President bush!

[Tormod]

Originally posted by: cookyman

i see chrisianity as a bit of a shamble religion but that is only my opion but see freethinker there are christians who think there are better ideals out there.

 

Cookyman

 

Eeer...cooky, why then do you consider yourself a Christian? You obviously don't have the faith, which would seem to be a rather importan prerequisite?

 

No offense - I'm curious.

 

Tormod

[Tormod]

Originally posted by: Freethinker

Kerry is not a war monger, religious fanatic that outright lies to the entire world. Kerry is a decorated war hero, not a AWOL coke head drunk. Kerry did not have a string of failed businesses, EVERY biz Bush touched went bankrupt.

 

FT, I have been wondering about this for a while. What is it with Americans - why is it so important to people what sort of military history their President has?

 

I understand that they feel outraged when presidents pretend to be heroes but turn out to have skimped the service (like Bush Jr.) but I just don't get it. Is it because they feel a war hero would be a better way to keep the US on top of the world as world police?

 

For the sake of argument, I am a conscientous objector myself and have never been to the army.

 

(The current prime minister in Norway is an ordained priest and the leader of the "People's Democratic Christian Party" (how's that for an oxymoron)...I guess that makes us fundamental for the time being. He happens to be a decent politician but some of his ministers seem to forget that they are running the country and not their local church...)

 

Tormod

[cookyman]

as u said tormod i do not have much christain faith but i was babtised as a anglican christain but i do not really think that christianity is the best religion out there as to say, but that is just my opion so plz don't take any offense at what i have said. i really only follow christianity because i kinda have to and i am only 15 so how am i gonning to go about changing my religion? and half the time i don't even (sry for say this for any christain belivers out ther) but i don't really even belive that there is a god or any divine power. but i am only looking at religion as a belief to followso therforei do not belive that christianity is the 'best' religion out there

SRY bout being a bit vague and all over the place

 

Cookyman

[Freethinker]

Originally posted by: Tormod

 

FT, I have been wondering about this for a while. What is it with Americans - why is it so important to people what sort of military history their President has?

This is a current situation. It was NOT an issue during the previous elections. The last one I can remember that had any serious reference to a candidates military record was Kennedy and the famous PT109.

 

Even in the last election, the military record of the candidates was not a serious issue. Or Bush's drug related AWOL/ desertion during a time of the country's active military involvement would have been brought up then.

 

But Bush and his admin's Chicken Hawk background and their complete inability to handle the war they dragged the world into has brought the discussion of actual military history of the candidates into a top position. When the Republicans actually had the gall to claim that a war hero that lost 3 limbs in battle in Vietnam was unpatriotic, and win! then the table needs to be turned back at them. They need to be forced to stand behind their personal records, or lack there of.

 

For Bush to claim to be a war time President brings his background credentials into the light and opens the door for an opponent that actually DID serve honorably to promote that fact.

 

I was a desenter during Vietnam. I was/ am an active protestor of this current nightmare quagmire. I am a pacifist at heart. War is the last (first for this admin?) resort of the anti-intellectual. But if the current admin is going to make military expereince an issue, by forcinbg the US to be actively militarily involved in the world then I need to know what the actual experience is of each. It only shows how ignorant the average US citizen is that they would think that the AWOL deserter Chicken Hawks in our current Admin destroying our military and our world are in a better position to provide security to the US then someone with actual heroic military credentials.

[Freethinker]

Originally posted by: cookyman

as u said tormod i do not have much christain faith but i was babtised as a anglican christain but i do not really think that christianity is the best religion out there as to say, but that is just my opion so plz don't take any offense at what i have said. i really only follow christianity because i kinda have to and i am only 15 so how am i gonning to go about changing my religion?

Excuses. Having water sprinkled on you does not mean you always have to be a Christian. Going to religious education does not mean you HAVE to be a Christian. No one is able to FORCE you to be a Christian. By the time you are 15 you are able to decide for yourself on matters such as religious beliefs. I was raised as a Catholic including 6 years of Catholic elementary school. In fact is was religious instruction by a Nun in school that was the turning point for my becoming an Atheist. I was 12 at the time.

 

You are a Christian only because you PERSONALLY claim to be one. If you simply stated that you weren't a Christian, you would not be one. Being 15 is not a limiting factor. It is an excuse.

 

and half the time i don't even (sry for say this for any christain belivers out ther) but i don't really even belive that there is a god or any divine power

Basically you are identifying yourself as NOT being a Christian but are afraid to openly admit it.

i don't really even belive that there is a god or any divine power

Your actual philosophy identifies you as an Atheist. (Congradulations!)

Now you have to develop the intestinal fortitude to openly admit it. You aren't really a Christian, you are an Atheist. Show your grown up enough to admit it.

 

but i am only looking at religion as a belief to follow so therfore i do not belive that christianity is the 'best' religion out there

SRY bout being a bit vague and all over the place

 

You need to comprehend that you do not HAVE TO HAVE a "belief" structure. You can join the fast growing population that has intentionally decided to adopt a rational, logical, educated approach to their personal philosophy. You can become part of the solution, rather than a mindless continuation of the problem. All you have to do is to start by allowing yourself to admit to yourself that

i don't really even belive that there is a god or any divine power

means you ARE an Atheist.

