Abortion: Murder

[Tarantism]

What kind of situation would that be? One that threatened to ruin my social lifestyle?

 

i was more thinking about a situation where bringing a baby into a horrible enviorment instead of getting an abortion would be a bad decision, in my opinion. i think that it must be made clear that im not trying to trod on others beliefs, im jsut trying to provide a different point of view. if faced with that same choice, everyone may do something different, but you should still consider the flipside of the argument.B)

[IrishEyes]

Man if my high school government teacher could read what I'm about to write... B)

 

I was very much in favor of 'choice' in high school. I firmly believed in a woman's right to have control over her own body, regardless of how she came to be pregnant. Like many people, I used rape and incest as the ultimate "but what about"s. I just could not agree with the idea that some man in a suit in Washington DC had the right to tell me what to do with my own body. Geez, I would get inflamed just thinking about that. Honestly, those feelings lasted for a very long time. I can remember coming out of church one Sunday, years ago, and finding political propaganda under our windshield, urging votes for a 'pro-life' candidate. I ripped them up right there in the parking lot, and we never went back to that church.

 

Have I changed? Well, maybe 'matured' would be a better definition. I'm not so easily swayed by the politics of it anymore. The religious aspects aren't even what's made an impact. Honestly, motherhood hasn't been the biggest catalyst either. Can you guess what has? If you guessed 'technology' you would be correct.

 

When I was younger, a baby born at 30 weeks gestation had an incredibly difficult time surviving. I guess part of me just reconciled that in my mind. I mean, I guess I figured that it wasn't really murder if the baby could not survive on its own anyhow. That was the battle cry back then, that the abortees weren't really alive, so it could not be murder. It made sense, and it made me feel better about how I felt, if that makes sense.

Today, babies born at 30, 28, even 26 weeks gestation still have a shot at survival. It is no longer an attempt at reconciling that they are not alive. They have a shot at life, even at that early stage.

Do I approve of abortion before 20 weeks? No, I do not. Do I understand the feeling of total hopelessness and despair that accompanies news of an unplanned pregnancy? Well, I have 6 beautiful children, and they were not all planned, so you do the math... I don't regret having any of my children. I was faced with the choice to have children each time, or to terminate the pregnancy. I chose to have the children. Does that make me better or worse than someone that has had an abortion? Neither. It just means that I made a decision based on my own personal beliefs.

I do not support abortion. I think that it is wrong, and there are so many different alternatives. However, I think it is even more wrong of people to condemn a young woman for making that choice. I do not think abortion should be available to people for convenience. I think that there are cases where an abortion may be the best thing. I have no idea what those reasons might be, as there are so many people in this country that would love to have a child, and yet there are so many abortions performed every single year. It saddens me.

To say that abortion is murder might be true. To say that it is a woman's right to make the choice might also be true. I am caught somewhere in between these two truths.

 

And C1ay, very powerful picture. That is exactly the kind of thing that got through to my youthfully militant head.

[Tarantism]

perhaps, then, we should agree to disagree? opinion is a beautiful thing!B)

[Rincewind]

i think you missed the point.

zygote is just a word, a word created by scientists. the word does not change anything.

before the word zygote there was nothing?

It's all just words, but that's what we're stuck with for communication. It may be worth your while looking up the following words in a dictionary so you can undertand the conceptual differences between them, and the ideas that are being exchanged when using those words.

 

From WordWeb, I find:

 

Zygote: The cell resulting from the union of an ovum and a spermatozoon;

 

Embryo: An animal organism in the early stages of growth and differentiation that in higher forms merge into foetal stages;

 

Fœtus: An unborn or unhatched vertebrate in the later stages of development showing the main recognizable features of the mature animal;

 

Child: A young person of either sex;

 

... but check other dictionaries. It's not just words, it's communication.

[Tarantism]

It's all just words, but that's what we're stuck with for communication. It may be worth your while looking up the following words in a dictionary so you can undertand the conceptual differences between them, and the ideas that are being exchanged when using those words.

 

From WordWeb, I find:

 

Zygote: The cell resulting from the union of an ovum and a spermatozoon;

 

Embryo: An animal organism in the early stages of growth and differentiation that in higher forms merge into foetal stages;

 

Fœtus: An unborn or unhatched vertebrate in the later stages of development showing the main recognizable features of the mature animal;

 

Child: A young person of either sex;

 

... but check other dictionaries. It's not just words, it's communication.

a fetus is not living after all, then?

