to see if they tend to be more right or wrong...

 

proofs are important, i agree, i ask proofs in math class all the time... (but sometimes people just say "the book says so", it blows me off...) but, when i think about proofs, what are the proofs based on? whats the thing that proofs are based on base on?.....ultimately, no proofs are really supporting these facts...

 

hypotheseis always comes b4 theory, so, something without proofs is as important as something w/ proofs.

 

also, im not crazy about UFOs, people being abducted are totally unreal. but there are way too many cases that people can deny, way too many photoes and videos are involve with these. there must be a reason behind, it may be either a guy who spends billions of $ on making fake UFOs, or it is really something unknown...

[Tormod]

Originally posted by: Tim_Lou

yes, i am learning many things in this forums in a various ways... thats y im staying here and spend some of my gaming time for viewing these articles which not many people are really intrested.

 

Thanks for that, Tim!

 

 

Freethinker:

"Thousands, in fact MILLIONS, used to be absolutely convinced that the earth was flat. They made all kinds of claims to personal experience confirming it. How many people believe something has nothing to do with whether it IS true or not."

 

Tim:

well, have you ever got around the world? have you ever went to the outer space to see if the earth is rounded? this 21th century would be another period in the history just like in the past when people think the earth is flat. (may be the earth is really a twisted shape, dimensions are twisted so we see it as round....i dont know.)

 

You don't need to go into out space to confirm that the Earth is round, Tim. The Greeks confirmed this more than two thousand years ago.

 

The first person to (officially) sail around the world was Ferdinand Magellan between 1519-1592.

 

Today we have thousands of satellites buzzing around the Earth taking all kinds of measurements and photos.

 

Tim:

 

well, i believe that UFO exists, since there are sooooooo many people claim to have seen it.

one or two may be fake, but thousands.....theres got to be something. since the universe is infinite big, there is a possibility that aliens exist.

 

Billions of people se the sun get up in the east and set in the west, every single day. Does that mean it orbits the Earth? Yet people thought that, too.

 

Just because lots of people see things, doesn't make it a fact.

 

I agree that there is a possibility that aliens exist (hell, I am quite sure they do) but UFO theories are not about probablilties - it is about believing that someone is covering up the "Truth" that these beings from outer space want to "teach" us. Which, frankly, is highly unlikely.

 

And, for the record, we don't know whether the universe is infinite or not. There are theories about both, but so far I think there are many camps (infinite, fininte part of infinite whole, finite, fininte in volume but infinite in time, ect etc).

 

Tormod

[Tim_Lou]

alright, alright...

 

im not saying that UFO really exists.

what i mean is that we should really put some attention on it.

 

lets carry out some discussion here.

 

UFO is always seen as a disk shape, is there a special reason? or is it just b/c that a dish shape is easy to make (fake UFO)?

 

many UFOs involve in special lights, y is that? maybe reflection of sunlight?

 

do you think that the american government is hiding something? nasa will probably know something about it.

 

here is a website you might be interested in: website about UFOhttp://www.qtm.net/~geibdan/mainpix.html

[Freethinker]

Originally posted by: Tim_Lou

alright, alright...

 

im not saying that UFO really exists.

 

what i mean is that we should really put some attention on it.

There is a lot of attention being put to it. That is part of the point. UFO believers want to pretned that there is proof, but it is either being ignored or there is an intentional effort to not find it. They adopted the 2nd part because no matter how much effort is ever put into researching it, NOTHING is EVER found. So rather than admit the growing LACK of data, the FAILURE of research efforts, they create a myth that research is NOT being done.

 

One thing that is ignored in many discussions about scientific knowledge, is what drives efforts in research. Sure there is the drive of the individual researcher. Something they personally are interested in. But they have to be funded. Most research going on is either high end theoretical in a very limited number of Universities. The vast majority is corporate funded. Even in most Universitites, they use corporate funding and are targetted towards areas of research that the corporate world finds of value.

