Suicide: Yay or nay?

[Boerseun]

Had an interesting chat with a friend today, who's father was on a live-support machine for a couple of months before they decided to 'pull the plug'. And, in discussing the story, he came up with a question to which I had no answer. So - here I ask of you guys to chuck in your opinions:

 

Individuals who get to the point of suicide, botch their attempts in close to 80-90% of the time. They shoot miss, don't actually overdose, don't jump from a high enough ledge etc. And in plenty of these cases they actually harm themselves permanently or become a permanent worry to their families and friends.

 

So shouldn't there be a failsafe 'suicide kit' available, say a cyanide capsule at drugstores, or something similar? So that if you want to off yourself, you can do it and get it over with? Go out gracefully and save your family, friends, and society at large the trouble of having to look after a vegetable for the next forty-odd years?

 

Forget about the whole Jack Kevorkian argument, I'm not talking about 'assisted suicide'. I'm just saying that what my mate said, if somebody wants to off himself, maybe we shouldn't stop them? Just make it a bit more graceful, 'cause if they wanna do it, they will, eventually. In some messy, nasty way that'll traumatise everybody around them.

 

Any ideas?

[Kizzi]

In 'CONTACT' Ellie Arrowway was given a capsule to take with her on her journey and was told all astronauts are given the capsule to take on their journey to space for the unforseen eventuality for which it is needed.

 

What about soldiers like the SAS? Are they given capsules when the go on missions?

 

KiZzI :eek:

[GAHD]

Futurama-esque suicide booth?

Shure, as long as there's plumbing to get rid of the meatsack.

[Chacmool]

Individuals who get to the point of suicide, botch their attempts in close to 80-90% of the time. They shoot miss, don't actually overdose, don't jump from a high enough ledge etc. And in plenty of these cases they actually harm themselves permanently or become a permanent worry to their families and friends.

 

So shouldn't there be a failsafe 'suicide kit' available, say a cyanide capsule at drugstores, or something similar? So that if you want to off yourself, you can do it and get it over with? Go out gracefully and save your family, friends, and society at large the trouble of having to look after a vegetable for the next forty-odd years?

No. If efficient suicide were that easy, I wouldn't be here right now. As simple as that.

 

Having survived less lethal methods, I'm still not a vegetable, and also not a burden on my family and friends. I'm a fully functional member of society, despite my suicidal tendencies - I certainly don't need any encouragement to commit suicide.

 

I'm just saying that what my mate said, if somebody wants to off himself, maybe we shouldn't stop them? Just make it a bit more graceful, 'cause if they wanna do it, they will, eventually. In some messy, nasty way that'll traumatise everybody around them.

Rather try and help people before they get to that point. It's astonishing how little is done to promote mental health.

[goku]

No. If efficient suicide were that easy, I wouldn't be here right now. As simple as that.

 

Having survived less lethal methods, I'm still not a vegetable, and also not a burden on my family and friends. I'm a fully functional member of society, despite my suicidal tendencies - I certainly don't need any encouragement to commit suicide.

were you seeking death or attention?

[Chacmool]

were you seeking death or attention?

There are more effective and less risky ways of getting attention.

[Tormod]

were you seeking death or attention?

 

That was a rather tactless question. I suggest you use the Private Messaging for these things.

[CraigD]

So shouldn't there be a failsafe 'suicide kit' available, say a cyanide capsule at drugstores, or something similar? So that if you want to off yourself, you can do it and get it over with?

The high failure rate of suicides using fairly reliable means, such as guns, leads me to suspect that the majority of suicide are so ambivalent about ending their own life would be as to be likely to fail, or balk, using even a “failsafe” kit, as with anything else.

 

I’d propose the near exact opposite: Pharmacies should sell “suicide kits” that claim to be sure and failsafe, but are actually designed to cause a disabling but not permanently injurious condition sure to result in the victim being hospitalized. Medical staff should be universally educated to immediately recognize when this has occurred, and refer the victim for psychiatric counseling and treatment. Public and private healthcare should make redoubled efforts to increase the availability and effectiveness of this therapy.

 

The minority of people who are so committed to ending their own lives that they are in the 10-20% of successful suicides, will manage to do so regardless of how hard or easy it is made. Society’s efforts should be concentrated on helping the 80-90% of suicides who are effectively undecided.

 

People in hospice setting should, in my opinion, have access to the same legal, clinician-administered euthanasia currently available to pet dogs and cats. However, strong judicial oversights, including a well-documented court-managed process that requires the approval of at least 2 physicians who do no know one another, mandatory advanced public notice, and most importantly the explicit, uncoerced consent of the patient, should be absolutely required.

[goku]

chacmool, if i affend just let me know.

i can remember as a kid, 6 or 7 yrs. old, being so mad at my brother that i'd think about suicide or running away. i never done anything, but i was mad.

as for the cynide pills, too dangerous. what if the wrong person got a hold of them? :confused:

[Merek]

craig, what you pruposed is unethical, if it says what it is on the kit thats what it should be, not some trap. i figure its up to yourself if you want to die, but i think it should be harder to acces then some pharmacy, say just like some place where u have to sign papers, and contracts n what not. cuz they could get into the wrong hands like some other dude said. :confused:

[rockytriton]

I want a death by misadventure,

face down in some dude's pool.

Not gonna kick it in my sleep biting on my dentures,

When I die, Jack, it's gonna be real cool.

 

Not gonna die from drugs, don't wanna go insane,

Like that Pink Floyd guy, Syd.

I wanna be on a bus that crashes into a train,

Just like Ozzy Osbourne did.