[jettlarue]

I have heard someone say here that if everyone lived by the Christian Bible everything would be perfect. Well that sucks for them because so far the universe really doesnt care what humans think about. It does what happens. So if someone was to go have sex I doubt the universe would change much. Its kind of hard to argue with anyoe who rants about what they believe because they are curious how stuff works.

[Pyrotex]

my view hasn't changed, but i now see the problem as being bigger than i could have ever imagined.

Let's see here. Abortion = murder, and murder = wrong.

Mind if I step in?

Let's say the first equality above is true. I will grant that for sake of argument. But what is wrong with murder? If the morality of murder is based on the Bible, then I'm afraid murder isn't wrong at all.

 

In Judges, Jehovah several times ordered the Israelites to butcher entire cities, men, women and children. Except virgin girls, who were given to the Israelite generals. Once, the Israelites even decided to show mercy to the conquered survivors, and Jehovah, through his current prophet, condemned the people for their mercy.

 

In Hosea, there is even a verse where Jehovah orders that the unborn in their mothers womb be killed. However, in versions of the King James Bible since the 50's or so, the verse is changed to read that the mothers shall "fall" on their unborn children. Must have disturbed a lot of preachers to have them go and change the Bible like that. Can't blame them, really.

 

So, murder, even the murder of innocent children is not wrong, if you read your Bible. Of course, if you're an atheist, then this argument will make no sense.

[Racoon]

You just like bringing back these kinda' threads eh Pyro? :hihi:

You make good points as usual compadre.

 

The problem with Abortion, is that It deeply divides America, and Politicians use IT to further their elections and adgenda.

 

Instead of Debating POLITICS, like the War, and the Deficit, and Social Security Reform, and Health Care, and Immigration

Everyone squabbles over Abortion come election time???

 

I know plenty of Christians who voted for Bush Only on the issue of Abortion alone! :cool:

 

Wake up and smell the Sodium Pentathol...:) (lil' contraindicated joke there...oooh clever)

 

MOM!! Pyro's looking at me funny again! Make him STOP!

[pgrmdave]

If people feel strongly about any issue, why shouldn't they vote based on it? If a politician had an agenda that you agreed with perfectly, except they felt that [insert crime here] was okay, would you still vote for them?

[pgrmdave]

So, murder, even the murder of innocent children is not wrong, if you read your Bible. Of course, if you're an atheist, then this argument will make no sense.

 

Why do you feel the need to bring religion into this discussion? I think murder is wrong because it, like almost all other crimes, is disrespectful to others (to say the least!). Yes, many religions may condemn certain crimes, and those same religions may advocate those same crimes. Does that make those crimes less criminal? If I murder someone, then tell you not to murder, does that mean that murder is okay? You're trying to say that the idea (murder is wrong) must be false because the source (the bible) must be false, but that's simply not a true analogy - ideas are seperate from their source.

[Racoon]

If a politician had an agenda that you agreed with perfectly, except they felt that [insert crime here] was okay, would you still vote for them?

 

I would consider all the parts. but, yeah probably. If I agreed even less with the other candidate(s)

 

Abortion hasn't anything to do with Running the Country. :hihi:

 

I am more concerned about the Budget Deficit, The War, and Pollution.

 

I don't "like" Abortion. AND my belief (s) shouldn't eliminate Medical Options for other people who may think otherwise.

 

:)

[pgrmdave]

Stop looking at it from only your point of view, and try to put yourself in someone else's shoes. Imagine, if you will, that you feel that abortion isn't just wrong, but that it is murder. That every abortion is the murder of a human being, that is being sanctioned by the state and by the general public. A politician then, who supports abortion in any way, is supporting the murder of innocent humans. If, assuming you were in agreement with that, you were to vote for that politician, you would be voting for someone who would allow murders. Thus, it is not only reasonable, but logical to vote for someone who opposes abortion. That assumes that all other things are equal, of course (if one politician supports abortions and the other is a raving lunitic who wants to nuke the world, abortion is the lesser of the evils).

