Abstruce Posted January 9, 2006 Report Posted January 9, 2006 Let me re-phrase my question, being my last attempt to address it was moved somewhere else. This is a simple Philosophical question about the Humanities. Is it necessary for the Government of any Country to lie to it's citizens? Can people of the would handle the total truth? I argue that when censorship and deception are at work the Government is not Governing it is manipulating.:hihi: Quote
Tormod Posted January 9, 2006 Report Posted January 9, 2006 Can people of the would handle the total truth? What do you mean by "total truth"? Quote
Buffy Posted January 9, 2006 Report Posted January 9, 2006 Two points:It is indeed sometimes in the government's interest to lie because it is in the people's interest for the government to lie. This is what national security is all about. There has to be oversight of this--as our current debate as to why the President should be allowed to do anything he sees fit without oversight based on certain phrases in the Constitution--or it becomes a mechanism to hide government malfeasance or corruption or other abuse of power.Governments are really not very good at keeping secrets unless the people who hold them universally agree that its in the public interest to do so. Ownership of secrets changes over time, and eventually if there is not good public interest in keeping them, they will get out. National security secrets do tend to last a long time. Coverups of political corruption rarely last very long at all. UFOs? Given the number of people in power who have expressed the desire to get the information, were it to exist, it would get out pretty darn quick. Skeptically,Buffy niviene 1 Quote
Tarantism Posted January 9, 2006 Report Posted January 9, 2006 there are two instances where the government tells lies: corrupt lies about what is actually going on in the white house, and then the little white lies that are told to keep people from freaking out. the latter i think is nessesary becuase if everyone knew every threat that faced them each and every day, they would freak out. society would just stop functioning because of severe paranoia(sp). i believe that when we are not told about certain threats, and then they are kept secret, the government can hire the nessesary people to take care of these unknown problems without anyone being any the wiser. not a bad wrap. then again, the secret scams that the white house runs are intolerable, and one of the reasons that i want to leave the united states. *sails away. Quote
infamous Posted January 9, 2006 Report Posted January 9, 2006 then again, the secret scams that the white house runs are intolerable, and one of the reasons that i want to leave the united states. *sails away.Sooooooooooo, where would you go to find a government that doesn't run scams on it's citizenry? Tarantism 1 Quote
Tarantism Posted January 9, 2006 Report Posted January 9, 2006 haha what a good point. i cant! how sad! Quote
Buffy Posted January 9, 2006 Report Posted January 9, 2006 Sooooooooooo, where would you go to find a government that doesn't run scams on it's citizenry?Norway! At least as long as the Labour Party is in power! :hihi: Libertine,Buffy Quote
TheBigDog Posted January 9, 2006 Report Posted January 9, 2006 Do you prefer a party in power who believes that truth is is relative, so there is is actually no such thing as a lie? Bill Quote
infamous Posted January 9, 2006 Report Posted January 9, 2006 Norway! At least as long as the Labour Party is in power! :hihi: Libertine,BuffyNow that's what I call real faith . Quote
Buffy Posted January 10, 2006 Report Posted January 10, 2006 Do you prefer a party in power who believes that truth is is relative, so there is is actually no such thing as a lie?Those who live in the reality-based community prefer stuff that is "facty" rather than "truthy" :hihi: That would be telling,Buffy Quote
C1ay Posted January 10, 2006 Report Posted January 10, 2006 Is it necessary for the Government of any Country to lie to it's citizens? Can people of the would handle the total truth?1. Yes2. No Quote
niviene Posted January 10, 2006 Report Posted January 10, 2006 Can people handle the total truth? Most people can't even handle knowing that the people we elect are actually people with all the personal problems and quirks everyone else has, no matter how good a job they do in office? You can see how fickle things like the stock market are - on the tiniest amount of news, lives are changed... Imagine what things would be like if we let a reputable media source report about a real UFO sighting with actual footage or a pic or two. People would go nuts. Some would simply riot, thinking the end is near; some would kill themselves or everyone else; some would picket, saying the paper shouldn't be allowed to say such things (as it violates the first amendment protections since it incites rioting)... What would happen to religious persons? Think of the effects that reporting something like that would have. Think of the people you come into contact on a daily