Desmanthus illinoensis

[alexander]

Althought the name implies a flower, this is infact the place i wanted to discuss it (as in dont move the thread please, everything will become more clear in a few seconds)

 

First of all, how i know about the flower, one of my friend's relative (young kid, hippie, probably how he found out about the flower) overdosed on something a little while ago, she told me that the parents found out that it was some kind of a flower plant with buds that are small and have what almost looks like spikes. That set me and my firend on an erowid hunt, and i beleive that the plant guy used was Destamantus Illioensis aka bundle flower. Apparently one of the dominating chemicals in the plant is DMT, a very powerful psychoactive (hence some simptoms that the guy had...). This finally brings me to what i want to ask; I know some effects of DMT, I've been reading some recollection of the effects of pure DMT on some people, and what is fascinating is that almost all have similar experiences (all that did similar dosages), 4-5 planes (they start with like geometric shapes of different colors that move and change, etc), and most of the time by 4-5th, they are kidnaped by aliens who tell them the secret of the universe but it is so much that by the time the trip is over noone can remotely remember what it was all about, because of the capacity of the information...

 

Anyhow, first of all what makes DMT so psychoactive? how does it alter our chemical processes to give such profound effect, and why is the effect so very similar for such a large amount of people?

[Biochemist]

First of all, I would like to open the dicussion by emphasizing that hallucinogens are generally very dangerous drugs. Many hallucinogens have permanent effects after a very small number of doses. Lots of young folks in the '60s had their intellectual lives substantially shortened (although their physical lives went on for some time) by the moderate use of LSD, STP and mescaline. The ones that searched for peyote often got the wrong mushrooms and died of other things (like multi-organ failure after several tragically painful weeks in ICU).

 

Please take note of the above.

 

DMT is one of several psychoactive amines that are closely related structurally to serotonin. We would expect that most of the effects would be related to accentuation or blockade of serotoninergic activities, or both. It may be probably true that different serotoninergic brain tracts have different receptors, even though the different receptors respond to the same endogenous chemical, serotonin. It is certainly true that different tracts respond to different degrees when external pharmacological are administered. This is probably one of the reasons that the different antidepressants in the SSRI class (selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors) act differently in different tracts, and result in different symtomatic/therapeutic profiles.

 

It is entirely possible that a particular chemical modification to serotonin may be an agonist in one tract and an antagonist in another. Serotonin is 5 hydroxy tryptamine. DMT is N,N dimethy tryptamine. Bufotenin is 5 hydroxy NN dimethy tryptamine. Both of these drugs mess with serotoninergic pathways. We would generally expect th drugs to act similarly in any human, although humans to respond differently for a long list of complex reasons (variance in gastirc absorbtion, different homeostatic balance of endogenous serotoninergic pathways, potenial variances in the end receptor sites, etc.)

 

Make sure and pay up your life insirance before you experiment with halucinogens.

[UncleAl]

DMT is not orally active (fast hepatic N-demethylation). It must be smoked or injected. DMT effects last for perhaps 15-30 minutes. It is both intense and fairly benign as hallucinogens go. Adding Harmala alkaloids is quite dangerous for their potent MAO-inhibitor action. A glass of red wine could kill you.

 

http://www.erowid.org/plants/d_illinoensis/d_illinoensis.shtml

N,N-DMT in its root bark

http://plants.usda.gov/cgi_bin/topics.cgi?earl=plant_profile.cgi&symbol=DEIL

 

Acacia bark: 0.71% DMT

Mimosa root: 0.57% DMT

Virola shoots & flowers: 0.44% DMT

Desmanthus rootbark: 0.34% DMT

Phalaris: 0.17% DMT, 0.06% 5MeO

[Norman]

Every post on this thread is wrong on so many levels, I hardly know where to begin.

I suppose I should just let it go, but this is supposed to be a science forum and these opinions stated as fact just drive me nuts, especially since I found this thread by merely googling desmanthus illinoensis root bark and I wouldn't want anyone susceptible to come across it and be fooled.

