Understanding Time...?

[coldcreation]

time has no mass, no particles, no speed, and exerts no influence. it is just a measurement created by man for separating event intervals. i would say there are moments in time like the instant i strike this keyboard.

 

Questor, If I understand you correctly, you're saying that if you remove man from this universe, time would no longer exist. Is that right?

 

CC

[Tarantism]

Questor, If I understand you correctly, you're saying that if you remove man from this universe, time would no longer exist. Is that right?

 

CC

if you remove man from the universe, does the universe exist?

[Queso]

If you removed man from the universe, you would probably be god!

good for you!

NOW-

the universe still exists

as well as time.

time IS a dimension, like space.

WAHOO!

[coldcreation]

If you removed man from the universe, you would probably be god!

good for you!

NOW-

the universe still exists

as well as time.

time IS a dimension, like space.

WAHOO!

 

Hmm, what, now, if one removes god from the universe? Is there still a universe left to contemplate? Time? Space? Gravity? Lambda? The big bang? Is god the Big Bang, Is the big bang god? Is man still around to create a new god? Can space exist without time, can time exist without god, can space exist without man, can time exist without muons, machos, wimps, nerds, axions, neutrinos, X-particles, Y-particles, Z-particles, WMAP, Inflation, new inflation, Chaotic inflation, eternal inflation, the free lunch, Atom Ant, DNA, RNA, can man exist without Questor, can time exist without space, can Hypography exist without orbsycli, without Pooof, Pufff, Infy, Turtle, Tormod, can Scienceforum exist without cyberspace.

 

What is cyberspace? Why shouldn't we call it Cyberspacetime?

 

CC

[Tarantism]

If you removed man from the universe, you would probably be god!

good for you!

NOW-

the universe still exists

as well as time.

time IS a dimension, like space.

WAHOO!

 

ah, yes i had been waiting for you to chime in on this one.

[Zilali]

I have a question. Does any theory suggest that time could be quantised or is it always regarded as continous.

 

Also how would you define a dimension as what i would define a dimension does seem to apply for time?

[questor]

CC, you said:

'' Questor, If I understand you correctly, you're saying that if you remove man from this universe, time would no longer exist. Is that right?

 

CC''

 

not at all, i do not think the presence of man has any influence on nature's forces. if man did not exist, all other physical laws and forces would remain in effect.

( unless you want to inject God's creation of man into the equation )

[questor]

CC, you said:

'' Questor, If I understand you correctly, you're saying that if you remove man from this universe, time would no longer exist. Is that right?

 

CC''

 

not at all, i do not think the presence of man has any influence on nature's forces. if man did not exist, all other physical laws and forces would remain in effect. if this was not true, without man objects would not age.

( unless you want to inject God's creation of man into the equation )

[CraigD]

Photon Clocks.

I assume that these are the only clocks that have been used to determine time dilation. If so, would this time dilation occur if another type of clock were used (one that does not rely on light waves)?

I think you assume incorrectly.

 

Photon clocks (more commonly called “light clocks”) are essentially the subject only of thought experiments. Though possible in principle, the engineering challenges are daunting, especially for any device small enough to be portable. I’ve not heard of anyone actually making a practical, long-running, ultra-accurate light clock, such as would be necessary to actually conduct the experiment described in these thought experiments.

 

To the best of my knowledge, all time dilation experiments involving man-made clocks have used cesium fountain atomic clocks, carried either on aircraft or satellites. Only these clocks have the extreme accuracy and precision to detect the small effects time dilation effects (.000038 seconds/day, in the case of GPS satelites) associated with the very small (relative to the speed of light) velocities of these vehicles, and slight changes in gravitation associated with their altitudes.

 

Given sufficient velocity, or a sufficiently strong gravitational field, any clock can be used to measure time dilation – a wrist watch, the aging of a human being, radiocarbon decay – any kind of “clock”, and all will experience exactly the same dilation as each other, and atomic clock, or a light clock.

 

How can this be? Consider, on the macroscopic mechanical level, how an ordinary mechanical clock works: a piece of spring metal pushes a series of gears, driving a balance wheel (or pendulum, but for this example, let’s consider only a clock that could work without gravity) which, via escapement teeth, regulates the movement of additional gears, and, finally, the hands of the clock. The force required for this movement is transmitted by direct contact between the metal parts.