basis and how they would react if CNN started reporting that round the clock like they did with Katrina and the Tsunami. It's the kind of thing that makes me want to make a cave somewhere up north with supplies in it so that I can go live there when people hear it... No, I guess you could say I do not think people could handle all the truths all the time. I do think the media is a good part of our checks and balances though in keeping certain people in line and letting people know when things are happening, with our leaders, with our government, with our neighbors. But there are certain things that sort of "fit" within the spectrum of what people can tolerate knowing. If the world were going to explode tomorrow for some crazy reason, would you make the decision to tell everyone, or let them live out their last day in relative peace? Imagine what the last hours would be like if you did tell everyone. I know that's a harsh comparison to use, but it sends a strong message, in my opinion - people just can't handle some things. The government needs to be a cushion there and kind of determine what things are beyond that spectrum. I do sometimes feel like they have gone a little too far, and that "coddling" people isn't exactly a good idea, either - but they do need to be there, to some degree. As to things like the president having a mistress or sleeping with goats, well, I could care less, as long as he does his job and stops making us look like morons by making up words (among the milder things...) Strategery. Buffy 1 Quote
Buffy Posted January 10, 2006 Report Posted January 10, 2006 Can people handle the total truth? Most people can't even handle knowing that the people we elect are actually people with all the personal problems and quirks everyone else has, no matter how good a job they do in office? Heh, heh. I'd agree that people would have trouble handling it, but ya know, that'd just be Social Darwinism at work! We've had some similar doom stories related to asteroids on collision courses, and my feeling is that people just tune it out (do you realize how many people don't even listen to the news *at all*?). My biggest problem with what you're saying is that I don't think the folks in Government are *capable* of making these kinds of decisions, and given what we've seen recently with what's been justified in the name of the "war on terror" its not too much of a stretch to see someone deciding that a potential asteroid strike would be a good justification for delivering cyanide to every American in a program portrayed as bird flu vaccine: "Just drink the Kool-Aid and go in the back there...." Okay, it is paranoid rambling and we have enough of that around here, but its still a logical extrapolation.... A lot of what we're dancing around here is that people have faith in government in so far as their party is in power: If you really want the government to have a certain power, ask yourself if you'd be just as happy for them to have that power if the *other* party were in control.... Conservativism used to mean small government,Buffy ldsoftwaresteve 1 Quote
Abstruce Posted January 10, 2006 Author Report Posted January 10, 2006 What do you mean by "total truth"? No Lies to the citizens. Total accountability. Now there is a difference between keeping secrets and lying. Should the government lie to keep a secret? Let us say that the Government might have knowledge about something that may interrupt the theological beliefs of its Citizens. Now the Government holds this information as a secret, otherwise lying by omission. They are making decisions from information not available to the Citizens. Is it moral for the Government to make decisions at the sociological and philosophical level because of their own fears, in order to keep intact their personal ideology?:hihi: Quote
Abstruce Posted January 10, 2006 Author Report Posted January 10, 2006 Norway! At least as long as the Labour Party is in power! :hihi: Libertine,Buffy I was going to say Belgium Quote
Buffy Posted January 10, 2006 Report Posted January 10, 2006 Is it moral for the Government to make decisions at the sociological and philosophical level because of their own fears, in order to keep intact their personal ideology?:hihi:I don't think so either. That's getting into a *real* violation of the Establishment clause! But how about "how to make nerve gas?" Should the government be required to publish that? its not "total truth" if they keep it a secret! How about "plans to find and capture Osama?" Should that be a secret? Should the government be able to lie to keep it a secret? Is it okay for them to actually issue disinformation in order to effect the plan? Melvillian,Buffy Quote
Abstruce Posted January 10, 2006 Author Report Posted January 10, 2006 Do you prefer a party in power who believes that truth is is relative, so there is is actually no such thing as a lie? Bill Truly if people are to govern themselves, how could it benefit the people to lie to themselves?:hihi: . Quote
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