Suicide: Yay or nay?

[bartock]

Individuals who get to the point of suicide, botch their attempts in close to 80-90% of the time. They shoot miss, don't actually overdose, don't jump from a high enough ledge etc. And in plenty of these cases they actually harm themselves permanently or become a permanent worry to their families and friends.

i guess these people are having a hard time getting over their instinct of self-preservation.

but those who do commit sucide succeed in going against this instinct. :confused:

 

So shouldn't there be a failsafe 'suicide kit' available, say a cyanide capsule at drugstores, or something similar? So that if you want to off yourself, you can do it and get it over with?

i dont know..... allowing some one deear to you die so easily is like telling him 'he is not good enough for us'.

Go out gracefully and save your family, friends, and society at large the trouble of having to look after a vegetable for the next forty-odd years?

if a person is brain dead ;should let him go.

 

Forget about the whole Jack Kevorkian argument, I'm not talking about 'assisted suicide'. I'm just saying that what my mate said, if somebody wants to off himself, maybe we shouldn't stop them? Just make it a bit more graceful, 'cause if they wanna do it, they will, eventually. In some messy, nasty way that'll traumatise everybody around them.

 

Any ideas?

should make the world a better place where people know that they are worth somthing, they are loved, they are needed, they are respected, they can make a difference.

[bartock]

who decides that a person is in the right frame of mind to decide to end his life.

[pgrmdave]

Nobody who wants to commit suicide should be allowed to make that decision. They are most likely not in a good state of mind, and as such, a meathod of suicide should not be made easily availible. However, I do think that there are some circumstances when suicide should be an option, it should not be an easy option. Perhaps it should be like President Clinton wanted abortions, Safe, Legal, and Rare.

[Jay-qu]

ok, so imagine that we make a legally viable option that takes lots of paper work and a genuine circumstance that is deemed 'worthy' of allowing one-self to commit suicide, then we are right back where we started... someone applies, gets rejected, drives off the closest bridge, somehow survives but now in a coma... the situation wont always be better for those that are granted permission, what about there families?

[Boerseun]

Hi, and welcome, Celeste!

 

Gotta go with Irish on your post, and hope to see more of you around here.

 

Your post serves well to illustrate the difficulty of this discussion, and I should make it clear that I don't support either side - simply 'cause I don't know. That's why I've raised it in the first place.

 

Say, for instance, your grandmother was an individual in her twenties. Technically, a whole life ahead of her. If she's in constant pain, what would the answer then be?

 

If you've got someone suffering, say, a girl, 20 years old, bed-bound by cancer,in constant pain, nobody knows how long she'll live, would a failsafe 'suicide kit' be a moral option, here? Or are we now entering Jack Kevorkian-land? Because if we can allow suicide for medical reasons, why not for psychological reasons? Where do you draw the line?

 

I honestly do not know.

[WildRose1010]

How can someone else decide if you should be able to end your own life? It is the only thing that belongs to only you. You should have complete control over whether or not you wish to live it. Perhaps the kit could only be sold to someone over 18? Or 21? It doesn't matter, if a younger person wants it, they will get it. Yes suicide hurts the family, but perhaps that's just selfishness on the family's part. They don't cry for the life their loved ones will miss, but because they will miss their loved ones.

[IrishEyes]

They don't cry for the life their loved ones will miss, but because they will miss their loved ones.

I don't agree with that. When you lose a child, yes, you miss that child. But a large part of your pain is in knowing that they will not ever live out their lives. It's not just a selfish "I want them back". It's also a "I wish they could experience this too!" That doesn't stop once the child reaches 18 or 21, I'm sure.

 

Suicide is one of the most selfish and pathetic acts a person can commit, in my opinion. I feel perfectly within my right to say that, as I have a few scars on my wrist as well. When most people contemplate suicide, they are looking at their life in the short term. They refuse to see the long term effects of their actions. Are they leaving children to be raised without a parent? Are their financial affairs in order, or are they leaving their family with debt? The questions are endless, but the same conclusion can usually be drawn - it's a selfish thing to do. (By the way, I think a 20 year old that commits suicide is much different than an 80 year old terminally ill person that has a DNR.)

 

I think the question that was asked earlier "Was it for attention or did you really want to die?" was a very viable question, if put a little tacklessly.