 

And of course abortion has to do with government - the government writes the laws which make abortions legal or illegal. The government affects far more than just what you or I am concerned with.

[InfiniteNow]

But where do you draw the line? Is selling fast food murder? Cigarettes? These are all santioned. Why one, but not the other?

[Racoon]

But where do you draw the line? Is selling fast food murder? Cigarettes? These are all santioned. Why one, but not the other?

 

Because you can't see it from the other persons point of view IN. :cool:

 

Just like people who consider it murder; can't seem to see it from the other person's point of view.

 

:)

 

A President who lies about going to war, that results in Mass Murder, isn't nearly as bad a President who leaves the Roe v. Wade decision alone.

You know?? That Supreme Court decision...

 

PYRO!!

You have some explaining to do Young Man!!!!! :hihi:

[Pyrotex]

You just like bringing back these kinda' threads? :cool:

You make good points as usual compadre....MOM!! Pyro's looking at me funny again! Make him STOP!

I can't help it if one of me eyes is bigger than the other two.

C'mere, little boy. I won't hurt you.

Heh heh heh heh :hihi: :)

 

Well, whenever I hear a devoutly held belief, political or otherwise, and I see that the belief appears to distract its believers from issues that are more pressing and urgent, my first thought is to look at the very bottom basis of those beliefs.

 

Why are they so strong, and what is purportedly holding them up? In this case, I see that a certain scripture is at the root of these beliefs. Well, in that case go to the scripture:

 

http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/

 

and look to see exactly where and precisely how the scripture supports that strong belief. More often than not, IT DOESN'T!! :hihi: It is not an accident that several philosophers of the 20th Century have called the Bible, the "most unread book in the world".

 

By the way, there is no better link to the Bible online than the one above. Check it out. What a wonderful resource!!!! :hihi:

[Pyrotex]

Why do you feel the need to bring religion into this discussion?...You're trying to say that the idea (murder is wrong) must be false because the source (the bible) must be false, but that's simply not a true analogy - ideas are seperate from their source.

Well, actually, you have a good point there.

The reason I bring religion in is the obvious reason--the most vocal faction in America that opposes abortion is the "religious right" (RR).

Having said that, if you wish to cast aside scriptural reasons for your opposition to abortion, then wonderful! :hihi: I applaud. Now, I must structure a completely different arguement.

 

Yes, ideas (or beliefs) are separate from their source--mostly. Maybe separate enough. I'll think about this.

[Cedars]

There is no way to keep this topic from getting emotional.

 

I hope those who are pro-life do not get their way with this right women have. I am sure the results will be nothing that they imagined.

 

The pro-lifers tend to delude themselves when they insist every baby should be born, that it will be ok for them, blah blah blah. This simply isnt true. Should America revert back to this kind of control over women, you will see orphanages and children not being adopted. You will see this because many woman, forced to carry a child to term will attempt to raise this child. It will be a desperate woman who finally gives up on providing and hands her child over to the system because it will be the only choice she has. Chances are there will be scars on this childs psychological make up from this desperate begining to life.

 

You will find an unimaginable number of murdered newborns. You will see neglect on a scale not seen since before Roe v Wade gave women a legal option. While these people out there feel a woman shouldnt have a choice, babies have rights, etc... you dont see a large percentage of them out trying to adopt unwanted children. Nope. Its not really about the children, its about what your neighbor is doing a and how it affects your life only on an emotional level.

 

I know a few adopted people. I know some of them have struggled with the issue of why their mother didnt care enough about them to keep them. Some who will never seek out their birth parent because they dont want to find out they were not wanted. That their life was so despised that a mom would hand over the child to strangers, rather than love them for being their baby. They struggle with the whys. Was I a result of rape? is a question they ask themselves as they try to reconcile why their own mother gave them away. To think that of yourself brings its own horrible daymare. Well maybe it was against her religion? Then the question becomes why isnt it against her religion to give me to strangers?

 

Then comes the people who can afford to go to countries where abortion is legal. Do we arrest those people and charge them with murder? Of course not. So then if you have the money, or live close to the border, abortion wont be as illegal for you as it will for the poor. Or the not wealthy enough. For minors who have to have a guardian to get them across the border. Yes its easy to take away choice from other people as long as it wont affect how you already intend to live your life.