"The Christian Paradox"

[CraigD]

In 4565, goku offers the following Bible verse:

because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

matthew 7:14

Then Jesus said to his disciples, "I tell you the truth, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."

- Matthew 19:23-24

 

It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."

- Mark 10:25

 

Indeed, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."

- Luke 18:25

The Bible is clear on this point – an important part of the path to salvation is the renunciation of wealth for one’s own benefit. Yet, except for many nuns and a few monks, I’ve known only 2 Christians who, even briefly, wholeheartedly embraced a life of service and poverty, trusting in God to provide for their material needs and security.

 

“God helps those who help themselves”

- Ancient adage, including a 1736 edition of Benjamin Franklin's (like many of the founding fathers, an admitted non-Christian Deist) Poor Richard's Almanack (does not appear in any protestant or Catholic Bible)

According to a 2004 poll, 85% of Americans identify themselves as Christians (by comparison, 77% of Israelis identify themselves as Jewish). According to the same poll, 75% of Americans believe that the Bible teaches “God helps those who help themselves”. Some are even able to provide a book and verse for it – often “Hezekiah 6:1”. There is no such book in any protestant or Catholic Bible.

 

This is what the LORD says:

"Cursed is the one who trusts in man,

who depends on flesh for his strength

and whose heart turns away from the LORD

- Jeremiah 17:5

 

He who trusts in himself is a fool,

but he who walks in wisdom is kept safe.

- Proverbs 28:26

Again, the Bible is clear – people should not follow the advice of Benjamin Franklin and attempt to “help themselves”, but should love God, depending utterly on Him for all material needs and security.

 

It’s clear that, if salvation depends on careful adherence to a “narrow path” prescribed by scripture, the majority of American Christians are damned. Rather than being austere and trusting in God alone, most self-identified Christians are materialistic, and trust friends, family, and themselves. Even if one does not believe this, there is clearly a perplexing failure by most Christians to understand the Bible, suggesting a widespread failure of religious education, in America, and perhaps, worldwide.

 

(A similar, more thorough treatment of this subject appears in Bill McKibben’s 9/15/05 essay “The Christian Paradox”)

[lindagarrette]

In 4565, goku offers the following Bible verse:

Then Jesus said to his disciples, "I tell you the truth, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."

- Matthew 19:23-24

 

Around the time the gospel writers and Paul were proclaiming the existance of a "savior," Jerusalem was enclosed by a wall to protect the marketplace from thieves. A toll was charged at one of the entrances, called the "eye of a needle." Merchants had to divest their camels of all goods before being allowed to enter. Of course the more you had the harder it was.

[cwes99_03]

All I can say to this is that poverty is not required. Note the verses you quoted said it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle. It was both figurative for the minds eye, and possibly refering to this entrance to the temple as well (though I've not seen any evidence for when this entrance received this name, possibly after Jesus had already died.)

It does make sense with all of his other teachings, particularly the one found at matthew 6:24 that no man can slave for two masters namely riches and God.

Does the mean that if one has any type of money that he cannot have any hope of entering the kingdom of God?

Luke 16:9

2 Thes 3:10-12

1 Tim 5:8

1Tim 6:17-19

[goku]

matthew 19:25, 26

when the disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, who then can be saved?

but jesus beheld them, and said unto them,with men this is impossible; but with god all things are possible.

[goku]

In [thread=4565]an important part of the path to salvation is the renunciation of wealth for one’s own benefit. Yet, except for many nuns and a few monks, I’ve known only 2 Christians who, even briefly, wholeheartedly embraced a life of service and poverty, trusting in God to provide for their material needs and security.

ephesians 2:8, 9

for by grace are ye saved through faith; and not of yourselves: it is the gift of god:

not of works, lest any man should boast.

 

no man can live good enough to get into heaven, that is why jesus had to die.

he is the sacrifice to end all sacrifices :evil:

[cwes99_03]

Though to say paraphrase it that way makes it seem like one could do anything that he/she wanted and it would be completely at God's discression to decide who goes to heaven. What then would the point be of living a righteous life and being counted worthy of resurrection?

 

No, if you read the entire chapter of ephesians i think you'll note that he was refering to acts of miraculous healing, and those early christians having a full share in the preaching and teaching work of non-christians. That they should not get puffed up because one had converted 10 while another had converted none. As long as they were both having a share in that work, then they were both brothers in spirit. He also notes that some of them had lived for a longer period in the world and had done many and worse things and that these things might limit them in their abilities and conscience. However, God had received them all equally for their own acts of righteousness and he had drawn many of those converted to those who were doing the preaching and teaching work. And all doing these things would share in the spiritual rewards after the resurrection.

Thanks for reading that explanation of Eph. chap. 2.

[goku]

Though to say paraphrase it that way makes it seem like one could do anything that he/she wanted and it would be completely at God's discression to decide who goes to heaven. What then would the point be of living a righteous life and being counted worthy of resurrection?

no, its our decision whether or not to go to heaven.

resurrection?

[BEAKER]

"The Christian Parradox" - (the only one?)

 

Hardly.

 

Money is a tool. How do you use yours?

 

If you had piously given away all that your possessions and were flat broke, starving to death waiting for God to provide for you and He provided in some miraculous way -"...abundantly above and beyond all you could ask or think..."; would you be wrong to use what He provided, or should you give it away because it was materialistic to keep it?

 

"It is greater to give than to recieve".

 

But you'll never know that unless you've got enough to give.