 

Now consider how this force is is transmitted on the level of elementary particles: the actual fermionic matter – electrons, and the quarks constituting protons and neutrons in the metal atoms – never make physical contact. Force, both between the metal atoms in each part and between the parts, is transmitted by bosons of magnetic force – photons. According to the theory that predicts these elementary particles, these massless bosons travel at exactly the speed of light in vacuum (on this scale, all space is vacuum), and are subject to the same relativistic effects as the photons in a light clock.. So, the movement of a mechanical clock is ultimately no different than that of a “photon clock”.

 

The same reductionistic explanation can be applied to the atoms in a biological system, or any other potential clock.

[arkain101]

Another time dialation experiment was in a particle accelerator.

 

They used a particle that had a specific half-life. This means for example; every 0.2 seconds the large nucleus of the atom lets go radiation from particles of the nucleaus falling off from being unstable. In a state of rest they can measure how long the half life of a cirtain element is. Then they can put this particle into a particle accelerator. Speed it up to a cirtain velocity at hopefully the exact time (not sure on the exact details) but using the calculations, someone using standard mechanics physics would say.. Okay, the particle will emmit energy right here after .2 seconds. Although they found that the half life of the element was extended, and the distance it traveled was more than the standard calculations would show and precisely where Special Relativity stated it would. I dunno it seems like there could be alot room for error, but the qualified boys say this is a pretty darn good example of SR being correct.

[arkain101]

I dunno, time, a confusing subject...

 

Ive contimplated time alot, and although there is alot of theories out there, I seem to agree with this idea of mine, most specifically to the big picture of what time could be.

 

Time seems to be a count, or compilation of equally spaced (drum) beats that we create as an action occurs to develope a comprehension of a, start, and an end, of a scene of action closed in symbolic parenthesis, that unfolds in the course of infinity, where the unconcirned, continuing action of the matter involved in the [scene] is unimportant, but, continues to exist in an infinite realm. And, the conscious interpratation would appear to be directly related to ones concious vibration or hertz processing frequency and speed to determine a lengthy or short base 60 (?) second of time.

 

 

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Considering satellites are in the range of 242 km or, 242,000 m, from the location on earth that they signal to. The signal also travels through an atmosphere and maganetic fields.

With the speed of the signal being in the range of 299 792 458 m/s

and using the consideration of a time difference of .000038 per day of a satalite. It could be a part of this time dialation??

When we send a signal to the satalite to tell it what time to adjust itself. Or even if it does it itself, there is an amount of time included here where the signal is needed to be sent from A to B through air which takes time and over time the latency would obviously need to be on constant correct for perfection. Not only that, but the signal has a head and tail which I am guessing is longer than the path it has to travel which would in a sense double the time in which the signal is delayed to?.

I did a quick jot of numbers and it seems like there is a significant delay here.

 

-------------

 

What if we divide a second in half and consider that 1 second, then devide that in half and consider that one second, and keep deviding that in half over and over and over untill we come to the point that we can let 4trilltion of these seconds pass by and time will literally seem to have not changed. Yes we dont call time intervals taht small seconds. But my point in this is that what we consider one second of time is to a house fly in the range of a day, per say. Our "reaction time" or hertz of interpretation and reflex of reality would seem to create a consideration of time.

 

IF we were as massive as a mountain for example, IT would take about a second to make your hand move when you wanted it to. Lets say you take a stroll, and to your interpretation (size ratio) you are only walking 2mph, but, if you walked into someone it would be as if a nuclear bomb went off and time would seem to be "normal" but very slow compared to being this size. And if a plane flew by you that was normal size at our 500km/h it would literally appear that it was nearly not moving and the people would likewise seem to almost literally not be covering distance at a very high velocity as they walked around on the plane.

[questor]

could these variations of time be functions of the clocks themselves ? if you had 10 different clocks, would the time differential be the same in all 10 ?

or does time actually change with velocity of the clock ? if it does,is there a place where standard time exists, or are all our interstellar dating estimates

incorrect? if time differs throughout the universe, how can we depend on time ? if you were standing outside the universe looking in at all the expansion, would time be absolute or variable ?

[coldcreation]

CC, you said:

'' Questor, If I understand you correctly, you're saying that if you remove man from this universe, time would no longer exist. Is that right?

