Meritocracy or Mediocracy?

[questor]

which is best for a society? is it best to educate all kids together so the slow can hold back the quick, or should we have different tracks geared to ability?

should all teachers be paid equally by tenure or should they be paid by ability and degree? should we extol and reward excellence and effort, or should we try to ''level the playing field'' ? what should be done with the lazy, the non-producers, the bad attitudes? should we just accept them as they are or should we try to light their fire? what would happen if we, as a nation, set out to demand everyone to be the best they can be and challenge their excuses for non-performance? what if we became more critical and judgemental? for example, what possible societal benefits do we get from the Hip Hop, Rap, thug culture? why are we reluctant to call this cancer what it really is? do we want a better country or do we just want to sit back and accept garbage as something we should live with? is our country heading

for merit or mediocracy?

[otcartsid]

Questor, I respect you for your being so open with your opinions and more importantly for raising interesting questions.

 

I have to disagree with you about your opinion on the hip hop, rap, thug culture. I dont think it's cancer at all. These types of music reflect a different society so I think that in itself can be an important benefit. I myself actually like the music and there are others like me too :rolleyes: Music is another language and it even helps provide entertainment for the mudaneness of everyday life. So yeah I actually think being immersed in a little bit of thug culture can prevent you from going out and seeking more "bad" excitement.

 

I think it would be hard to pay teachers based on their ability. How would you judge that?

 

I think both ways of teaching kids have their advantages. The slow dont necessarily have to hold back the quick...the best learners often make the best teachers but I understand that people often want friends close to their own intelligence.

 

I see no point in not rewarding excellence.

 

Im not sure how people can light the fire for others. It seems like people have to find their own motivations. We should accept the fact that they (the less productive) arent motivated by money, other people's praise, etc and try to help them find what they are passionate about.

[questor]

Otcart, please give me some examples of the advantages of hip hop culture. is it the baggy pants, baseball caps on backwards, dirty songs about killing people, drugs at concerts, getting it on sexually? tell me how this appeals to someone who wants to live a clean life and get a good education? give me a few of the good things.

 

teachers need to be periodically tested as to their level of keeping up with continuing education in their field, effectiveness in their classroom, relationships with their students and quality of their ability. this would affect their salaries.

we can't MAKE people be better, but we can offer them a chance to make themselves better.

[otcartsid]

when I think of hip hop culture I think pf people trying to get rich (especially people who have come from poverty). This is a type of motivation in my opinion. I also associate this culture with confidence which is a very important trait. The music can help people become less uptight and teach people to respect others living a different life (what really is so wrong about baggy pants and backwards baseaball caps?!? :P)

Anyway there is also positive messages in some of the music. One of my favourite artists would be Nas who is famous for his self-empowering rap! You may feel more comfortable with Alicia Keys who only gives a hint of her hip hop side. In my opinion, she is one classy lady :lol:

[Erasmus00]

teachers need to be periodically tested as to their level of keeping up with continuing education in their field, effectiveness in their classroom, relationships with their students and quality of their ability. this would affect their salaries.

we can't MAKE people be better, but we can offer them a chance to make themselves better.

 

We hardly pay teachers anything now. Where are you going to get this money to create pay raises?

 

If we paid teachers as much as doctors, and had the same sort of competative screening process, obviously we'd raise the bar a bit. The question then is, where do we get the money?

-Will

[TheBigDog]

I think there is a difference between "hip-hop" and "thug". "Thug" is the music that embraces and promotes anti-social behaviors of all sorts as being some height of personal achievement worthy of hero worship. Any genre can produce quality and there is certainly quality music in the hip-hop arena. What is disturbing about "Hip-Hop" is how it embraces the "thug mentality, until the two are intertwined to be the same thing. Would you support a porn movie being nominated for best dramatic actor? Would you want children's movies and horror movies racked together at the video store? There is an element of common sense on most issues like this that gets thrown right out the window when it comes to hip-hop and the surrounding culture. It want to turn everything on its head for no better reason than "You can't tell me not to!". Good people are bad, bad people are revered, evil is inevitable, justice is taken not given. You cannot sprinkle in a couple of do-gooders and justify the the whole thing as selectively mis perceiving the art. How much feces can you put into a cup of coffee before it becomes undrinkable? Yes, there may be otherwise delicious coffee in there, but come on!

 

As for teachers and excellence. It is up to parents to take control. Organize, control the spending, and get the results. Don't let the educational institution lose sight of its primary purpose. It is not there to provide jobs to teachers. It is there to help parents educate their children. Maintain measurable goals and standards. Reward success. Demand excellence. Today we ease requirements to help the less capable. We reward mediocrity for participating. And we demand that kids feel comfortable with themselves. It is self evident how that is working. Some people who are self driven will buck even the worst system, but you cannot keep defecating on them or they too will quit.

 

Ellsworth Monkton Toohey was the most evil literary villain of all time. Read "The Fountainhead" if you want to understand good and evil in society.