[Uncle Martin]

WOW !!!

 

I have certainly learned alot reading this thread. Thanks Freethinker for all of the links, very educational. My thoughts are almost completely in line with yours in regards to Bush.I must questionyour assertion that Cookyman is actually an Atheist. He surely is not a "Christian", but there are alternatives other than Atheism. Agnosticism may be an alternative.A modified version of ithas served me well.

 

Cookyman,

 

In a previous post you refer to the apparent arrogance of Americans. Let me assure you that what our politicians say and do is not representative of the public at large. With a government that is supposed to be "of the people and for the people" that may seem counter intuitive, but it is true. I have nothing but the utmost respect for Australia and Australians, I only hear the term "Aussie" on television. I know I'm being presumptuous, but I must apologize on behalf of the U S public for any misunderstandings caused by politicians and the media machine.

 

It's them, not us!

[Tim_Lou]

alright.....this topic has turned out to be a religions topic...again...

 

tomord is part of it...so....

 

here is my reply....

buddhism doesnt have "god"

 

tell me what are these:

http://www.fojiaocheng.com/zhenchang2.htm

 

human figures?? guess not...

 

devas?? your sayin that theyr like "tooth fairy"?

 

temples are being made out of these "god"

each "god" rules a certain stuff.. like money, love.... and beyond all these "god", there is an ultimate one, the only, the supreme god....(??) sry, dont know the name in english...tell me how is it not god?

 

*people praise to god! everytime my mon go out, she put some "joss stick" in front of the on of the "god" figure in my house for "safety".....

 

my grandpa got some illness, and my grandma go to temple and praise to god....

 

(does anyone praise to "tooth fairy"?)

[Freethinker]

Originally posted by: Uncle Martin

Thanks Freethinker for all of the links, very educational.

I am pleased to have the opportunity to expose the Bush admin for the absolute nightmare it is. I can not believe that anyone that has factual knowledge of the subject can possibly support Bush. He and his clan need to be arrested and tried in International Court for war crimes.

I must question your assertion that Cookyman is actually an Atheist.

I'm always glad to answer questions. Sometimes I can actually answer them correctly! I think this is one of those times.

He surely is not a "Christian",

I felt very secure that anyone that would try to disprove my assertion of no Christian would claim Christianity is not THE correct religion. I think Cookyman's followup proves my point.

but there are alternatives other than Atheism.

AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH NNNOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Here we go again. There are certain things it seems I will be forced to repeat many times for my entire life. This is one of them. (Burden of proof being tied for 1st?)

 

"Theism", a belief in a personal god. (if it were not a "personal" god, it would be Deism)

 

Then we apply basic Philosophy 101. The Law of Identity (tied into the Law of Excluded Middle). For a proposition "A", something either IS "A" or is NOT "A".

 

Thus either a person IS a Theist, HAS a personal god belief, or they are "not a" Theist. A person that is "not a" Theist, IS an "A"theist. That is the exact definition of an Atheist, "NOT a Theist". Anything else is externally added baggage. Like "baby killing, prostitution supporting, drug addict". (A definition that was personally presented to me by a "loving Christian" at a State Fair Booth my Freethought group sponsors. Along with the comment that "someone should find a nice grave for (me)")

Agnosticism may be an alternative. A modified version of it has served me well.

Gnostic - "to KNOW", also a religion, popular around the time the biblical Jesus was claimed to live and very likely where Christianity came from, that was based on the idea that you "could know" by factual support, that god existed.

 

Now we go back to what "A" is as a prefix. "A"gnostic, to "not be able" to KNOW.

 

as such Agnostic does not define a person's Theistic value, (Theist/ Atheist) but whether that person accepts their Theistic stance based on whether they feel they can know with some level of certainty or not. Thus a person could be an Agnostic Theist. They "believe" there is a personal god, even thought they admit there is no way to actually know. We refer to this as "Faith". Or a person could be a Gnostic Theist. They believe there is a god and fell they have factual proof to support it.

 

Or to the contrary, Gnostic Atheist states there is not a god and there is factual proof, valid reasoning to hold that philosophy. Leaving an Agnostic Atheist. Now remember, if you are NOT a Theist, you HAVE TO BE an "A"theist. (even if you do not want to admit it) So an Agnostic Atheist is one that feels there is no way to know, but does not have the faith needed to accept a personal god belief anyway.

[Freethinker]

Originally posted by: Tim_Lou

alright.....this topic has turned out to be a religions topic...again...

Bush is a Fundamentalist, End Times Christian Fanatic. So it is a valid part of the Bush discussion.

 

tell me what are these:

 

http://www.fojiaocheng.com/zhenchang2.htm

 

Pictures!

 

AS my PC does not display any wording from the site, which I would probably not be able to read anyway...

[Tim_Lou]

sry about the words....

