Alternative theories to Big Bang

[Mike C]

Ok, let me try to walk through it with you.

 

The second law of thermodynamics states that in a closed system, entropy increases over time.

You propose a universe which had no beginning. It follows that if there was no beginning, the universe has been in existence for an infinite amount of time.

If your universe follows the second law of thermodynamics, and it has been around for an infinite amount of time, then it follows that the universe has reached a maximum amount of entropy.

 

I don't see how you can not come to that conclusion unless:

1. You don't believe in the 2nd law of thermodynamics.

2. You don't believe the universe is a closed system.

3. You don't use the same definition of entropy as the rest of the world;)

 

The definition of entropy mathematically is 'the amount of 'heat' aborbed divided by the temperature.'

So in a closed system, where is this heat coming from that is absorbed by the syatem that is closed?

This just does not make sense as applied to the universe.

 

I don't believe I did. Can you show me where? Entropy is not the loss of energy. This may be where your misunderstanding is throwing a wrench in the works. Remember, an increase in entropy means a 'loss of energy available to do work'.

 

As applied to the universe, the heat radiated by the stars are, to some extent, absorbed by all the plant life scattered throughout the universe that is cpnverted to growth (work).

The heat absorbed by the inter space matter, can only absorb some and then reradiate it to its surrounding space that does not absorb any heat because it is empty. So this absorbtion of heat is stopped and there is no further heat absorbed.

 

This is about the best I can do to this problem you bring up.

 

Mike C

[Mike C]

If our system is a room that is completely sealed shut to the outside world then we can use the first law to predict that the total energy in that room will stay the same - no matter what is in the room or what happens in the room. So long as it doesn’t interact with the outside world - the total energy stays the same.

 

Using that analogy above in comparison to the universe that is a closed system, yes, the total energy will remain the same in the universe.

 

The second law of thermodynamics tells us more about what will happen in the room. Let’s say the room has a glass of ice water (water with ice in it). The second law says that the only spontaneous actions are the ones accompanied by an increase in total entropy. If we know the temperature of the ice, water, and air in the room as well as the quantity of each then we can calculate what will happen spontaneously and what the total increase in entropy is.

 

I will not do the calculations but the results are what we humans intuitively would guess. The ice melts cooling down the water and the water gets warmed by the air until everything is the same temperature. Temperature is not the only aspect of entropy. We can also predict the water will evaporate which we can calculate is a further increase in the room’s total entropy.

 

Of course, as humans we know from instinct what to expect in the room that is sealed shut. But in the language of physics it is described with the laws of thermodynamics numerically and with certainty.

 

If you put a cup of hot coffee and another cup of cold water in a room and seal it shut what do we expect? What will increase the total entropy of the room? Will the hot coffee give all its energy to the cold water making the temperatures switch? We would then have very cold coffee and very hot water. That would not be an increase in the room’s entropy and would not be something we would predict to happen spontaneously. We would expect the coffee and the water to reach an equilibrium where they both end up the same temperature. That would be an increase in the room’s total entropy.

 

What you have demomstrated above, the various contents will reach the same temperature according to the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics. So now you have a state of equalibrium.

So then there is no more heat 'transfer' Then that would mean that there cannot be any more heat transferred. Does that mean that entropy would equal zero? I would think so.

 

These laws are fundamental to the universe. They are so fundamental that they are an arrow of time. How do you know time is moving forwards and not backwards? - because entropy is increasing. If time suddenly switched and the universe found itself moving in reverse how could we tell? Entropy would then decrease. It is that fundamental.

 

I know, Mike C, that you ignore relativity, fusion in stars, quarks, and other things in mainstream science - so I’m sure you will not have trouble ignoring entropy. But, what you describe as our universe is against the laws of entropy. Stars don’t transfer energy between each other endlessly any more than the coffee switches temperature with the cold water. Eventually everything would end up the same temperature. In an infinitely old universe, this should have happened already.

 

-modest

 

I do not ignore 'fusion' in stars. I have said on other posts that 90-95% of the energy comes from the stars.

The universe is composed of just two fundamental particles and they are

the electron and the proton.

These are the ONLY particles that can exist in isolation. All other elements/particles are just fused components of these two particles.

 

Your idea that stars do not transfer energy from one to another can also be applied to two cups of coffee at the same temperatures that will not transfer any energy between the cups.

 

Mike C

[HydrogenBond]

Entropy experiments, such as an expansion of gas, are endothermic. The increased entropy absorbs energy. This increased degree of freedom in the gas requires energy input to take affect. If we compress the gas to reduce entropy, heat is generated. So if the entropy of the universe is increasing it needs an energy source. Gravity might provide some of this energy since every time it brings a cloud of stella gas into a star, the entropy of that original gas has to lower. This will be exothermic. If there was no gravity entropy would hit a wall if there is no energy to express it. Gravity keeps a fresh supply of energy coming by taking it away from high entropy clouds and making it available for other entropy.

 

The idea of thermal equilibration is also more complicated. For example, say I had a piece of potassium metal at 300C and I place it into a bucket of water. If we assume inert, the final water-metal should be at 90C. But these two things are not inert. Rather the energy in the potassium will cause the water to boil such that steady state will 100C and steam.

 

This is what we get with hydrogen. A cloud of hydrogen can be close to absolute zero. In this state its impact on the thermal energy balance is a non event. We apply gravity and take away the entropy, the temperature starts to increase. Fusion of hydrogen, like adding potassium, will cause the heat output to get even higher. On the surface, the energy in the hydrogen cloud seems small until force acts on it. Then hidden energy or potential energy is released that will not initially show up thermally.

 

Here is an analogy. I have a 4 liter can of gasoline. I warm it in the sun and then use it to warm my feet. Its thermal capacity may last a few hours. But if I was clever, I burn it slowly so I am able to keep my feet warm for several days. The gas is the potential energy we ignore. If the universe gets to cold we merely burn some of its store of gasoline to make more energy out of its cold storage mode call mass.

[HydrogenBond]

This popped into my head. Based on basic observations gravity is more effective at colder temperature. This is not to say gravity changes with temperature, but rather less temperature means less resistance. For example, if we shut off the sun's fusion, gravity could do much better in terms of solar compaction.

 

What this suggests is a cooling universe can increase the effectiveness of the universe's gravity. If you look at entropy, extreme cold makes it harder for matter to gain entropy since there is less energy to absorb to allow further entropy increase. Low or limiting entropy is also going to make gravity's job easier.

 

Once gravity is able to become more affective at lower temperature, the result is going to be heat, especially if fusion occurs. The affect is, although the local gravity has already closed the deal, it is making it harder for other aspects other gravity. It is providing energy to increase entropy. The net affect of the expanding universe may be the quickest conversion of mass back into energy with the gravity effectiveness boost allowing fusion to occur with higher reliability.

 

One could do this from the entropy side, with an expansion requiring the entropy to increase. Since the expansion is accelerating then the entropy energy requirement is going up. This implies things are cooling faster and faster for more effective gravity turn-around. This in turn, allows increasing mass burn via fusion, to provide more energy output to help fuel the energy requirement of the accelerating entropy. It is sort of a chicken and the egg, with which is actually coming first. The net affect appears to be the fastest way for the universe to convert cold energy(mass) into energy.