 

"First of all, how i know about the flower, one of my friend's relative (young kid, hippie, probably how he found out about the flower) overdosed on something a little while ago, she told me that the parents found out that it was some kind of a flower plant with buds that are small and have what almost looks like spikes. That set me and my firend on an erowid hunt, and i beleive that the plant guy used was Destamantus Illioensis aka bundle flower"

 

The active compound in desmanthus - DMT - is present in the root bark at around a third of a percent by weight. To get an active oral dose (much less an "overdose" which is unheard of for DMT) the kid would have had to eat at least 100 grams of the bark (that's dried weight, fresh would be four times that) along with an MAOI. Anyone who knows anything at all about psychoactive plants would immediately think of datura based on even that vague description of the "spikey bud". Look that one up if you want to be horrified and tut tut about those damn hippies.

 

"The ones that searched for peyote often got the wrong mushrooms and died of other things" - Um... peyote is a cactus. Having taken note of that, we'll just disregard the rest of this post shall we?

 

"Adding Harmala alkaloids is quite dangerous for their potent MAO-inhibitor action. A glass of red wine could kill you." That's quite dramatic but as MAOI's go, plant harmalas are relatively weak. Care is needed in their use to be sure, but a glass of red wine would give you a headache, not kill you. It's the permanent pharmaceutical MAOI's that are deadly with tyramine.

[Ganoderma]

i too think you have your ID mixed up. if they took the flowers than it probably was a brugsmania, however they would of likely had far more intense experiences if they were. The flowers of Desmanthus sp. and mimosa hsotilis are not active, it is the roots of both.

 

Before there is too much speculation tell us how they did it, where they found it and maybe a picture of teh plant.

[Tormod]

Just some links for the interested:

 

USDA plant profile for Desmanthus illinoensis:

http://plants.usda.gov/java/profile?symbol=DEIL

 

Some images and minor description from Texas A&M:

http://uvalde.tamu.edu/herbarium/deil.htm

[CraigD]

Every post on this thread is wrong on so many levels, I hardly know where to begin.

I suppose I should just let it go, but this is supposed to be a science forum and these opinions stated as fact just drive me nuts, especially since I found this thread by merely googling desmanthus illinoensis root bark and I wouldn't want anyone susceptible to come across it and be fooled.

If you continue searching the site for discussions of the pharmacology of tryptamines from various sources, I believe you’ll find it better balanced than this short thread. In particular, discussion of Terence McKenna’s “Stoned Ape” theory of human evolution resulted in much 7699.

 

As you note, as a class the tryptamines have almost no toxicity, though they pose some physical danger because the “psychedelic trip” that an effective dose of many of them produce can render one profoundly unaware of ones surroundings. In short, despite being a Schedule 1 controlled substance in the US, and having similar legal status in many other countries, drugs in this class are not considered “problem drugs”, by either drug self-experimentation enthusiasts or law enforcement personnel, to the extent that ones such as alcohol and cocaine are.

 

Since this forum encourages contributions by non-specialists in many fields, you’ll find many opinions here, some demonstrably inaccurate. When it comes to self-experimentation, responsible people tend to err on the side of caution. Also, we try to maintain awareness that many impressionable people “skim” information from this site, so try to avoid presenting information that might be misinterpreted as encouraging life or health-threatening activity.

 

Serious researchers are unlikely to be “fooled” by any small collection of posts in a public forum. For casual readers who may be prone to acting on incomplete or inaccurate information, it’s arguable better that they gain an exaggerated sense of the risks of self-experimentation, rather than of its lack of risks.

 

PS: Welcome to hypography, Norman!

[Norman]

Hey, thanks.

I stumbled across that so easily, I just had to say something.

I'll check out those links.

