Government Lies

[C1ay]

Truly if people are to govern themselves, how could it benefit the people to lie to themselves?:hihi: .

There are some times when the truth would cause a large panic and many deaths and injuries would result in the mayhem. Would it be beneficial to do this or to sugar coat the truth with white lies and reduce potential harm?

[Abstruce]

No, I guess you could say I do not think people could handle all the truths all the time.

 

The ideals which have always shone before me and filled me with the joy of living are goodness, beauty and truth.

 

To make a goal of comfort or happiness has never appealed to me; a system of ethics built on this basis would be sufficient only for a herd of cattle.

 

The most incomprehensible thing about the world is that it is comprehensible.

 

We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them.

 

We shall require a substantially new manner of thinking if mankind is to survive.

 

Whoever is careless with the truth in small matters cannot be trusted with important matters.:hihi:

[pgrmdave]

If a government has to lie to save the lives of people (disinformation in time of war) or to keep people calm during a crisis ("Don't panic, we have it all under control") then it is acceptable, at least in my opinion. However, there are many grey areas where it is not always obvious whether or not lying is necessary. I would prefer that governments err on the side of telling the truth to the people, but I do think that governments need to lie on occasions.

[Abstruce]

There are some times when the truth would cause a large panic and many deaths and injuries would result in the mayhem. Would it be beneficial to do this or to sugar coat the truth with white lies and reduce potential harm?

 

The foundation of morality should not be made dependent on myth nor tied to any athority lest doubt about the myth or about the legitimacy of the authority imperil the foundation of sound judgment and action.

 

I do not believe any lies can prevent harm, If you need to lie the harm has already been done,

 

Lies mostly create harm.:hihi:

[niviene]

The ideals which have always shone before me and filled me with the joy of living are goodness, beauty and truth.

 

To make a goal of comfort or happiness has never appealed to me; a system of ethics built on this basis would be sufficient only for a herd of cattle....

 

I guess I missed the point of this vague response (I assume) to what you quoted from my earlier post.... That is, "huh?"

[Abstruce]

I guess I missed the point of this vague response (I assume) to what you quoted from my earlier post.... That is, "huh?"

 

Actually, these are quotes by AE and I was just trying to see if anyone would notice. I considered them appropriate.

 

What I am trying to say is that an informed society can handle the truth about everything.

 

I do not believe that we should allow the Government to lie to us. For we are not Cattle we are Human.

 

If there is a great Burdon to bare and the truth will not be told, how do we face our challenges if we do know they exist?

[questor]

we know the goverment lies, usually for good reason. we also know that people lie, frequently for dubious reasons, we know that most government lies are found out sooner or later, can you think of any government lies that have hurt you or your family?

[Tarantism]

im actually starting to agree with abstruce on this one. at the start of this thread i stated that i thought that in some cases it was nessesary for the government to lie on some acoounts...i have infact changed my mind. he is correct in saying that we are not cattle, we are human, and the more i think about it the more degrading it feels to be seen as cattle. i am not stupid. i dont go through my life craving useless possestions, or at least not as bad as some other humans. infact, i make a point not to.

 

the more i look at everything under the microscope, the more i see that it is all based on half-truths and downright lies. in everything. if you really think about it, we are taught, from birth, that the government is doing the right thing, it is so had to question something that you have been trained to think since birth. such a strange and manipulative game the government plays.

[Abstruce]

we know the goverment lies, usually for good reason. we also know that people lie, frequently for dubious reasons, we know that most government lies are found out sooner or later, can you think of any government lies that have hurt you or your family?

 

Sure, Lies about weapons of Mass Destruction that did not exist.:P

 

How about the young men and women dying today in Irac?:lol:

[Abstruce]

im actually starting to agree with abstruce on this one. at the start of this thread i stated that i thought that in some cases it was nessesary for the government to lie on some acoounts...i have infact changed my mind. he is correct in saying that we are not cattle, we are human, and the more i think about it the more degrading it feels to be seen as cattle. i am not stupid. i dont go through my life craving useless possestions, or at least not as bad as some other humans. infact, i make a point not to.

 

the more i look at everything under the microscope, the more i see that it is all based on half-truths and downright lies. in everything. if you really think about it, we are taught, from birth, that the government is doing the right thing, it is so had to question something that you have been trained to think since birth. such a strange and manipulative game the government plays.