 

Bill

[otcartsid]

Webenton, you make some good points. Of course, I can't defend all the crap that is out there and I feel that you are right about how it can be scary when the good is mixed with the bad but still I feel that people shouldn't judge the hip-hop and even thug cultures as harshly as they do.

I just feel that things should be "turned on their heads" once in awhile. Life seems to be about perspective so people should look at things from different angles. I've only been around for 21 years but Ive already learned that good people are bad too.

[TheBigDog]

Webenton, you make some good points. Of course, I can't defend all the crap that is out there and I feel that you are right about how it can be scary when the good is mixed with the bad but still I feel that people shouldn't judge the hip-hop and even thug cultures as harshly as they do.

I just feel that things should be "turned on their heads" once in awhile. Life seems to be about perspective so people should look at things from different angles. I've only been around for 21 years but Ive already learned that good people are bad too.

otcartsid, you realize that you are advocating a culture that is based upon disrespect. Yet you are telling me that you think people should be open minded about respecting and tolerating that culture?!? Huh? Please let me know what the merits of "Thug" culture are. If there is benefit, let me know.

 

Bill

[otcartsid]

Bill, I agree with your opinion that "Thug" culture is based on disrespect but I dont feel that makes it a reason for it to be disrespected.

 

It's just my opinion that everyone (and every culture) deserves to be treated with respect. I also think that alot of disrespectful people got that way from their anger abour being disrespected so I suppose I may even take pity on disrespectful people.

 

The first merit that comes to my mind is that this form of music gives people an outlet to vent. Getting out rage in a somewhat artistic way has to be helpful to the person.

 

Music is entertainment and I think that in itself can be a source of merit.

 

I also think it's important to learn about other people's lives. Not everyone is a nice person so it's important for naively optimistic people to know this!

[TheBigDog]

Howdy again otcartsid! I am going to look at this point by point.

Bill, I agree with your opinion that "Thug" culture is based on disrespect but I dont feel that makes it a reason for it to be disrespected.

The notion that people should be respected for being disrespectful is twisted. I respect them in that I know to avoid them.

It's just my opinion that everyone (and every culture) deserves to be treated with respect. I also think that alot of disrespectful people got that way from their anger abour being disrespected so I suppose I may even take pity on disrespectful people.

All culture deserve to be treated with respect? OK, how about Christian culture that preaches against thug culture? How about the underworld culture of child pornography? How about the Neo-Nazi movement? How about South American cattle culture clear cutting rain forest? How about the culture of big oil? How about the Republican Party? The Democratic Party? Communists? Respect is a commodity that must be earned. I will grant the benefit of the doubt that people are good and deserving of respect. But at signs of trouble I retract the offer. If I am not part of a person's motive for being disrespectful and they are disrespecful to me, then it is over.

The first merit that comes to my mind is that this form of music gives people an outlet to vent. Getting out rage in a somewhat artistic way has to be helpful to the person.

I am with you that this is a form of music, but the primary benefit of that is to vent rage? OK, that is fine therapy for the person venting, but are you saying that music is the fine line between this person and some more violent expressoni of that same rage? Does the rage never end? How about getting on with life.

Music is entertainment and I think that in itself can be a source of merit.

Yes. But it is still **** in the coffee cup. Think about the content, agenda and implication of the music in question.

I also think it's important to learn about other people's lives. Not everyone is a nice person so it's important for naively optimistic people to know this!

So it is educational. There are no other outlets in the world to tell us that people have problems? Or to educate us about those problems. I guess zoos would be out of the question. As long as there are neiborhoods, there will be neiborhoods to avoid. What is wrong with avoiding problems? Why should the criminal ramifications of a troubled portion of society become something to market and admire? The solution is not to put more **** in the coffe until everyone is say "I guess this ain't so bad afterall, kinda nutty". You don't let **** into your coffee.

 

Enjoy the music! I am going to listen to some primal scream therapy sessions now and then maybe watch a snuff film before bed. Nothing like art to free the soul!

 

Bill

[otcartsid]

Hi again Bill!

 

I'm thinking you were using "Nothing like art to free the soul!" as sarcasm but it is so true. Why should it matter how people spend their free time (as long as it's not hurting anyone?)

 

When I said that every person and culture should be respected, I didn't necessarily mean appreciated and worshipped. I do in fact believe that avoiding (as in avoiding violation or interference with) is a form of respect!

 

I will not get into your examples of different culture as to tell you the truth I dont feel that I know enough about them. I suppose I can understand your opinion that respect is a commodity that must be earned but I just dont agree with it. I feel that respect can be given freely. Sure you dont want to treat people nicely if they are going to walk all over you but you dont have to sink to their level and treat them like crap either.

 

I dont feel that music necessarily is a fine line between this person and some more violent expression. I do think it may prevent some people from more extreme expressions of anger though. Im not sure what you meant by asking does the rage never end? But yeah I agree with you that alot of people's issues could be solved by them just getting on with life.

 

Sometimes there is something wrong with avoiding problems but I would say you are right that there can also be something wrong with marketing and admiring the criminal raminifactions of a troubled portion of society.