 

its just b/c its easier for me to find some chinese website....than english...

[Freethinker]

Siddhartha Gautama "the Buddha", the 1st Buddha, stated that he was NOT a god and should not be followed as one. To which his followers said "Yes God!". lol.

 

Shades of "Life of Brian".

 

Anyway, just like most other ancient belief systems, there have been any number of convolutions of the original intent and teachings. In fact we do not know anything directly about Siddhartha Gautama. What we "know" about him and his teachings come from texts written decades/ centuries after the fact. Mainly to resolve growing disputes within the philosophical group.

 

As Buddhism comes out of Hinduism, there are any number of "avitars", which are often referred to as "gods". (Lower case 'g'). But they do not fit the defintion of "GOD" (upper case "G") as in the Christian or Islamic God. Or even the God's of Greece or Rome.

 

Today the word god is thrown around so much, given so many arbitrary meanings, that it is often useless in discussions without first providing a mutually ageeable definition.

[Tormod]

Tim, most of the pictures as far as I can see are Buddha statues. Wish I could read the text but my Chinese is, well, non-existent...

 

Tormod

[Tormod]

And a warm welcome to you, Uncle Martin. Agnosticism is just a different word for "eternal life insurance", as far as I can tell. I doubt it will work at the pearly gates.

 

Tormod

[Uncle Martin]

Thank you Tormod for the welcome.

 

I should have explained further I suppose, "the modified version" portion of agnosticism. I find it odd that nobody cared to ask for those details. My fault for not explaining. Definitions according to my dictionary;

 

Atheism: The doctrine that God does not exist.

Agnosticism: The doctrine that one cannot know God, first truths or anything beyond material phenomena.

 

My personal, subjective views lie somewhere between the two. I know Freethinker, this should not be possible, it either is or is not. I just can't be so absolute as to disallow any gray area. I DO NOT believe in god! There exist no evidence for me to accept such a profound concept. However, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. The uncertainty principal may disallow intelligent design, but to my understanding no matter how improbable an event it can never be absolutely impossible.

 

It is not "eternal life insurance", it is my logical conclusion. There is no god until I see proof otherwise. This doesn't disallow the possibility that my information could change, no matter how unlikely. I really don't usually think much about it, but this is the way I see it. I may have been using the wrong word to describe my thoughts all these years, I'll have to give changing it some consideration.

[Uncle Martin]

Alright,

I've given it some thought and agnostic atheist is the most accurate term. Thanks FT for pointing that out, I appreciate linguistic precision almost as much as you seem to. Sadly, I rarely achieve the level of precision I wish.

 

(Well isn't it sad that I proclaim linguistic precision and then have to edit two spelling errors? ;-)

[Tormod]

Now folks, this thread seems to stray off topic - start new ones!

 

Uncle Martin - I'm glad to have you around. Hope you find other topics of interest here (or post your own). We suffer from an overdose of Christians (but thanks to them there is always something to discuss...)

 

Tormod

[GAHD]

Oh! Bush. First off, my favorite quote about the war came from an Iraqi; "Sadam may have been a murderer, but atleast I didn't have to see it in the street every day!"

He came into office with a criminal record.

On the topic of murder, Bush Jr. has THE RECORD for death penalties, a large portion of which were later found innocent.

he was a producer of a Hollywood slasher "B" movie.

He is a blatant liar, the recorded list being so long I wouldn't think of typing it out.

He is a TERRORIST; the "massive bombardment" which was designed to incite fear(terror) in the natives and hopefully cause them to rebel.

Secured the Oil fields FIRST(and can you guess which companies took them over and moved American workers in to replace the locals?).

Fairly claims that god put him into position as president; I agree, there is NO other way he could have gotten the position(Humor here). Then again that might also be why he refused UN Election Inspectors; they generally don't abide by God's word.

Has acted in ways that blatantly broke the Geneva convention even before these recent cases sprouted up; technically forfeiting the rights of US soldiers to the 'fair' treatment outlined therein.

he made laws and executive orders circumventing the Constitution.

 

And am I the only one who noticed what looked to be the marks of Electroshock when they found Hussain?

 

I say hang the bastard, draw and quarter him, then sit him in his favorite lethal injection chair and finish the job with a 98% saline(salt) solution I.V. drip.

 

At least all Clinton did was get Blown at work and smoke pot(Well he covered up someone else's mess too.); not Blow up a city then do a line(or vice-versa?). Please pardon the gruffness, but there's no other way to say it properly.

 

There is a particular 'Song'(more like an essay spoken to music) "anatomy of your Enemy" (by Antiflag) which details precisely what psychological methods are being used by Bush, Blair, and many other leaders in "the war on terrorism".

 

Were I a member of the U.S. Senate, I would fully invoke U.S. CONSTITUTION Article II, Section 4:"The President, Vice President and all civil Officers of the United States, shall be removed from Office on Impeachment for, and Conviction of , Treason, Bribery, or other high Crimes and Misdemeanors."

 

also a little news for Tormod; "Bush will use his visit to Normandy and other European stops..." - link