Moments and events

[InfiniteNow]

So this is my first post. Have been watching in the shadows for some time now, and have really enjoyed listening (reading) the discourse. Thanks to each of you for your thoughts. I still have a rep power of zero, and am comfortable with that. I plan to read and think more than comment and answer, but it seemed right to ask a question/make a comment today.

 

It's always right now. Of this I feel certain. What gets me snagged is this discontinuity that comes with "nowness." The "right now" typed moments ago is somehow distinct from all other nows (for example, you reading this thread... a different now), yet somehow also the same.

 

Although interested in each of these, I am neither mathametican nor physicist, philisopher nor religious guru, (perhaps a presentist according to wikipedia) but am certainly a curious individual who likes to hear and listen to the views of others in each of these sects. I learn more about myself by "pinging" ideas off of others and listening for what comes back... like they do on submarines with sound.

 

I really don't entertain the possibility of answering a question such as this, but do appreciate the entertainment of trying. I'd love to hear any one else's thoughts, comments, or explanations of the present.

 

Cheers, and thanks again for sharing. :eek2:

[Tormod]

Welcome to Hypography, InfiniteNow!

 

I am not sure this question belongs here - it is more a philosophical question, although it is related to cosmology in the sense of continuum theories.

 

The sense of the flow of time is a mystery. We have no "real" explanation as to what time is. All human experience tells us that time moves from the past towards the future in a relatively straight path (ie, even flow) but it is very hard to prove that it is so.

 

Good question for a first post. I frankly don't have any good answers to this. :eek2:

[infamous]

Like Tormod, I think that was an excellent first post InfiniteNow. Defining time is a difficult task, I doubt we'll have any really good answers any time soon. BTW, welcome to Hypography.........enjoy

[ldsoftwaresteve]

InfiniteNow:

It's always right now.

lol. And we take it for granted. At least the younger people do. I know I did. Youth has an infinite number of 'right nows' ahead of them. As we get really old like me 'right now' will fold into yesterday faster and faster. And those wonderful moments will become a thing of memory only. And someday, well..

I think I'll go fix a leaky faucet. That is a series of 'nows' I know how to deal with.

[infamous]

Actually, I was just thinking about the title to this thread and realized that an event or a moment is strictly, only a portion of the discription for time. To rationalize the thought of time, one must imagine the passing from one event into another. There are a few quantum physicists that believe that there exists a finite measure for the moment of time. A smallest capsule of time if you will. Ofcourse this theory has not been proven as yet, but it does cause one to ponder the mystries that lie before us in the field of physics..................Infy

[jkellmd]

It's always right now. Of this I feel certain. What gets me snagged is this discontinuity that comes with "nowness." The "right now" typed moments ago is somehow distinct from all other nows (for example, you reading this thread... a different now), yet somehow also the same.

 

I have found this idea to be very prevalent in eastern vedantic spirituality, especially Buddhism. Also, Eckhart Tolle deals with it very effectively, although he draws heavily on these eastern ideas and terminology. You can find his "Power of Now" books everywhere. You can buy (or download) the audiobook versions, read by the author, which are very good as well. Have fun!

[Little Bang]

Infinite, if you have ever seen a waveform on a scope it displays the input event with respect to time. if you pick some spot at the top of the scope CRT and draw a line straight down to the bottom, the line will intersect an input event that occurred at that time. Time is an invention of man that is used as an address to tell us where an event occurred in time.

[InfiniteNow]

Thanks to each of you for your welcome and replies. I am not sure if this is the ideal option, but I will respond to each here.

 

Tormod: I find myself most often visiting threads in Astronomy & Cosmology, that's probably part of the reason it's posted here. Most of us are philisophers in some sense of the word, but not all can speak to the issues of Thermodynamics, Entropy, and arrow of time like the folks here can (referencing the continuum/flow concepts you raised). With hope, others will see the post here and respond with their opinion and insight from whichever branch of science in which they live.

 

Infamous: You mentioned the passing from one event to the other. That's exactly the discontinuity to which I referred. Strangely connected yet somehow parsed. As for the smallest possible measure or unit of time... things that make you go hmmm, indeed. Right now is perhaps that smallest unit, but in it's tinyness it is also so vast and all encompassing. Like a dog chasing it's own tail sometimes... I swear.