 

Hmmm alot of this is just about perception (taste). People are gonna have their own defintion for "****"

[TheBigDog]

re·spect ( P ) Pronunciation Key (r-spkt)

tr.v. re·spect·ed, re·spect·ing, re·spects

To feel or show deferential regard for; esteem.

To avoid violation of or interference with: respect the speed limit.

To relate or refer to; concern.

 

n.

A feeling of appreciative, often deferential regard; esteem.The state of being regarded with honor or esteem.

Willingness to show consideration or appreciation.

respects Polite expressions of consideration or deference: pay one's respects.

A particular aspect, feature, or detail: In many respects this is an important decision.

Am I missing someting in the definition?

 

otcartsid, the gap in our opinions on this are never going to close until you have a dramatic change of core values. That is not a dig, it is a fact of the human condition. A portion of this is about taste. But most of it is around values. You must define some absolutes for society to survive. Unless someone makes a hell of a case for anarchy I am going to strenthen society. That means recognizing boudaries of right and wrong, good and bad, and enforcing those boundaries justly and fairly. Counter-culture and anti-establishment diversions have a place in that society, and but not at the cost of the values that define the mutual repect and boundaries we all enjoy as participating member of that society.

 

Want a good read? How about "Common Sense" by Thomas Paine. You will find that none of this is new.

 

Later dude!

 

Bill

[otcartsid]

I kinda feel bad for taking over this thread...just in the hopes that I can defend "thug" culture a little bit.

 

I do agree with you, Bill. Our going back and forth wont do much to change our opinions but I just want to say that, even though you seem to think otherwise, I do place a high value on respect. I like to think of myself as a respectful person (I appreciate people, try to relate to them and most importantly do not disrespect them)

 

Alright Im going to have to check out this "Common Sense" book. Ive heard of it before and I think it may already be on my reading list. I also want to read "The Fountainhead".

 

 

Susan

[questor]

to call Rap music is a stretch. it is ugly in sound and lyrics, and just shows the degradation that the thug culture has. this is the culture that despises

education, police, morality, and all authority and praises,drugs, prostitution, shootings and disrespect. there is nothing here to respect, and there is nothing here that helps society.

[InfiniteNow]

So many post-ers in this thread speak of the evils of rap and hip-hop and thug culture because they are so hateful and disrespectful, when they are exhibiting the EXACT same behaviors here, against which they are speaking so strongly. Seriously... take a deep breath and look in the mirror. It's disturbing how much this resembles an unconscious tendency toward racism and segregation, which for several has probably been so repressed and inwardly shunned to the point where it leaks out without notice in discussions such as this.

 

Centuries ago, music was wantenous and made people have unpure thoughts... Made them move around as if possessed by demons..

That was what we now call classical music.

In the 1920's, society was doomed by swing music.

In the 50s and 60s it was rock-n-roll...

 

This is just the next new trend. Please remove cranium from hind-quarters and put the blinders to the side. :lol: I am not a big fan of certain types of music, and know that others may not like what I do, but what's next... gonna burn some books?

[otcartsid]

InfiniteNow, you make a good point about this discussion being related to an unconscious tendency toward segregation.

I especially found your bit about the history of music to be interesting

[TheBigDog]

So many post-ers in this thread speak of the evils of rap and hip-hop and thug culture because they are so hateful and disrespectful, when they are exhibiting the EXACT same behaviors here, against which they are speaking so strongly. Seriously... take a deep breath and look in the mirror. It's disturbing how much this resembles an unconscious tendency toward racism and segregation, which for several has probably been so repressed and inwardly shunned to the point where it leaks out without notice in discussions such as this.

 

Centuries ago, music was wantenous and made people have unpure thoughts... Made them move around as if possessed by demons..

That was what we now call classical music.

In the 1920's, society was doomed by swing music.

In the 50s and 60s it was rock-n-roll...

 

This is just the next new trend. Please remove cranium from hind-quarters and put the blinders to the side. :lol: I am not a big fan of certain types of music, and know that others may not like what I do, but what's next... gonna burn some books?

That is precicly why I suggested such old literary references about this topic. I would however like to point out that in your examples from the past (up to certain elements of rock and roll) that the emotions and actions elicited by the music were just that - elicited by the MUSIC. With the music of the "thug" culture you are talking about explicit doctrine in clear english with the sole purpose of eroding decent society. That is a huge difference and something new that has developed out of "thug" culture. Rock has had its dark side too, but was never as explicit.

 

I have no issue with people enjoying "thug" music in their private life. It is fine fine to share with other concenting adults who are emotionally capable of understanding the entertainment value of the music. Not good to hold up as acceptable behavior in polite society. Not good as a lesson for young people as being acceptable public behavior - and when you let your kids role model in this fashion you are implicitly telling them that it is acceptable public behavior.

 

I am pointing my comments at BEHAVIOR not race. If it is perceived as racism that is because the listener feels guilty about their own thoughts.

 

Bill