Yes, I am correct in this mater and thank you for seeing this important revelation.

 

If we are in fact to Govern ourselves in a free world, then it is paramount that we do not lie to ourselves.

 

Or allow any leaders to lie to their citizens.:lol:

 

All Government is representation, extension of it's citizens and not separate of the citizens.

 

Hitler is a good example of what happens when leaders lie.

 

Governmental Lying to the public is manipulation, by the few of the masses and can not be tolerated.

 

I repeat, there no valid basis what so ever, for a Government to lie to its citzens.

[bumab]

There's also the difference between a lie, an error, and an omission. The government doesn't tell everyone about every little threat to avoid mass panic- omission. The government miscalculates what weapons a certain country has and goes to war- an error. The government invents weapons to go to war- a lie.

 

Depending on your persuasion, an omission can be a lie can be an error.

 

Liar Liar pants on fire! :rainbow:

[Tarantism]

Liar Liar pants on fire! :rainbow:

 

absolutely.:rainbow:

[TIDUSGIYA]

What do you mean by "total truth"?

 

full truth

[ldsoftwaresteve]

Originally Posted by Abstruce

Truly if people are to govern themselves, how could it benefit the people to lie to themselves? .

Well, my take on the discussion about lying is that the biggest fib is believing that people should govern themselves - sorry Abstruce, even though you make a good point about people shouldn't want to lie to themselves.

I want a system not a group of people governing me and mine. That's because I want it to be consistent, the same tomorrow that it is today and not subject to the whims of a majority who saw something on Oprah and now want 'action!'. :eek:

Nor do I want 'special interests' changing the rules so....

I want the function of government cut down to bare essentials. Food on my table and a roof over my head is not an essential governmental function. Nor is health care. Nor is licensing. I want the government totally out of the economy as that is the source of 99.9 % of the corruption of every governmental system in the world today.

The way ebay handles the reputation of a seller seems a very efficient way of handling many of the issues involved in licensing. The internet and the tools available to make a person's professional skills (or lack thereof) visible seems to me to be a much more efficient way of handling 'licensing'.

So many fallacies to overcome. This is becoming a rant, sorry.

Here's another fallacy: "The people over there have a different culture and could never understand the way we live". (My mother said this! :) I still love her but man...)

The truth is that the people that matter (the common folk like me and you) just want to be able to wake up in the morning, be productive, attain what they need for their happiness and be left alone.

My happiness is not based upon being able to control others, quite the opposite. And people whose lives revolve around manipulation of others and control of others are not right in the head. Because those are the ones that lie.

[Pyrotex]

...people whose lives revolve around manipulation of others and control of others are not right in the head. Because those are the ones that lie.

Those are the only ones that NEED to lie. :eek:

[Abstruce]

Well, my take on the discussion about lying is that the biggest fib is believing that people should govern themselves - sorry Abstruce, even though you make a good point about people shouldn't want to lie to themselves..

 

According to the U.S. Constitution we are a government by the people for the people or vise versa. Yet this is very far from reality. We are the people governed by the special interest groups, to benefit special interest groups, this is reality. Is this capitalistic, or corruption?

 

I want a system not a group of people governing me and mine. That's because I want it to be consistent, the same tomorrow that it is today and not subject to the whims of a majority who saw something on Oprah and now want 'action!'. :hyper:.

 

So If I understand you correctly, we could build robots to do the governing, just like we use them to build cars. Interesting, it just might work.:)

 

I want the function of government cut down to bare essentials. Food on my table and a roof over my head is not an essential governmental function. Nor is health care. .

 

Well then, you must not be poor? Go find a poor (financially challenged) person, walk a few hundred miles in their shoes. You will soon realize, why many do rely on our government for basics (who will help them? If not the government?).

 

I want the government totally out of the economy as that is the source of 99.9 % of the corruption of every governmental system in the world today..

 

Our economy is the government, you can not have one without the other.:confused:

 

The way ebay handles the reputation of a seller seems a very efficient way of handling many of the issues involved in licensing. The internet and the tools available to make a person's professional skills (or lack thereof) visible seems to me to be a much more efficient way of handling 'licensing'.

So many fallacies to overcome. This is becoming a rant, sorry.

