Is it possible to have physics without time.

[arkain101]

I was doing some thinking and some minor calculations and came to the conclusion of a possibility that time does not exist and is only a tool.

 

We needed the tool of time to find the beggining of our sciences.

 

If we measure the velocity of an object by distance/ time. Resulting in m/s. I began to wonder if now we could use a different tool other than time to work out this type of calculation. for example.

If we want to know how fast a 1kg ball is traveling we can measure its Kinetic energy by catching it. Then using a mass to rest standard, could we learn to use the increase of kinetic energy witht he mass of an object to determine a new kind of velcity. We would need a chart to represent what 3.2 x KE would = to in m/s ... but eventually we should be able to concieve velocity rather than m/s to KE @ V . When we see an object fly by we could make an estimation, wow that thing is traveling about 100m/s or with this knowledge we could likewise say if I know the mass of that object I could say it is travling at 40 times its rest constant.

I hope you see what I am getting at with this. We can measure velocity by catching objects and measuring the work done, but, would not directly refer to its velocity as m/s but rather how much KE it had. This is not exactly the best way to measure how fast something is moving but the point is to show how time is a tool, an equally spaced count of exactly the same intervals. and that KE can be used as tool to also concieve velocity.

 

This is off topic but I was thinking a bit about rest of an object. There is no absolute rest. Maybe I am stating the obvious but the only way for something to have a velocity of zero is for an observing frame or second reference frame to be in equall motion as the considered rest frame. If an object is flying at 1000m/s it can be considered rest as long as you are flying along at the same velocity or if a considered reference frame is involved. Like if there were two earths orbiting the sund a few thousand miles apart. We would say its rest. but someone sitting on mars would say they are both traveling at such and such V.

[Jay-qu]

haha good thought - I like it

 

and I would have to say that maybe there would be physics but it would be meaningless. All measuralbe effects take time to occur - a falling body due to gravity, decay of a radioactive isotope the list goes on

[EWright]

Interesting concept. Let's discuss it over lunch. I'll let you know where and WHEN, as soon as I figure out how to translate that second variable into a kenetic reference. :)

[Erasmus00]

Interesting, but to define kinetic energy, you need to notice that the unit isn't fundamental.

Energy units = mass*distance^2/time^2, so you still have time.

-Will

[arkain101]

Yes, like I mentioned, we would require the tool of time to get this started, but if it once became accepted couldnt it theoretically replace the standard way of figuring out distance.

Of course time is required in so many ways in life, but what the point of this is, is that, I am trying to comprehend if time is not an entity. By this I mean, time is not a relavent fundemental in the function of "UNIVERSE". (I leave out the, for this reason. If I say I exist on earth or live in new york, I dont say I live on the earth very often or I live in the new york. The Universe is, a reaction from the fundanmentals that make it up like an apple, it is a reaction from fundementals.) Anyways getting back on track here.

Time is relavent for us for sure but I see it no more as a symbolic measureing tape to measure a section in our time scale of life and has grown along with our own intellectual advancement to become a more acurate tape to measure larger than personal important times and smaller than concievable times.

But to prove things can be accomplished without time shows how one tool can be exhanged in the place of another to get the job done.

 

Like I said if we make a standard. we dont need the KE equation to accomplish this.

Am I right?

here we go.

 

1gram @ 1mm/sec = Standard number of KE. Now we can use that standard to say okay. I caught an object coming at me and measured 400joules of energy. I weighed the object, and it came to exactly 1kg. I can say that this object was traveling at such and such more KE than its KE when nearly zero. Then. Since we dont know yet how to concieve without time we have to go oh.. so that means it was going 28.28m/s or 200times its rest energy.

[Erasmus00]

1gram @ 1mm/sec = Standard number of KE. Now we can use that standard to say okay. I caught an object coming at me and measured 400joules of energy. I weighed the object, and it came to exactly 1kg. I can say that this object was traveling at such and such more KE than its KE when nearly zero. Then. Since we dont know yet how to concieve without time we have to go oh.. so that means it was going 28.28m/s or 200times its rest energy.

 

But hidden in your concept of energy is the concept of time. Just because you don't directly refer to it doesn't mean its not there.

-Will

[arkain101]

Yes because we are so used to comprehending time I had to put it in there to make sense of it.

 

but if we didnt care how long things in life took, and just wanted to see them get done.

 

we could say okay we are going to drive at 543times or rest mass energy to town today kids so buckle up, because, that means we could die on an impact. Then when we get to town we are going to go buy groceries, but we all have to meet back at the car when your meeting device hits the red mark. Then we are going to drive back home at 300times our rest mass energy and be home before its dark at that rate.

lol?

[Erasmus00]

Yes because we are so used to comprehending time I had to put it in there to make sense of it.

 

It's a bit more then that. You simply cannot define energy without defining time. At its most fundamental, the conservation of energy is simply a statement that things are symmetrical in time.

-Will

[kamil]

First of all, whats the point of measuring time via the kinetic energy formula and the d/v=t formula? If we did that someone may say 'why dont we have time as fundamental and measure kinetic energy from that' So whats the point of changing if u will get the same result. Time is a much simpler concept then kinetic energy, time just consists of measuring how sumthing has changed.

E.g: How the position of the hand of a clock has changed. And that measurement can be compared to other occurences, such as a moving car. Time is one of the simplest concepts of the universe. But yes, in order to measure time affectively we have to make sure that no extra forces,momentum and kinetic energy is added to the watches movement.

[Boerseun]

Physics explains the change in states from one condition to another.

Change, delta (whatever) demands time to be present. It takes a certain amount of time to change from one state to another.

Energy transfer also implies time being present, unless all energy is transferred instantly (one again, 'instantly' is also a certain amount of time).

 

You can describe velocity as delta(KE) - but the delta bit demands time again.

 

There's no getting away from it.

 

You can say a pint of milk is contained in a bottle, and the bottle has a cap on. Or you can say a pint of milk lies underneath a cap with a bottle wrapped around it. Same thing, different words.

 

But then, time and age is only important if you're a cheese.

[arkain101]

yah i agree with you guys on this.

 

I felt there is a way to do most of mechanics physics using a different technique or tool. It is true time as we look at it is everywhere something is happening.. I started up this subject because I find it so difficult to accept time dialation. With time dialation, it makes time a part of the universe just as much as light or atoms are, heheh its all so mysterious... Time dialation may be true or there may be a possible unthought of peice to it all thats under our nose, thats why I like to play around with new ideas.. it always leads to making some kind of new discovery.

[kamil]

I know what you mean, you hear people saying 'time bieng warped, bent, dialated:eek_big: ' it doesnt seem abstract. Though if you think deeply about the two postulates of relaltivity you will accept time dilation and regain the abstract perception of it.