 

Think of how much funding would flow in to any scientist that could provide factual proof of an actual extraterresteral visit. Just in TV shows. Books, speaking fees, sponsorship. Think of how much funding the space program/ NASA would get if they could prove an extraterrestrial entity. Look at how much they got just by suggesting that Mars might have actually had life at one time! Our space program is based on funding from interest in "outerspace". Of course they are looking for UFO's.

lets carry out some discussion here.

Tim, that is so much better of an approach then when someone just makes claims that somethig does exist and then the discussion is merely trying to get proof from them.

 

An open inquiry dialog can be quite interesting.

UFO is always seen as a disk shape, is there a special reason? or is it just b/c that a dish shape is easy to make (fake UFO)?

There have been a number of shapes, with cigar shaped being very popular for a period of time. It shows how the shape is often connected to societal interests of the time. Plus one of the early movie fakes was made using saucers and thus it's shape stuck in the mind. Add to this that many light effects such as reflections over the horizon from lensing would be elongated/ saucer shaped.

 

many UFOs involve in special lights, y is that? maybe reflection of sunlight?

Our vision is worse at night. And all kinds of light effects occur at sunrise and more so sunset. An object in the sky can be illuminated by the sun while it is below the horizon. So yes, light is often a major element of UFO sightings. In fact many UFOs are merely light. Relections, illuminations, phosphorescence, ...

do you think that the american government is hiding something? nasa will probably know something about it.

I do not suspect NASA in any way. It is way too small and underfunded to be a bastion of secret intell. Doe shte American Gov hide things! Is the pope catholic? But there is little logic behind most accusations specifically relating to UFOs.

[Tim_Lou]

has anyone one heard of "rods" or something like that? (something like "flying stick")

 

i saw a video on it. it says that it is a unkown creature with super fast speed. it lives in some wild places... lots of pictures and videos are taken.

 

i remember it says that these "creatures" are found in a movie! forgot the name, it was found in a part of that movie in slow motion. these creatures are so fast that even in video, it is like a flash, but when people play it in super slow motion, its image appears very unclearly...

 

and i fail to find that website, sry about this...i'll keep searching anyway...

[Tim_Lou]

]http://www.geocities.com/croctwotm/rods.htm

here is a chinese website with some pictures.

 

 

 

found it: the website about rods:

http://www.roswellrods.com/pre.html

 

take a look at this video trial about rods:

http://www.tracieaustin.com/viewspecificpastshow.asp?ID=27

(i saw the whole video above, i remembered...)

 

 

 

 

here is a website that claims to explain everything about rods, take a look on the other side:

http://www.xenophilia.com/zb/zb0001.htm#7

[Freethinker]

Originally posted by: Tim_Lou

has anyone one heard of "rods" or something like that? (something like "flying stick")

 

i saw a video on it. it says that it is a unkown creature with super fast speed. it lives in some wild places... lots of pictures and videos are taken.

 

You really like this stuff don't you Tim? Let's face it, these kind of things are exciting, especially to people that have no other excitment in their lives. UFO's ESP, Big Foot, remote viewing, angels, dead peoplpe walking around, rabbits that lay color checken eggs, magic areas that swallow planes and boats, water that runs up hill. ...

 

Then you get some ******* that comes along and wants to ruin all the fun. That doesn't just accept all these stories. That wants to evaluate such things as facts and evidence before jumping to conclusions. Trouble maker, spoil sport.

 

Yet there is plenty of proof out there. All kinds of books to prove all kinds of things. The magic power of the pyramid shape, how it keeps food fresh and sharpens razor blades. How certain minerals have special powers when you place them in special places on or around your body.

 

i remember it says that these "creatures" are found in a movie! forgot the name, it was found in a part of that movie in slow motion. these creatures are so fast that even in video, it is like a flash, but when people play it in super slow motion, its image appears very unclearly...

 

I went to your web sites. I viewed the videos and read the reports. Can I state that this is a;; bpgus? Nope, never heard of it before and have no factual stance on it. I do know that the info from the sites is far from convincing. It mainly shows how little these people know about how video equipment works for one thing. They also show how much people will get behind something when it makes no sense and has no real support for it.