Here's another fallacy: "The people over there have a different culture and could never understand the way we live". (My mother said this! :smile: I still love her but man...).

 

You lost me here, not sure what e-bay has to do with licensing?

 

The truth is that the people that matter (the common folk like me and you) just want to be able to wake up in the morning, be productive, attain what they need for their happiness and be left alone.

 

This is a socialistic view, I favor capitalism.

 

My happiness is not based upon being able to control others, quite the opposite. And people whose lives revolve around manipulation of others and control of others are not right in the head. Because those are the ones that lie.

 

Everyone lies, sadly this is fact, we do need leaders, without leaders, followers are lost. This is another sad but true fact.

 

If you see a child crossing the street into on coming traffic and you grab the child, stopping the child from getting hit by a car, are you not manipulating the child? Are you not controlling the child? Control and manipulation are double edge swords, depends on who's hands they are in and the intent thereof. JQ

[ldsoftwaresteve]

Abstruce:

According to the U.S. Constitution we are a government by the people for the people or vise versa. Yet this is very far from reality. We are the people governed by the special interest groups, to benefit special interest groups, this is reality. Is this capitalistic, or corruption?

Corruption. It is NOT Capitalism although we blame capitalism for it. If we provide huge benefits for being corrupt, then we should never expect anything but corruption. The system needs to be fair and if the practice is valid (letting the government control the economy is a 'practice') safeguards can be automated. If it isn't valid, then it will become corrupted.

Well then, you must not be poor? Go find a poor (financially challenged) person, walk a few hundred miles in their shoes. You will soon realize, why many do rely on our government for basics (who will help them? If not the government?).

lol. Abstruce, I grew up poor. You walk a mile in their shoes, I already have. When you mandate generosity, you destroy it. In other words, caring for others is taken out of your hands and you assume it is handled by 'the government'. Mandated means you can stop thinking about it. Free people are the most generous folks on the planet. Shackled people are not.

Look at the typical family today. When I was a child only one parent worked. Today, people starting out cannot afford an apartment on their own and almost always have to have roommates. Research how much of your monthly outlay has taxes hidden behind it. Taxes meant to provide for the financially challenged. Those taxes have made all of us financially challenged. Nice friggin solution.

Our economy is the government, you can not have one without the other.

I suspect you learned that in school. I rest my case for a total review of the efficacy of public education.

You lost me here, not sure what e-bay has to do with licensing?

Licensing is one of the fallacies we live beneath. It is meant to protect us from folks performing a service which they are not qualified to perform. Licensing can be replaced with a methodology that provides an easy way to give feedback on the quality of the product or service being provided by an entity. ebay provides a way to give feedback on a seller and what I've seen is that sellers bend over backwards to make purchasers happy. This could be a whole different thread.

 

Originally Posted by ldsoftwaresteve

The truth is that the people that matter (the common folk like me and you) just want to be able to wake up in the morning, be productive, attain what they need for their happiness and be left alone.

 

Abstruce:

This is a socialistic view, I favor capitalism.

lol. ;) My friend, I am the most dyed-in-the-wool capitalist you have ever came in contact with. Does the term 'leave us alone' or 'hands off' ring any bells? But I consider myself a common man. I suspect that my image of the 'common man' is radically different than yours. The common man is who makes the world go around. They show up every day. They take pride in what they do. They worship happiness and quality and love kittens and babies and puppies. Some of them are very wealthy too. Revisit your concept of Capitalism and Socialism.

A socialist, in my mind, is a person who pictures themselves 'above' the common man. They want to rule others. They need society to have leaders and followers (and guess where they put themselves). And they want a free ride provided by someone else. The term, 'parasite' comes to mind.

Everyone lies, sadly this is fact, we do need leaders, without leaders, followers are lost. This is another sad but true fact.

lol. If everyone lies, then how do I know that this is a true statement? And how does that relate to leaders? I assume that leaders are part of 'everyone'?

If you see a child crossing the street into on coming traffic and you grab the child, stopping the child from getting hit by a car, are you not manipulating the child? Are you not controlling the child? Control and manipulation are double edge swords, depends on who's hands they are in and the intent thereof. JQ

Children are adults in training. Please be serious. There are adults who want someone to follow. They do not, however, require it. And it should not be a governmental function to provide that to them at the expense of those who do not need it.