 

ldsoftwaresteve: Perhaps the faucet wouldn't leak if there were no time... or maybe it's that there is no time (in the abstract sense) while we are fixing the leak. Who knows, but thanks for the cheer you exhibited in your response. I am not so sure about the "drop in the bucket" concept... what's dropping? in what medium does it drop? what the heck is the bucket a metaphor of? Oyy...

 

jkellmd: I have done a substantial amount of reading into Buddhism as well. What is at the fore of my current thinking with this is how closely these ancient buddhist texts parallel the 20th century writings about quantum mechanics. The whole thing about not being able to observe a system without changing it, particle/wave complimentary... it's neat stuff. Thanks for the suggestion on the book.

 

Little Bang: Thanks for the visual. The whole "invention of man" statement you made applies to so much... What strikes me as most difficult is how definitions of time tend so often to be self-referencing. The waveform idea (the scope visual) reminded me of some interesting work on collapsing waveforms and probability functions. Advances in these fields too will hopefully aid in our understanding of time... but part of me does not feel it will do too much to help us arrive at it's essence.

 

Maybe this post really does belong in philoshophy... :eek2:

 

So far, it's something that flows, a place where we should be, slices of events, and a 4th point allowing us to locate such events (you know where something happened, but to locate it you also need to know when). I like where this snowball is rolling...

 

 

Thanks again. :eek:

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InfiniteNow

[ldsoftwaresteve]

InfiniteNow:

Perhaps the faucet wouldn't leak if there were no time... or maybe it's that there is no time (in the abstract sense) while we are fixing the leak. Who knows, but thanks for the cheer you exhibited in your response. I am not so sure about the "drop in the bucket" concept... what's dropping? in what medium does it drop? what the heck is the bucket a metaphor of? Oyy...

You have a very gentle spirit, but I'd expect that from one who contemplates the moment. Life IS now. We prepare for the next moment by contemplating past moments.

'Now' is:

the tip of the nose of the stallion that races to defend its harem.

the hand of the newborn with eyes squeezed shut that reaches out to touch existence.

the first kiss.

the bleeding edge of life.

meaning.

[coldcreation]

InfiniteNow:You have a very gentle spirit, but I'd expect that from one who contemplates the moment. Life IS now. We prepare for the next moment by contemplating past moments.

'Now' is:

the tip of the nose of the stallion that races to defend its harem.

the hand of the newborn with eyes squeezed shut that reaches out to touch existence.

the first kiss.

the bleeding edge of life.

meaning.

 

Not bad dsoftwaresteve, I feel bad now that for what I just posted in the final theory thread. You have potential. Anyway, there is a test that might be of value.

 

About the subject of this thread, I would simply say that because the speed of light c is limited every event in the universe, when one says now, is in the past. Just look out into the universe and you will see. An event near the nearest star happened four light years ago, etc, etc. That is the nature of a continuum. Recall special relativity. Einstein sitting in the middle of a moving train which is hit by lightning at the front and at the rear simultaneously, yet Einstein saw the light from the front of the train first.

[ldsoftwaresteve]

coldcreation:

Not bad

You're right.

But the person who should get the credit is InfiniteNow for bringing it up in the first place.

Ideas have an event horizon. Once you get past a certain point, it's hard to let it go. (And if they become part of our 'collective consciousness', does that change the nature of our species?)

And the more I think about this one, the more important it gets.

You mentioned The Final Theory, CC....well, one of the reasons that theory makes sense is that it explains 'now'.

'Now' IS the expansion. It is the driver of all actions as well as the perceptions of all those actions. It's the bow of the ship as it cuts through the water and the edge (if there is one) of the universe as it expands into nothingness (if nothingness can be expanded into).

Now has no measure either. It's the smallest interval. It has no components but is a component of all things and all actions.

Now holds existence together. If it is a component of all chemical bonds, well, without it, you have disintegration and entropy. With it, you have integration and you have existence.

[coldcreation]

coldcreation: You're right.

But the person who should get the credit is InfiniteNow for bringing it up in the first place.

