Reality

[Uncle Martin]

Originally posted by: Freethinker

 

 

"REALITY" exists independant of perception of it.

 

I really hate to sound like you but, PROVE it. That is an extraordinary claim and I think it requires extraordinary proof.

[Freethinker]

Originally posted by: Uncle Martin

You must think abstractly to understand GR, and although the math is way beyond me, there are too many experts in the field that corroborate it for me to have any serious doubts of it being a valid theory.

I read "Relativity, Special and General" by Einstien not too long ago. Although it had some math in it, is was more a verbal description using analogies and thought experiments. It was fairly easy to comprehend actually. Trains with riders and outside observers, Elevators being accelerated at 1G.

Reality is what you think is real at this moment. 20 years from now you will have a new reality. Their reality was just as real to them. Our's is closer, but not the ultimate reality, maybe. We think keep getting closer, or maybe sometimes we go off on the wrong tangent. History will be the judge of our perceptions.

I do not find "reality" to be a product of personal perception. "Reality" is independant of perception.

 

Lots of people actually think it is real to talk to the dead (as proven by the success of John "biggest douche in the universe" Edward). But we know that is NOT reality. No matter how may believe it.

 

Argumentum ad numerum

 

This fallacy is closely related to the argumentum ad populum. It consists of asserting that the more people who support or believe a proposition, the more likely it is that that proposition is correct.

 

http://www.infidels.org/news/atheism/logic.html#numerum

[Tim_Lou]

so, if a guy doesnt know GR, he doesnt know reality?

 

or, if a guy doesnt believe in GR, he is away from reality?

 

policican is not facing the reality, b/c they never deal with general relativity (space, such and such...).

a athlet is not knowing the realtiy, he only plays sport...

 

 

while a guy who thinks about GR all the time,

without eating,

without drinking,

without sleeping,

finally leads to death.

 

is he in reality?

[OpenMind5]

I think Reality is one of many planes of exsistance. REalitiy is what you make it. I think there are lost of things that are all personal, along with reality. One person's dream is anothers reality and vis versa. I mean, if i live in neverland and eat candy and don't except the world around me, and creat my own world in my head, that becomes my reality. REALITY IS WHAT YOU MAKE IT AND/OR WHAT YOU EXCEPT. So that means if you want cows to fly, they can. But good luck proving it. REality is one of manythings that applys with realativity.

[Freethinker]

Originally posted by: Uncle Martin

Originally posted by: Freethinker

 

"REALITY" exists independant of perception of it.

I really hate to sound like you but, PROVE it. That is an extraordinary claim and I think it requires extraordinary proof.

 

I'm amazed to even see this question. I guess I have to first assume that there might be a symatics issue. Maybe you are defining "reality" in a way that is different from mine defintion. So here is how I am using "reality"

 

Reality - . the quality or state of being real ... something that is neither derivative nor dependent

 

Real - 1 : of or relating to fixed, permanent, or immovable things 2 a : not artificial, fraudulent, illusory, or apparent

 

So my first PROOF is the literal meaning of the term. In this application perhaps the most directly related meaning is: "not artificial, fraudulent, illusory, or apparent"

 

This removes individual perception from involvement with reality.

 

Now, another way to look at it is what is the alternative to a fixed reality that is independant of personal interpretation? It would require that "reality" changed for each individual dependant on their personal perception of it. Thus people that believe they can levitate CAN levitate. They can violate gravity by shear will. But what happens if I walk in. MY "reality" is different from their's. Which "reality" wins? Am I suddenly able to levitate, or do they fall to the ground?

 

Do I have to touch him in order for the conflict to require a single universally applied solution? Or is some proximity involved? Ten feet? Does a door block it? If I am in one room and he is in the other, then we each get our own reality?

 

No, "reality" is a universal constant for everyone, regardless of individual perception differences. That is the ONLY way it CAN work.

[Uncle Martin]

Freethinker,

 

Considering the nature of Tim's question (is GR a fantasy thing) I was suggesting that he may find it easier to understand by thinking abstractly. If the sun and planets being on a rubber sheet is something other than abstract I must be misunderstanding the meaning of the word. I will address reality as soon as I can, I don't have the time right now.

[Freethinker]

Originally posted by: Tim_Lou

so, if a guy doesnt know GR, he doesnt know reality?

I doubt that there is anyone that "knows reality" 100%. I would be willing to bet against it in fact. How well a person perceives the reality he exists in can depend on how much already established knowledge he may have. Many false assumptions can be rejected by having a good basis to start from. Someone that has been exposed to GR would probably have an advantage in understanding their common reality.

 

or, if a guy doesnt believe in GR, he is away from reality?

Depends as to WHY he "doesn't believe". I don't "believe" in ANYTHING. I accpet some things based on valid reasons to do so as a matter of convenience. GR meets many of the tests one can use to evaluate propositions. It does not contradict any other theories which have shown themselves to be valid. Yes there is a commonality we have yet to find with QM, but they each work at their levels. It provides a repetitively accurate predictability. It is falsefyable.

 

Someone would have to have some very extensive proofs to overcome the elegance of GR. But that does not mean it might not happen. But don't expect it to go down without a serious challenger.

 

a athlet is not knowing the realtiy, he only plays sport...

Many of today's professional athletes are trained to get the most advantage they can from reality. Exactly what moves to make when. Computers can map the most effective and efficient moves. Wireframes laid over camera capture provides realtime feedback. They would not ahve to know GR to comprehend how gravity affects them.

 

finally leads to death.

Death is part of life. It comes with the territory.

[CD27]

i belive that reality is really what you make and othrs around you make of it. my inol theory suggests that tiem travel is an ability of the mind. it also suggests that we are all moving in and out of time, basically meaning we are all time traveling but never really realize it. sometimes dreams are thoguhts being projecting to yourself subconciously by you or someone else in a past or future time who is also unconciouse. i have once had a dream that basically told my entre future. it has all come to pass too. if you subconciously belive in something, most of the time it is what the people around you tell you and th8ings of that nature. put it this way, everyone from every time is walking around you all the time. but since they are in another time dimension you can not see them and when you do see them they appear as ghosts. let me share with you something that my friend jeff once told me. he said that he has an aunt who is a writer. she bought a new house and got a desk and went to the basement so that she could write in peace and quiet. one day, and about a week afterwards, she began to see a man on the steps leading up to the next floor. she told him that the man looked kind of puzzled, almost scared actually. then she found a letter, a very old letter, in one of the drawers in the house somewhere. in the letter, a man was talking about a woman that he kept seeing in his basement writing. both had seen a ghost. obiously there was some sort of time warp going on, to this day we can not figure out why it happened. also, there is an article, somewhere, i can't, quite recollect where, but it says there is this police report stating that they found a man who was hit by a taxicab in new york. they couldn't find anyone who recognized the man. when they did the finger print test they found out who the guy was. the only problem was, he came up missing...in 1907. the guy was walking down a dirt road with a few of his friends and jsut vanished in thin air. everyone kinda freaked out, but no one really belived the friends of his, theyy thought they were all crazy. but the guy popped back in time i thin it was about 1985 and was hit by that taxi cab.from what some scientists say, he apparently did one of two things: found a wormhole, or warped into the future. i wouldn't belive it to be a wormhole, because then it would be more than one person that ended up in the future, it wasnt, so a warp would be the best guess. anyways, i'm betting this is happening every single day and we jsut never notice it. because the warp in time is so great, and probably so short of time, that we think it is real, or "reality". for all you know, you could be talkign to someone who is in a different time dimensions, but the difference in time is probably only like a fraction of a second. those kind of time warps are not noticable, but the large one, where literally years of time has elapsed kind of are. so, reality isa mixture of different time entities and different thought sent to your brain by you and other people from different time signitures.

[Tormod]

CD27, could you please hit the ENTER key now and then...it is hard to read your long posts when they are just one block of text.

 

I would be interested in any sources, proof or otherwise anything to backup any of the time warp examples you provide.

 

Tormod

[Uncle Martin]

Freethinker,

 

Back to reality, I must admit to reading very little philosophy, and the contemplation of reality is something I've spent too little time on. Since the start of this topic I have been reading and thinking. I now feel quite foolish for posting what I have, not understanding the true nature of the subject. My apologies, and thanks for inspiring me to see this clearly. My reasons for joining this forum are many, one very important one is to hopefully learn. I have learned.

 

If there was no life, intelligence or consciousness would the universe still exist? Logic tells me yes. It would seem rather meaningless but it would still exist and it would be real. It would be the only reality. If a meteorite hit a planet with an atmosphere in this lifeless universe, would the impact make any sound? No, sound is only the conscious perception of vibrational waves through a medium. Did the meteorite really hit the planet? Yes. So, obviously reality does not need perception to exist. I now see why my challenge for you to prove that amazed you. In hindsight it amazes me that I asked.

 

Again, thanks for the inspiration.

[Freethinker]

Originally posted by: Tormod

I would be interested in any sources, proof or otherwise anything to backup any of the time warp examples you provide.

Tormod, it is obvious at this point that Christian-dud-27 neither has nor even understands the concept of proof/ facts/ reality. He just wants to show his selfrighteous superiority to us non-believers that he states should just "shut up" and accept what ever nonsense he wishes to spew. He does not wish to allow facts and reality to interfer with his world.

 

We can ask for proof/ support/ facts/ ... all we want. He does not have enough of a comprehension of them to even begin to respond intellectually. Perhaps like some of his predecessors here, he will try for a while before he finds out how empty his ramblings are. Perhaps he will realize in front that he is not surrounded by other blind sheep and won't even try to pretend he has any validity.

 

Either way, he will ultimately try to blame those of us that are based in reality for his failures. That if we'd just lower our requirements for facts, we too could "SEE' his convoluted approach.

 

How I love these intellectually stimulating scientific discussions based on solid data.

[Freethinker]

Originally posted by: Uncle Martin

My reasons for joining this forum are many, one very important one is to hopefully learn. I have learned.

Mine also is to learn. There is little I enjoy as much as learning new things. Exposure to factual information that challenges my views is very exhilarating.

 

If a meteorite hit a planet with an atmosphere in this lifeless universe, would the impact make any sound? No, sound is only the conscious perception of vibrational waves through a medium.

Once again we get into symantics. Does "sound" require someone to percieve it before it IS "sound"? Or is "sound" mechanical vibrations, even if there are no sentient entities around to perceive it?

 

Recently Astronomers in England have discovered a black hole in a distant cluster of galaxies that is emitting what would appear to be the "lowest frequency note" known of in existence. The black hole's B-flat is 57 octaves below middle C or one million, billion times lower than the lowest sound audible to the human ear! In terms of frequency (the time it takes a single sound wave to pass by), the lowest sounds a person can hear is 1/20th of a second. The Perseus black hole's sound waves have a frequency of 10 million years!

 

http://www.nasa.gov/lb/vision/universe/starsgalaxies/black_hole_sound.html

 

"If a tree falls in the forest and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound?" That depends on what "sound" means.

Again, thanks for the inspiration.

And you for yours.

[Uncle Martin]

In my humble opinion a vibration through a medium can exist independently of a conscious entity perceiving it. Or labeling it as "sound" using language. The vibrational waves emitted by the black hole you mention are just that, waves. Some other intelligent entity may posess the biological equipment to interpret them as "sound", or whatever they choose to call it. We can't see infrared EM waves with our eyes, but they exist, and are just a different frequency than visible light.

 

Imagine what a different world it would be if Bill Clinton had asked you what the definition of "is", is.

[Tim_Lou]

hmm,

 

if some meteors crash with each other in outer space.

they "make" a "sound"

 

but, there are nearly no particles in the space, (massive)

so, can the sound be heard?

 

i think most people here are right, reality are made up personally.

think about humans, and other animals, their reality are totally different.

[Freethinker]

Originally posted by: Uncle Martin

In my humble opinion a vibration through a medium can exist independently of a conscious entity perceiving it.

Yes, that is the point I was working on. That reality exists independant of personal perception. It is what it is regardless of what we might THINK it is, or even if nothing is aware of it at all.

Or labeling it as "sound" using language. The vibrational waves emitted by the black hole you mention are just that, waves. Some other intelligent entity may posess the biological equipment to interpret them as "sound", or whatever they choose to call it. We can't see infrared EM waves with our eyes, but they exist, and are just a different frequency than visible light.

We tend to be so anthropomorphic prejudiced that we accept artificial rubrics. Mechanical vibrations exist across an extremely wide range. If we include superstring vibrations, the frequency range becomes almost unfanthomable. But we tend to classify it based on our hearing range.

 

Same with "light". It is electromagnetic waves. Some small segment of them happens to excite certain cells in our bodies and another set of cells does electrochemical manipulations based on it. But we are sensitive to a very limited fraction of the complete electromagnetic spectrum.

 

It is obvious that the ranges were selected by Evolutionary processes. With air and water being the primary elements that surround us, and the frequency ranges which are most effecient in each medium out of those energies, it would only be "natural" for species living in these elements to utilize energies in these ranges.

Imagine what a different world it would be if Bill Clinton had asked you what the definition of "is", is.

MoveOn.com

[Freethinker]

Originally posted by: Tim_Lou

i think most people here are right, reality are made up personally.

think about humans, and other animals, their reality are totally different.

Tim, In human reality 1G is 32.2 ft/sec^2. What is gravity in an animal's reality? Does it vary by animal species? Does it go away if they are not "aware" of it? Rocks can't think. They must not have a reality. Or maybe rocks CAN think in some animal's reality? If two animals are in mortal combat, does each win in their own reality? Loose in the other's? Which reality do WE see of the two other realities? Which dead carcus would we see? Neither? Both?

[Tim_Lou]

thinking about an ant is pretty funny.

 

an ant will stick in a water drop, thats pretty messed up.

and an ant might get blown off by the air....flying all around the place.

 

but how do we know how they feel?

yeah, we dont really know...

 

how do we know if we know how they feel?

arh~ i dont know...

 

their reality is actually based on our reality...lol

so, its actually our reality.