CC''

not at all, i do not think the presence of man has any influence on nature's forces. if man did not exist, all other physical laws and forces would remain in effect. if this was not true, without man objects would not age.

( unless you want to inject God's creation of man into the equation )

 

Questor you're changing your tune. You had written, and I quote, "time has no mass, no particles, no speed, and exerts no influence. it is just a measurement created by man for separating event intervals. i would say there are moments in time like the instant i strike this keyboard."

 

Time is clearly not one of natures forces, so removing man from your equation changes nothing in your last post. In the first quote though, you write time is created by man, so removing her changes the entire nature of time, according to your definition. It eliminates time from the universe.

 

CC

[questor]

CC, your quote:

''Time is clearly not one of natures forces, so removing man from your equation changes nothing in your last post. In the first quote though, you write time is created by man, so removing her changes the entire nature of time, according to your definition. It eliminates time from the universe.''

 

CC, i'm singing the same tune. reread my post, i said time is the MEASUREMENT man has created to measure the lapse between events. time itself exists independently of man and if there are other beings in the universe, it may be measured differently, but it would still be the same intervals. while time may not be a specific

FORCE, it is certainly a Presence or an Entity. i would say time is part of the fabric of the universe itself.

[arkain101]

here is a thought.

 

What if a clock going .9999C experiencing alot of time dialation interacts with a cloud of atoms that are at absolute zero velocity. So we have a frozen "time" interacting with the fastest time sector possible. Would this really mean that the atoms in the clock going .9999C are nearly frozen in time compared to the atoms at rest and so would be unable to reaction chemically with anyone because the electrons and such all experiencing time so slowly.. If atoms were to connect they would smash I guess, maybe form some new elements?

 

Something tells me its time to get real, time dialation is a joke... I developed an experiment idea to what I consider would be an a very accurate test of SR and all its weirdo stuff involved.

[Tarantism]

well, if you remove man from the universe, time would still be there, there would jsut be nobody there to call it "time". however, it would be there regardless.

[CraigD]

Considering satellites are in the range of 242 km or, 242,000 m, from the location on earth that they signal to. The signal also travels through an atmosphere and maganetic fields.

With the speed of the signal being in the range of 299 792 458 m/s

and using the consideration of a time difference of .000038 per day of a satalite. It could be a part of this time dialation??

No. The delay between the time a signal is sent by a GPS satellite and the time it is received by a GPS receiver is accounted for by the receiver’s software. This delay is what allows the receiver to determine its distance from (at least) 4 of the satellites, which is how it calculates its position in 3 dimensional space, and expresses it to its user as latitude, longitude, and elevation.

 

The signal itself contains, along with various other data (including the precise orbit of the satellite, kept accurate by frequent measurements by special ground-based observatories), a 1023 bit number telling the receiver when it was sent, and by which satellite. Through a complicated scheme that allows the system to work without requiring the receiver to have a bulky, expensive atomic clock as accurate as those on the satellites, this provides the receiver with enough data to calculate its precise position.

 

The clocks on GPS satellites are very accurate – about +- .000000001 sec/day, so are well capable of measuring the .000038 sec/day effects of relativistic time dilation – and, in fact, do.

Something tells me its time to get real, time dialation is a joke...

There is a very real, consistently measured effect that agrees well with the time dilation described by Relativity – it’s certainly not a joke, or a hoax.

 

It would be reassuring if there were more experiment data from a wider range of conditions measuring time dilation, but since the current generation of atomic clocks with the accuracy necessary to collect such data are bulky and expensive, and since nearly everyone involved in professional Science research is convinced of the validity of time dilation, such experiments have not yet been justified. I’m optimistic this will change in the near future, as atomic clocks become dramatically smaller and cheaper, becoming “Standard equipment” on spacecraft (there are many valuable uses on a spacecraft for a super-accurate clock, other than testing Relativity). Check out this computer chip-size atomic clock prototype, built last year by the NIST. Everybody’s going to be wanting one of these! :naughty:

 

Given the success of Relativity in predicting observed time dilation to date, I suspect that future experiments will continue to agree very closely. However, I wouldn’t be surprised if small discrepancies are observed, which could be immensely valuable to Physicists working to narrow the huge number of variations of theories attempting to unify Quantum Mechanics, Gravity, and Relativity.