Ideas have an event horizon. Once you get past a certain point, it's hard to let it go. (And if they become part of our 'collective consciousness', does that change the nature of our species?)

And the more I think about this one, the more important it gets.

You mentioned The Final Theory, CC....well, one of the reasons that theory makes sense is that it explains 'now'.

'Now' IS the expansion. It is the driver of all actions as well as the perceptions of all those actions. It's the bow of the ship as it cuts through the water and the edge (if there is one) of the universe as it expands into nothingness (if nothingness can be expanded into).

Now has no measure either. It's the smallest interval. It has no components but is a component of all things and all actions.

Now holds existence together. If it is a component of all chemical bonds, well, without it, you have disintegration and entropy. With it, you have integration and you have existence.

 

Wow, what a theory ID. I've never heard you expand like that befor IDS.

Though we disagree on the expansion hypothesis (it is not a theory yet, let alone a final one), we are in agreement on a number of other points. But about the continuum, about the moment called now, I think Einstein was the most acurate in describing it, i.e., the present. It is a relative matter.

 

cc

[ldsoftwaresteve]

ColdCreation:

It is a relative matter.

lol. Yes it is. It depends on where you are.

[InfiniteNow]

Was away from my computer most of this holiday, so wasn't able to follow-up on the posts. Am back.

 

Even our perception of NOW is a perception of the past. I re-read some old books while traveling, and had the following thought:

 

 

Perhaps NOW is the only absolute frame of reference there is.

 

 

I know that according to (our current understanding of) Einstein there is no such thing as an absolute frame of reference, but... Does that statement stir any new ideas/criticisms/agreements for/from anyone else?

 

:)

 

 

 

~~~~~~~~~~~~

InfiniteNow

[ldsoftwaresteve]

InfiniteNow:

I know that according to (our current understanding of) Einstein there is no such thing as an absolute frame of reference, but... Does that statement stir any new ideas/criticisms/agreements for/from anyone else?

Yes. What if there is only now? There might not be any such thing as the past or the future, except in our heads.

The fundamental problem stems from a primary belief that since we can 'know' the past (memory) that it exists outside of ourselves. The same with 'the future'. We can predict it because of our concept of 'past' and our 'understanding' of nature. But existence deals just with now. That's all there is, there ain't no more.

Just NOW. The implications are enormous. Time does not exist as a phenomenon of existence. It only exists in our heads.

You cannot point at anything outside of ourselves that represents 10 minutes ago or 10 minutes into the future. So it is quite likely that neither of those 'things' exist except in our heads.

Perhaps that is behind the fallacy that our consciousness somehow 'creates' reality, existence.

Quite a thread. Thanks, InfiniteNow for bringing it up.

[lindagarrette]

 

 

Perhaps NOW is the only absolute frame of reference there is.

 

 

I know that according to (our current understanding of) Einstein there is no such thing as an absolute frame of reference, but... Does that statement stir any new ideas/criticisms/agreements for/from anyone else?

 

:evil:

 

 

 

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InfiniteNow

What do you mean by "frame of reference?" There has to be a coordinate in time and space that locates a thing. In Superstring Theory, it may take more than one dimensional coordinte. That coordinate exists only in math, however, as there is no "now" we can perceive.

[InfiniteNow]

What do you mean by "frame of reference?"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frame_of_reference

Wanted to avoid limiting what it meant to others to promote newness in ideas, but basically...

 

 

No matter what measurement or calculation one makes, and where/when that event occurs in spacetime, it seems perhaps to be always tied to this concept we communicate as "NOW."

 

Generally am questioning if "NOW" is potentially an absolute perspective (frame of reference) from which all systems (all everything's) are viewed, measured, or whatevered, and want to hear more from others regarding this possibility or others stemming from it.

 

 

 

That coordinate exists only in math, however, as there is no "now" we can perceive.

Can you elaborate... Do you mean that it doesn't exist or we cannot perceive it without some set of Cartesian coordinates? :evil:

I would potentially argue that perception or the mind is the only place where anything exists (including math itself), but want first to better understand what you meant as there's most likely overlap in our opinions.

 

 

Cheers. :evil:

 

 

 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

InfiniteNow