 

Do we really think there are creatures that fly faster than the human eye can EVER see? That violate numerous laws of physics and biology? And these things have obviously existed for a long long time and only ONE has ever been captured, even if only for seconds? That there is not a single dead body left behind anywhere ever, but enough of them exists that there are all kinds of picts of them, if we just look at the picts special ways?

 

roswellrods.com If that doesn't give it away, I don't know what would. I mean Roswell? Talk about bogus hocus pocus ...

 

"At first he thought they were insects flying close to the video camera. After a number of tests he found out they were not insects."

 

But where are the tests? I did not see anything on the site that would past as a TEST.

 

"...Bush or Clinton... They are the ones that are keeping the UFO phenomenon under a tight lid, keeping you in the fog as they say. "

 

And if you follow the links on this site, you find that even if rods are real, this guy is in bad need of repeaping finacicial success from them. You'll buy his tapes, books, seminars, fund his cable TV network ... I would even wonder how much this guy believes his own stuff. Or des he realize that there IS a market out there for this stuff. And the market is fairly uncritical in their acceptance. Some percentage of the world pop is just going to buy into it and he can make some money off of it.

 

And he does have 20 years of experience in video production. easy to make a dvd to sell.

[Freethinker]

Originally posted by: Tim_Lou

has anyone one heard of "rods" or something like that? (something like "flying stick")

 

i saw a video on it. it says that it is a unkown creature with super fast speed. it lives in some wild places... lots of pictures and videos are taken.

 

http://www.tracieaustin.com/viewspecificpastshow.asp?ID=27

 

Now this is a real operation here! This is what is known as a Public Access show. Local cable systems are usually required in the contract they have with the local city, to provide equipment and channels for local people to produce their own TV shows. Hardware and training is provided free of charge to any local resident that asks. It is something the Cable system providers offer as an incentive to allow the local monopoly that Cable TV is. I have been the Pres of a local Cable System's LA operation. Acting as the official rep to the local city gov. I also have designed and supplied a number of Cable systems Public Access facilities. I was involved with some early Cable Network programing, such as a program that has some National attention, on PBS I think now, called "Sewing With Nancy".

 

All this to explain why I would know what kind of people do these shows. It is where the informercial comes from. Pick a particular subject catagory and get some people to pay you to do a segment for them. Maybe it's sewing, maybe it's painting, maybe it paranormal activites. You get access to some moderately good production equipment and an automatice audiance in the local cable reach. Then you are free to market the productions outside it.

 

"Let's Talk...Paranormal was created in late 2002,and to date has produced 26 shows. I decided to produce and host the show because of my own interest and experiences with the subject since 1987.

 

The show can be seen in Santa Clarita Valley, CA, on Mondays at 10pm channel 20, and a repeated show on Wednesdays at 5pm."

 

I checked and indeed channel 20 is the Public Access channel. Roughly one every two months. They are also hoping some sensationaism will break out of the lower levels of society and hit the mainstream. Look at what it did for Art Bell. (Or Rush Limbaugh). These peolpe will bargin and horse trade anything they can get close to. Sets, clothes, hardware, transportation,.... More power to them I guess?

 

They just are not CREDIBLE sources. IF this is the best we can come up with for these completely fantastic creatures, I have to hold any acceptance at all till some CREDIBLE source gives me reason to.

 

Back to that discussion on funding of science. Can you imagine how much funding someone could get if they actually discovered some incredible unknown creature livng here with us? Why would any research scientists in his or her right mind turn down something they though had potential credibility. And what logical reason could they give for wanting to hide it. Where is the gain to anyone in doing that?

[Freethinker]

Originally posted by: Tim_Louhere is a website that claims to explain everything about rods, take a look on the other side:

http://www.xenophilia.com/zb/zb0001.htm#7

 

This was an interesting site. I thought at first they were trying to build support for the rods thing. But it didn't really seem in either direction in some places.

 

Then while wondering around the site, I found this statement:

 

"The intent of the Reasonable Person's Guide to Strange Ideas is to promote science and critical thinking on an Internet full of nutty fringe ideas. See our RODS article regarding another Art Bell guest. Now, just for fun, stretch your imagination ... around the HOLLOW EARTH."