[Michaelangelica]

Just some links for the interested:

 

USDA plant profile for Desmanthus illinoensis:

http://plants.usda.gov/java/profile?symbol=DEIL

 

Some images and minor description from Texas A&M:

http://uvalde.tamu.edu/herbarium/deil.htm

This LOOKS very similar to Sensitive Plant (Mimosa pudica) which is a weed growing in most warm wet parts of Australia

According to Duke this contains

CROCETIN Plant: DUKE1992A

 

CROCETIN-DIMETHYL-ETHER Leaf: DUKE1992A

 

D-GLUCURONIC-ACID Seed: DUKE1992A

 

D-XYLOSE Seed: DUKE1992A

 

MIMOSINE Plant: DUKE1992A

 

MUCILAGE Seed: DUKE1992A

 

NOREPINEPHRINE Plant: DUKE1992A

Interestingly he often does not list psychotopic plants like Desmanthus illinoensis

[Michaelangelica]

i too think you have your ID mixed up. if they took the flowers than it probably was a brugsmania, however they would of likely had far more intense experiences if they were. The flowers of Desmanthus sp. and mimosa hsotilis are not active, it is the roots of both.

 

Before there is too much speculation tell us how they did it, where they found it and maybe a picture of teh plant.

Datura is anumber of plants. rRecently brungmansias (formally datura, were hived off by the botanists). Brungmansias are beautiful sub-semi-tropical plants with exquiste trumpet shaped (and sized) flowers some with a beautiful fragrance.

[Ganoderma]

Yes, it is very different and quite dangerous. but from the description the seed pods of many sp seem more fitting than that of desmanthus. that and desmanthus flowers are not active. M. pudica is not active either, M. hostilis is. It is not the flowers that are active but the root. With daturas, or brugmanias, the flowers are highly active. although i think they would have had a more intense experience had it been one of those.

 

M. pudica is found in much of the world from asia to australia to the americas. if its warm there is a chance it grows there. we are pulling it out of our yard every other month.

[Halfhead]

Anyhow, first of all what makes DMT so psychoactive? how does it alter our chemical processes to give such profound effect, and why is the effect so very similar for such a large amount of people?

 

 

Hello good sir. I think this is a great question. If we could properly, scientifically test DMT's effects on the modern, human brain, would make an amazing change for the future of humanity!

 

I think the fact that our blood/brain barrier accepts the chemicals found in most the plants/fungi found in nature says something important. If we are hardwired to "digest" some of these amazing, earth made compounds, we should, if we are curious! With caution of course!

 

 

I could go on for hours but I'll leave you with this. Respecting the plants and fungi you are using, they are our friends!

[CraigD]

Welcome to hypography, Halfhead! :) Please feel free to start a topic in the introductions forum to tell us something about yourself.

 

Anyhow, first of all what makes DMT so psychoactive? how does it alter our chemical processes to give such profound effect, and why is the effect so very similar for such a large amount of people?

Hello good sir. I think this is a great question. If we could properly, scientifically test DMT's effects on the modern, human brain, would make an amazing change for the future of humanity!

If you follow links from later posts in this thread, you’ll find that the neurochemical mechanism of the whole tryptamine family of which dimethyltryptamine is a family is among the best understood in psychopharmacology. They mimic in diverse ways the effect of serotonin, and important brain and gut neurotransmitter found in all animals, even those without brains. So it’s no mystery why they have similar effects on many people.

 

Increased understanding of the neurology of serotonin, and to a lesser extent, other triptamines, has had a revolutionary impact on pharmacology, though more in the development of serotonin regulators, such as SSRIs, than in the direct ingestion of tryptamines and similar drugs.

 

I think the fact that our blood/brain barrier accepts the chemicals found in most the plants/fungi found in nature says something important.

The generally accepted explanation why so many successful plants produce tryptamines, especially serotonin, is that, because serotonin is stimulates the gut, it causes plant seeds eaten by animals to be excreted more quickly and intact.

 

Explanations of why so many successful plants bear psychotropic tryptamines, and/or substances that aid in their ingestion (eg: several harmala alkaloids in ayahuasca, a key ingredient in traditional psychotropic DMT drinks) are more complicated and controversial. See the these links

If you continue searching the site for discussions of the pharmacology of tryptamines from various sources, I believe you’ll find it better balanced than this short thread. In particular, discussion of Terence McKenna’s “Stoned Ape” theory of human evolution resulted in much 7699.

for some old references and old discussion along these lines.