 

It's an expensive world to live in for us all; but I'll admit there's plenty of room for improvement in most peoples choice of how to use their surplus - mine included I'm sure.

[cwes99_03]

Not to disagree with our sense of charity and need to provide, the greater to give than receive thought wasn't directly about money. It was really about giving of yourself. Being humble you would want to exalt another before yourself. But then there was the thought that we should be hard workers so that we might have something to provide (materially) when one of our brothers was in need.

[infamous]

"The Christian Parradox" - (the only one?)

 

 

 

Money is a tool. How do you use yours?

 

Absolutely BEAKER; St. Luke 12:48, "For unto whom-soever much is given, of him shall be much required"

 

This admonition to exersize wisdom carries with it the responsibility to recognize the obligation of thankfulness to God for the blessing. And how do we accomplish this? By sharing our fortunate circumstances with others. Like with so many other things, the money is not really the issue. The real point is how it's put to use. Very often you'll hear people wrongly quote scripture by saying: "Money is the root of all evil" when the correct wording is:

 

"The Love of money is the root of all evil."

[cwes99_03]

Again a misapplication of the scriptures toward money, but not wholely wrong either. That scripture was referring toward responsibility in the congregation, though Jesus was using an illustration involving money. He was referring to those who took on the responsibility to teach, after having been given many abilities and much knowledge.

[Southtown]

Nice thread Craig. Good topic. Without tyring to sort out the added issues of example scriptures offered in explanation, I think the appearance of paradox in the first post stems from confusion regarding the rich man's question:

“

And as he was going forth into the way, there ran one to him, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Teacher, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?”

—

Mark 10:17 asv

The subject becomes earning eternal life, which only Jesus was capable of. That is why the Messiah replies:

“

And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good save one, even God.

 

Thou knowest the commandments, Do not kill, Do not commit adultery, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Do not defraud, Honor thy father and mother.

 

And he said unto him, Teacher, all these things have I observed from my youth.

 

And Jesus looking upon him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me.”

—

Mark 10:18-21 asv

Notice Jesus says nothing about the believing of faith. The question is 'what should I do to inherit eternal life'. And the answer is: more than you are capable of.

 

When the rich man realized that he was incapable, he left disappointed, and Jesus then spoke the camel/needle stuff which still pertains to human's earning salvation. The disciples' hopes were deflated upon hearing because they were not yet clued in to the sacrifice the Savior would offer for the world. So worried that they were not "good enough", they inquired:

 

“

And they were astonished exceedingly, saying unto him, Then who can be saved?”

—

Mark 10:26 asv

 

Jesus tries to clue them in by noting the difference of viewpoint between his disciples and himself by saying:

“

Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is impossible, but not with God: for all things are possible with God.”

—

Mark 10:27 asv

This is the first hint of a notion that salvation does not come by man's earning it. And from within this misunderstanding stems our discussion.

 

The fact that only the Messiah was capable of living a perfect life to actually attain salvation should not be in dispute, so I won't bother rehashing "salvation by faith". Except I will add a few more scriptures to leave you all thinking:

“

And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and will proclaim the name of Jehovah before thee; and I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will show mercy on whom I will show mercy.”

—

Exodus 33:19 asv

“

But Jehovah said unto Samuel, Look not on his countenance, or on the height of his stature; because I have rejected him: for Jehovah seeth not as man seeth; for man looketh on the outward appearance, but Jehovah looketh on the heart. ”

—

1 Samuel 16:7 asv

[BEAKER]

Again, the Bible is clear – people should not follow the advice of Benjamin Franklin

I can't find that verse...

 

It’s clear that, if salvation depends on careful adherence to a “narrow path” prescribed by scripture, the majority of American Christians are damned. Rather than being austere and trusting in God alone, most self-identified Christians are materialistic, and trust friends, family, and themselves.

I have found that the most Godly people I know don't sit around condemning those around them , they simply get involved with helping draw others to the love of God, displayed in the person of Jesus Christ - and of course since "...we are the only Jesus some will ever see..." we better be about displaying genuine compassion and understanding to all people, and when the oportunity presents itself, let people know what you believe about God and Jesus Christ through relevant circumstances. You can always bring up the subject, but of course if they're not interested, don't waste your time or theirs. Jesus never did. Do you need a verse to back that up?

 

Even if one does not believe this, there is clearly a perplexing failure by most Christians to understand the Bible, suggesting a widespread failure of religious education, in America, and perhaps, worldwide.

You said a mouthfull here; but still - "...bringing up our children in the way they should go, so that when they are old they won't depart from it...", was never intended to be the job of the school system.

[HydrogenBond]

What is sort of interesting is that ancient sacrifices to God often involved burnt offerings of the things of value during those days, like animals and grain. What this ment was that when one gave an offering to God it went up in smoke so that it was a pure loss of wealth sacrificed to God. This got watered down to where a sacrifice to God ment filling the pockets of someone who is suppose to be an intermediary to God hoping he or she would give it to the poor because these were the blessed or closest to God. After all the middle men get their cuts, there is often little left for the poor so that the sacrifice goes to salesmen and not God.

[BEAKER]

...After all the middle men get their cuts, there is often little left for the poor so that the sacrifice goes to salesmen and not God.

That depends on who the middle man is; and whether or not the congregation (specifically the individuals who make up the congregation) are tithing (giving a full 10 percent of their wealth), so that the "storehouse" is abundantly full. Also, feeding the poor is not the only legitimate use for contributions collected.