 

http://www.xenophilia.com/zb/zb0008.htm

 

Now Tim, what do YOU think of this rods thing?

[Tim_Lou]

well, i dont really have an opinion... but...

 

anyway, it is interest to see both sides of a fact. i saw the whole video as i said before. it says that professionals exam it and find that the "creatures" are moving so fast, and having a abnormal size from bugs. also, i cannot be a bird due to the way it flies and the speed of it... however, as everyone knows, videos can be made up easily... but freethinker bought up a good point, is that he is making money out of it. if he is truely going for a new discovery, he should bring all the videos to the internet and let people exam it closely.

another point is that, like 3 years after i saw the video, all the pictures and videos ARE THE SAME!!! nothing is new! this freaks me out...

 

anyway, my point is to see you guys' opinions of it.

the point of bring up rods is that rods are also a type of "UFOs".

well, this topic is open to all sort of things about ufos, anyone has something else to say?

[Tim_Lou]

let me bought up something else, have you guys ever heard of like huge marks on farms and fields? (crop circles i guess)

 

they are made of bent grass or stuffs on the ground, extreme geometric and organized pictures are made. some new geometry theories are created out of them

 

 

2 ppl claim to have made these huge "marks" and it is wildly accepted.

but there are ove thousands of them around the world! every day, lots of new marks are creates all around the world everyday! how is it possible for 2 people to go around the world? or organize a huge international group to creates these marks?

 

i will do some little research on this....im not so sure about my informations provided above.

[Freethinker]

Originally posted by: Tim_Lou

well, i dont really have an opinion... but...

 

Awe come on Tim. Step up to the plate. State your opinion and give us a little explanation as to why.

 

anyway, it is interest to see both sides of a fact.

 

What we are trying to determine is whether this IS a fact or not. We are not seeing two sides of a fact. We are seeing to approaches at determining fact.

 

One side is some old very limited images from what I can tell, from one source. They claim other sources, but you can not find them anywhere. And as you said, they have done nothing in the years since you first looked into it. He's got his fottage in the can, the show and dvd are made. He's not in it for research, he's in it to sell dvd's.

 

The other side is taking a logical scientific look at it. What data do they have to support their claims. Does it seem credible? (NO!) Are the sources verifyable and credible? (NO again) is there ANY lab type (or even serious field) research for it? (NO once more) Is there ONE SINGLE CREDIBLE INDEPENDANT WITNESS (NOPE!)?

 

What more do you need to help you have an opinion?

 

i saw the whole video as i said before. it says that professionals exam it

 

Ah yes, them ever so over used professionals. What are their names? What are there credentials? Or do we find it is just a claim made with no facts provided behind it?

 

and find that the "creatures"

We don;t know that they exist

are moving so fast, and having a abnormal size from bugs.

we can not know what size and therefore what speed. No parrallax view. Only assumptions of what it might be based on very poor source materials.

 

anyway, my point is to see you guys' opinions of it.

then it is only fair that you give us yours.

[Freethinker]

Originally posted by: Tim_Lou

let me bought up something else, have you guys ever heard of like huge marks on farms and fields? (crop circles i guess)

 

2 ppl claim to have made these huge "marks" and it is wildly accepted.

Not only claim, but actually showed how they did it and provided details to prove it was them. And then yes, once the technique was out, lots of copy cats.

 

But let's go past the pretty pictures and neat movie scripts.

 

Have you given any thought as to why some advanced civilization, and let's face it if they got here they are VERY advanced, would want to push our crops over in pretty patterns?

 

Obviously it would not be visible from very far away. It sure woud not act as a signaling system. There is no energy based transmission system (radio/ TV/...) that uses wheat or corn.

 

If they wanted to come and go unnoticed, as the UFOers like to claim, why make such obvious indicators? Foolish idea.

 

What is left> What possible value would they serve?

 

And we don't need "aliens work in mysterious ways" here! :-)