[MsShadowDancer]

I believe there should be a system in place for certain situations. There should be a 'cool down' period as well since once someone succeeds there is no changing of the mind. Likewise, if it were as simple as a pill OTC many would die needlessly in a rash moment. Many malevolent people would off themselves just to spear someones heart. I agree with Chacmool and it bears true for many.

 

There should be a way to die in a planned mode when ones physical/mental health is so debilliatating life has no joy. There should be an evaluation period and all facts need to be included. imo

[Jay-qu]

again - if we make it possible but hard then we are back where we started because the crazy ones will just find another way, if they think they want to die a proffesional opinion saying 'no sorry your not allowed to kill yourself' is not going to stop them...

[Boerseun]

again - if we make it possible but hard then we are back where we started because the crazy ones will just find another way, if they think they want to die a proffesional opinion saying 'no sorry your not allowed to kill yourself' is not going to stop them...

Sounds to me like one of them Gordian-knot kinda thingys.:confused:

[Chacmool]

Suicide is one of the most selfish and pathetic acts a person can commit, in my opinion.

I respect your opinion, but I disagree. Suicide is seldom the first option, and I have found that looking for help is often fruitless. Most people just don't care, so why is only the person attempting suicide being called selfish?

 

However, in my experience this is the most common response to a failed suicide attempt. There were amazingly few helping hands and shoulders to cry on.

[WildRose1010]

How can taking what is yours and destroying it be considered selfish? I'll admit, it would cause pain and anguish to those around you, but it is still yours and yours alone. Would it be wrong to give life to a murderer or take life from a child(someone under 18)? Admittedly, it isn't a easy topic to discuss(taboo in our society), but if someone no longer wishes to live the life they are given, why can they not take it?

[Celeste]

Originally Posted by IrishEyes

Very emotianlly charged first major post, Celeste. Thanks for sharing. That took some guts.

However, I think that the situations that you shared are very different, for obvious reasons. I don't think that this is an instance where you have to look at each case on an individual basis. I think that it's either right, or it's wrong. It either should be allowed, or it shouldn't.

 

Thank you IrishEyes. This topic is very near to my heart.

 

Originally Posted by Boerseun

Hi, and welcome, Celeste!

Gotta go with Irish on your post, and hope to see more of you around here.

Your post serves well to illustrate the difficulty of this discussion...

 

Hello to you, and Thank you Boerseun. :confused:

 

Originally Posted by Celeste

I think the real answer lies in each and every circumstance.

 

I apologize, I should have worded this more clearly.

I actually "feel" that all suicides, outside of those with imminent TERMINAL disease, is wrong.

 

However, for those with terminal diseases without any hope of cure, quality of life, nor remission, I believe they should have the right to decide for themselves without interference from state or government.

 

Please don't misunderstand me, I am not dismissing emotional pain or mental disease as something that is easily lived with. I am just trying to point out that with this kind of pain, dis-ease, there is hope. There are many things that can help resolve, or cure if you will, these causes that are behind most suicides.

I also feel that this help should be made available without fear of ridicule, and without personal cost.

 

Originally Posted by Chacmool

I respect your opinion, but I disagree. Suicide is seldom the first option, and I have found that looking for help is often fruitless. Most people just don't care, so why is only the person attempting suicide being called selfish?

 

However, in my experience this is the most common response to a failed suicide attempt. There were amazingly few helping hands and shoulders to cry on

 

I have found that looking for help is often fruitless.

 

This is quite true. It was one of the most infuriating things I ran into with my daughter.

 

Most people just don't care

 

I wholeheartedly disagree. As a parent, I can think of nothing I wouldn't do to help my child. Sad fact is that most kids don't turn to their family, instead, they live on the mistaken thought that their peers will always be there for them and would do anything for them.

All to soon we grow up and realize that for most, family is all we really have in this world and our beloved friends have moved on concentrating on their own family and lives.

 

Some sobering facts:

 

More than 30,000 Americans commit suicide each year

 

Every 100 minutes another teenager will commit suicide.

 

Its estimated that 500,000 teenagers try to kill themselves every year, and about 5000 succeed.

 

For every teenage suicide, there are more than 100 unsuccessful attempts

 

Twenty-seven percent of high school students said they had "thought seriously" about killing themselves during the past year. Eight percent said they had actually tried to kill themselves.

 

Depression will affect more than 19 million Americans this year. Between 15% and 30% of teens with serious depression who think about suicide go on to make a suicide attempt.