[CraigD]

craig, what you pruposed is unethical, if it says what it is on the kit thats what it should be, not some trap. …

Merek, you’re correct – purposefully labeling a drug in the way I proposed clearly violates not only professional ethics, but US federal and state regulations, even if it could actually save lives and promote public mental health.

 

Selling a “suicide kit” also violates the most important principle of medical ethics, the Hippocratic admonition to “do no harm”, as well as federal and state regulations.

 

Neither proposal is likely, IMHO, to be accepted, especially my “fake suicide kit” proposal. In truth, I made it more to play devils advocate to Boerseun more reasonable proposal, than in any hope that would ever be adopted.

[Boerseun]

My point is just that if somebody really wants to commit suicide, they will. Ignoring that fact will cause institutions to be clogged up with the results of botched attempts, and people suffering permanent brain damage, etc.

 

I'm not sure which side I'll support if it came down to a vote (for argument's sake), I'm feeling very ambivalent towards the whole thing. But if somebody really isn't enjoying living, because of what reason would we stop them, or at least make it possible for them to punch out gracefully?

 

Government would lose a taxpayer, or end up spending a lot of tax money on medical treatment if the attempt was a failure.

We would feel better about ourselves if we prevented someone from committing suicide - but was it to our benefit, or to theirs? Are we trying to prevent suicide because we feel we've got the moral high ground, or because we actually care about the individual?

 

I honestly don't know.

 

If we want to preserve our moral high ground and prevent it, it's a selfish act, and would blow your morality right out of the water.

[WildRose1010]

All this talk about morals, but what usually leads people to suicide in the first place? Pain from outside sources, etc. As one who has attempted (and obviously failed), I personally think a way to take life gracefully would be much easier. I would hate to be the one who had to clean up after a suicide, very messy. The pill idea would make it much neater and wouldn't hurt the families as much to see the body looking peaceful and sleeping than bloody and multilated. Besides, isn't one's life the one thing that truly belongs to noone else but yourself?

[nkt]

The UK has banned the sale of paracetamol in packets above 16, due to the number of people trying to kill themselves with it, and failing, but then being left with no kidney function, and the NHS being left with a huge bill for dialysis for the next 40 years.

 

Harold Shipman, a GP (MD) killed over 400 people by assisting them to kill themselves rather than linger on. Only snag is, he didn't even ask them first. He is the UK's most prolific serial killer by a mile.

 

A "suicide booth" could so easily be abused. Hack it and push someone inside, and there's not even any evidence...

[Celeste]

Originally Posted by Boerseun

I'm just saying that what my mate said, if somebody wants to off himself, maybe we shouldn't stop them? Just make it a bit more graceful, 'cause if they wanna do it, they will, eventually. In some messy, nasty way that'll traumatise everybody around them.

 

As a mother of someone that attempted and failed several times, and a granddaughter of a women that was ultimately "assisted", this subject touches my very soul on both ends of the gamut.

Not a day goes by that I'm not thankful that my daughter is still around despite the 3 years of hell I went thru with her, but I'm also thankful that my grandma didn't have to suffer for another day longer.

 

I think the real answer lies in each and every circumstance.

 

For instance #1; My daughter was repeatedly molested at age 5 by a babysitter and was sequentially diagnosed with acute clinical depression and PTSD at age 13 after beginning self-mutilation (SIB). Within months came the first attempt. It was followed by 2 years of intensive therapy, failed medications, another attempt which landed her in the ICU, and eventually, recovery. She went on to become the head advocate for THT (teens helping teens) in high school and at 21, is extremely successful and a mother herself.

 

Does she still have "bad" times? You betcha'.

What did it cost me? My marriage, thousands of dollars, sleepless months, an addiction to tranquillizers, my faith.

What did I gain? My daughter, my granddaughter, my best friend, my sanity, my life.

Is she thankful that she is still here? Everyday.

Was the hell we/she went through worth it? Every moment.

Would I now advocate easy access to "suicide packages" to people like my daughter?

Not on your life or theirs.

 

Instance #2; My grandmother was diagnosed with terminal bone cancer. For 2 years we watched her waste away in agony as the cancer spread through her body.

In the final month, her skin was literally rotting off her body and she was struggling to breath. With hospice assisting and the family gathered at her bed side, she was given a very large dose of morphine. Within a very short time, she eventually quit breathing altogether.

 

Does she still have "bad" times? No.

What did it cost me? The questioning of my very own morality/humanity and selfishness.

What did I gain? Peace and a deeper understanding of compassion towards human suffering.

Would she be thankful to still be here? With all her suffering, NO WAY.

Was the hell we/she went through worth it? Not a moment.

Would I now advocate easy access to "suicide packages" to people like my grandmother?

Emphatically.

[IrishEyes]

Very emotianlly charged first major post, Celeste. Thanks for sharing. That took some guts.

However, I think that the situations that you shared are very different, for obvious reasons. I don't think that this is an instance where you have to look at each case on an individual basis. I think that it's either right, or it's wrong. It either should be allowed, or it shouldn't.

 

Can you imagine having to apply to be allowed to commit suicide cleanly? That's what I think of when I read through this thread. That seems like the next step, after too many kids start using the 'suicide kits' because of a failed teen relationship, or a bad hair day (yes, I'm oversimplifying on purpose). Wouldn't it be great if you could just go to your closest mental health professional, give him your reasons for no longer wanting to live, and fill out a form to receive a lethal injection or capsule? (again, sarcasm here) Whhhhhaaaaaaat? I see all of these horrible things happening that have nothing to do with people wanting to kill themselves. Like a wife who buys a kit and doses up her abusive husband. Anyhow, way too many liabilities for something like that, IMO.

 

But again, great first big post. I hope to read more from you in the future! :confused: