Authentic SR Experiment.

[arkain101]

I posted this idea in other topics, but, I assume people didnt want to read another one of my large posts.

 

This idea is to test SR and see whether or not particle accelerators are just incapable of accelerating objects to the velocity of C, or, if the laws SR claim are reasons holding the particle velocity back. It is to test time dialation and the rest involved with the theory. Also, I thought it would find an absolute rest, which may only exist if SR stands true.

 

Alright lets imagine a 3 dimensional compass. Arrows pointing forward-back, right-left, and up-down. Now if there was an object of mass in the middle of these dimensions and it were to accelerate towards one of the directions on the compass towards velocity C it would as SR states, come to a limit, or bascially a maximum V. Now Lets put this model onto earth and put that object inside a particle accelerator. Now the little object that we picture in the center of this 3 dimensional compass is earth, only the velocity of earth in regards to the entire galaxy contained in the fabric of space-time is an unknown. So it is possible to imagine that earth is already traveling in one of these directions at quite a high velocity, however, it is an unknown. So here is what we do in this experiment. We Point this particle acclerator in one direction of this 3 demensional plane. We use a particle with a short enough half-life to become detecable in the experiment and measure its time dialation of where it should appear and where it really does appear. Then we compare the velocity of the particle with the earth or rather, the accelerator. Next, we rotate the accelerator 180 degrees and perform the exact same test, then take down those results. We follow this experiement in each directional plane and take very accurate measurments of important data.

 

So if we detect a differential velocity requirement to find an aparant max V then in the opposite direction to be a relative absolute rest. If the results showed absolutly no difference of date regardless of direction to the smallest degree, then it would appear that earth is relatively at rest. On the other hand we may find that in a certain direction we only need to fire the particle at .5 C in comparison to the accelertor for the particle to hit the .9999C wall. Now if we also consider the estimated velocity of our solar system and the combined velocity of the earth and find that when shooting the particle in that direction that it makes absolutly no difference in the requirement of velocity to aquire the .999C wall the subsequently it should not have anything to do with what SR claims, and should explain that the problem of the maximum particle velocity in a particle accelerator is due to the mechanics of this machine.

 

Would this not be a interesting experiment to perform? If we discover that the galaxy is in fact traveling at a certain velocity through space, or, if we find there is no difference to the slightest degree in which direction a particle is accelerated towards C.

[Boerseun]

Well, that's the gist of the Michaelson-Morley experiment. And they tested for the speed of light in all planes, and couldn't find a change in speed in any direction. And this actually vindicates Einstein.

[arkain101]

allow me to re.. reply.

 

That is interesting they found that the speed of light is as far as they could tell a constant regardless of direction.

 

As far as I can comprehend....If there is a maximum velocity matter can reach in SR mathamatical reasoning, within space-time fabric of the universe, then, there must absolutly be an absolute rest.

The equal maximum achievable velocity in the opposite direction should be according to SR closing its way down towards 0 velocity, correct?

Can someone respond on how logical this sounds?

If there is a scale of velocity like SR seems to include, there should be a beginning (zero absolute, non movment in consideration of space time) and end (the maximum velocity achievable by a plausible power source) of what IS velocity, according to the mathematics...

(As for a demonstrated test in reality.... there could be a more specific test performed. A test or experiment to represent a more concrete set of results and data, then what has been previously performed. These previous results that appear to be able to have different plausible explanations as to why and how.)

 

So, shooting light and measuring the data in all directions to discover whether or not light (electromagnetic energy/radiation) is a constant Distance/Time entity is a significant section of physics. Although, as for testing whether or not there is a time factor involved in actuall reality, and further yet, whether or not there is infact a difference in velocity of a moving body (particle in this case) when it is compared to the bodies motion of which the test is performed within or on as it achieves its maximum time dialation and velocity in reference to the velocity "DO-ER". There is an unknown velocity existing even at a considered rest when standing on the earth.

 

I would like to hear any comments on the logical theory in this concept. Or, maybe this test has already been performed to see whether or not matter is constrained by some mass-velocity law in the space-time realm, and so should demonstate a accurate estimation of our own so called "REST" velocity here on earth.

[arkain101]

Oh, I thought the edit I made ^^ would bump it but it didnt.

Bump..

Interested in comments.!

[Boerseun]

As far as I can comprehend....If there is a maximum velocity matter can reach in SR mathamatical reasoning, within space-time fabric of the universe, then, there must absolutly be an absolute rest.

The equal maximum achievable velocity in the opposite direction should be according to SR closing its way down towards 0 velocity, correct?

Can someone respond on how logical this sounds?

Expecting a single absolute 'rest' velocity is certainly the intuitive approach.

 

Problem is, with relativity, even if you're cruising along at 99% c, the Michealson/Morley experiment will return the same results, thereby bringing you under the impression that you're at absolute rest. Physical dimensional contraction in the plane in which direction you're heading occurs, as well as time dilation, which is applicable to everything travelling with you - even the light leaving your torch to test the validity of it. So, if you're travelling at 99% c, there'd be now way for you to know that you're coasting along at that speed. All experiments would return the same results as if you were standing still. And for all practical purposes you would be standing still - you won't have anything to measure your velocity against, except for seeing how fast stars are flying past you. In which case you'd be measuring your velocity against those stars, none of whom are standing still to begin with. So how can we determine absolute 'rest'?

 

So, to put it bluntly, there's no way for us to know our absolute velocity, except in relation to some point of reference. And this, of course, will be arbitrary. We can say the Solar System is heading towards the constellation X at a speed of Y, but you can't say it without referring to constellation X. But who's to say what constellation X's velocity is, and then, in relation to what other arbitrary point in space?

 

For all we know we're travelling at 99% c in relation to the point of origin of the Big Bang - but just to make it even more complicated, we're not. We're actually right inside the point of origin. Every single cubic millimetre of space is at the exact point of origin. Since the Big Bang, space has just inflated. So, regarding the point of origin, we're standing dead still. As is the edge of the visible universe, which is barrelling away from us at a fair percentage of c, also standing dead still. But in relation to that point at the edge of the universe, it's standing still, and we're moving away. The Michaelson/Morley experiment would return the same results at both sites.

 

I suppose if space wasn't expanding, an argument could've been made for a definitive rest point. But, seeing as space is expanding, and lightspeed is finite (being 300,000 km/s in all directions, regardless of the velocity of the point of origin), every conceivable point in the universe is slap bang in the centre of the universe for any observer able to make an observation at that point. Only difference is that time will flow differently at seperate sites, and dimensions will contract. But to an observer in that frame of reference, it's impossible to detect.

[arkain101]

So how can we determine absolute 'rest'?

 

Very simply according to how special relativity works. It will either confirm SR and find absolute rest or falsify SR and prove no absolute rest.

 

ps. They've recently performed experiments with fiber optics and have found out how to control the speed of light / electromagnetic radiation. They claim to have sped it up greatly passed C and slowed it down very far below C. I will include the reference later. And how simple it is to find Absolute rest in SR universe.

[Tormod]

They claim to have sped it up greatly passed C and slowed it down very far below C. I will include the reference later. And how simple it is to find Absolute rest in SR universe.

 

This is an extraordinary claim and requires extraordinary proof.

[arkain101]

I have not looked over this entire thing about controling light speed, There might be a catch to this.... Either way, have a look for yourself.

Overview

-From http://www.relativitychallenge.com -

"Recently, several experiments have been performed that suggest that the speed of light can be changed. Many of these experiments have slowed the velocity of light or have stopped it completely, freezing its position in space momentarily. Of course, slowing the speed of light is not an exception of the SRT postulates.

 

Recently, M. Gonzalez-Herraez, K. Song, and L. Thevanaz conducted an experiment where they were able to actively control the speed of light in an optical cable. Not only were they able to slow the light velocity, they were able to increase it well beyond the SRT-based speed limit of 299,792,458 m/s. In fact, they conclude that “slow and fast light…is very promising for a future use in real applications.”

 

This is the scientist's website that includes their paper on the subject.

http://www.opticsexpress.org/abstract.cfm?URI=OPEX-13-1-82

[CraigD]

…They claim to have sped it up greatly passed C and slowed it down very far below C.

I believe you’re referring to experiments involving extreme alterations of the group velocity of an ensemble of photons. This research does not claim or support a claim to have changed the vacuum speed of a photon. See post #78 or post #82 in 1937 for further explanation and links.

[CraigD]

… On the other hand we may find that in a certain direction we only need to fire the particle at .5 C in comparison to the accelertor for the particle to hit the .9999C wall. ...

The idea that SR dictates that any particular fraction of the speed of light is a “wall” or “fine line”, is, I believe, a confusing and false one. See post #19 in 4599 for an illustration.

[arkain101]

Authentic SR experiment in the SR considered Universe.

The object in the middle represents the point of which the test is performed (d). Its velocity is an unknown. But is our rest frame for the experiment. Any object that goes in one of the directions can only go as fast as .9999c with our device, the velocity maximum Vm. So as an object travels down a plane this picture shows we grow a line to its speed and direction on this 2dimensional plane. I cant draw a 3-dimensional graph.

Now on this point ( center - d ) of which the test is performed we send an object (p) in each of the four direction(a, b, c ,d) at our Vm of 0.999999C "for example" (Velocity maximum- Vm -in reference to d).

 

We compare p's velocity constrained, "Vc", with the other directions (we consider that since "d" is at a velocity [earth] but unkown to space (s), that one direction of Vm should verify where a constraint of Vm is detectable in reference to d). After testing a,b,c,d diretions. Vc (constrained velocity total of p in reference to d) should be different on all planes (if d is in motion which it is). Derive the Vc's to consider velocity of d in relation to s (spacetime), and direction of travel in rest frame of s.

 

 

-logically P will go Vc less than C in one direction and Vc greater than C in another direction if d is at a significant velocity in reference to S.-

 

 

 

hopefully to show whether Spacetime constrains matter at a limit, or if the limit is due to the Vm of the device, and to use this data to represent The velocity and direction of d and from there repeat equations to show d's characterists in refernece of absolute rest of s. I am sure I made an error in creating a calculation, but this is more of a description of logic than an proven equation. If SR is true, results should show Vc's. and if so those vc's can break down the direction and Velocity path of d, from there showing V of D and its direction of travel in relation to Space.

If SR is false, results should show No Vc's. and no absolute rest will be necessesary as it may show that V does not exist in relation to space-time, but only to the relationship between to reference frames.