 

Only car accidents and homicides kill more people between the ages of 15 and 24, making suicide the third leading cause of death in teens and overall in youths ages 10 to 19 years old.

 

Hypothetical Questions:

 

Why is it that suicide carries such stigma?

Why is it that state and governmental help and funding are readily available for other things such as criminals?

Why would criminals have access to top-notch psychiatrist's at the states expense, yet my daughter did not?

Why aren't there "suicide clubs/classes" taught in every junior high, high school and college?

If these clubs/classes saved just one person per school, wouldn't that be worth it? Who puts the price or lack thereof on human life?

Wouldn't implemeting such classes with obvious parent/peer support/openiness ultimately save lives?

 

:::Sigh::: Sorry for rambling...as I have said, this topic is very near to my heart and touches my very soul.

[CraigD]

Why is it that suicide carries such stigma?

Why is it that state and governmental help and funding are readily available for other things such as criminals?

Why would criminals have access to top-notch psychiatrist's at the states expense, yet my daughter did not?

Why aren't there "suicide clubs/classes" taught in every junior high, high school and college?

If these clubs/classes saved just one person per school, wouldn't that be worth it? Who puts the price or lack thereof on human life?

Wouldn't implemeting such classes with obvious parent/peer support/openiness ultimately save lives?

I’d add to that list of questions:

• Are extensive evaluation, counseling, and psychotherapy as effective in the treatment of depression and prevention of suicide as cursory evaluation, counseling, and drug therapy?

 

As a person suspicious of the business of pharmacology, and sympathetic to cognitive therapeutic approaches, I for many years was skeptical, even disparaging of therapists and patients who’s treatment for depression centered around drugs, almost exclusively SSRIs such as Prozac and Welbutrin. Working in a healthcares setting, where I was directly aware of the economic advantages of medication over therapy, served to increase my suspicion.

 

Now, nearly 18 years after this class of drugs entered into widespread use, I believe dispassionate clinical evidence shows my misgivings to be misplaced. As hard as it is for me to admit it, it appears that hundreds of thousands of people are living reasonably happy and productive lives who would have killed themselves, had the money spent on the treatment depression with drugs been spent instead on traditional therapy, and that these people have not been rendered into zombies or Stepford wives, brain damaged, made stupid, suffered organ failure, gone insane from repression, or any of the other alarming prospects that I and others warned against in the ‘80s and ‘90s.

 

I fear that many people persist in holding the mistaken belief that using drugs to treat depression somehow diminishes a person, or even causes the suicidal feelings they are intended to treat. Recent publicity around wrongful death lawsuits against the manufacturers of SSRIs appear to be fueling a resurgence of these misgivings. I strongly council people with concerns about the safety and efficacy of SSRIs to carefully read the credible (scientific, not popular media) literature on them, especially people who are considered authorities in such maters by friends and family members.

 

I hope that none of the bad advice I gave in the ‘80s and ‘90s lead to anyone’s suicide.

[Turtle]

To be or not to be? This question has stirred emotions as far back as we have records. Following a critical breakdown over a decade ago, I have bounced in & out of mental health care systems continuously. The first misdiagnosis & drug cavalcade went to psychosis, then I think it was manic/depressive, then clinical depression, & now Aspergers. I have taken more drugs than I can remember & I never thought about suicide until I enetered the system, where you don't talk to anyone without them first saying ' are you planning to hurt yourself or someone else?' I know it's all out of lawsuits because someone killed themself & the family sued because the doctors 'should have known'. Still, it comes off as yet another prescription option; "well, you know, you could just kill yourself". My neighboring state of Oregon has an assisted suicide law which allows doctors to prescribe a lethal medicvation to terminally ill patients; counselling is a part of the process of obtaining such a prescription. The Fed's are going after the law & doctors now as I understand it.

___In the case of terminal illness, I think the Oregon scheme is OK. In the case of mental illness, I think we need some way to address it that doesn't make it look like just another prescription.

[Turtle]

___Now that y'all got me thinking about suicide - the topic, not the act - a category we haven't discussed came to mind. Sacrificing one's self, is arguably suicide. Not over grief, anger, depression, disease, or demise, but voluntarily dying for a suposed higher purpose. The rescuer who in the face of certain death rescues; the monk who self emolates in protest; other similar circumstances. :hihi:

[Jay-qu]

even sacrafice has a few forms - whether you are diving onto a grenade that just got thrown into a room full of people, or taking your own life in worship of a cult or god... it is still suicide