Meritocracy or Mediocracy?

[InfiniteNow]

With the music of the "thug" culture you are talking about explicit doctrine in clear english with the sole purpose of eroding decent society.

That's a strong stance to take. I must say, I can show the mistake in your statement simply by mentioning alternate purpose(s)... express themselves; make money; support needy egos... I respect your perspective, but do sense you are speaking in generalizations here.

 

Rock has had its dark side too, but was never as explicit.

That's a matter of opinion. People long dead likely thought it was an atrocious assault on the moral fiber of vulnerable youth.

 

I have no issue with people enjoying hip-hop in your private life. It is fine fine to share with other concenting adults who are emotionally capable of understanding the entertainment value of the music. Not good to hold up as acceptable behavior in polite society.

If it's the hip hop music that has you concerned, please do not tune into CNN or CSPAN anytime soon. There are some things going on right now that would get the proverbial panties of our polite society into quite a bunch.

 

Not good as a lesson for young people as being acceptable public behavior - and when you let your kids role model in this fashion you are implicitly telling them that it is acceptable public behavior.

This is similar to the last quote regarding consenting adults (although I know plenty of so-called consenting adults who have the emotional capacity of a rock). The point above I understand, as you are making it from the perspective of a concerned parent. But, kids will be kids, and there are experiences throughtout the world we'd prefer they not encounter. However, it's up to each of us to teach them how to approach life with a curiousity, and to help them find strength enough to understand what they see and hear, and to make good decisions regardless of what that is.

 

Don't make a particular genre of music become some forbidden fruit. They'll only desire it more. Let them listen to it all day and all night if they want... but then engage them in a non-judgmental and open conversation about it. Let them know that they can say whatever it is on their mind and assure them (and yourself) that you're okay with that. Listen to what they have to say. Share your concerns with them, or, more importantly, the reason you have those concerns. All parties involved will learn something, and that's always good.

 

I am pointing my comments at BEHAVIOR not race. If it is perceived as racism that is because the listener feels guilty about their own thoughts.

Please note, Bill... I was very careful not to direct that statement about racism and segration to any one person... yourself excluded as well.

[TheBigDog]

Infinite, I didn't do the best job of checking my post before submitting and it affected the meaning a bit. I replaced my references of hip-hop and rap with just "thug". It is not rap and hip-hop as genres that are the issue. It is the element of those genres that are based upon violent anti-social behaviors that I am referring to as "thug" that are teh target of my ire.

 

I should also have stated that the main effect is to erode society. It may not be the purpose of the individuals involved, but that is the effect.

 

Check the lyrics of rock albums. The Rolling Stones had to lie about the lyrics of "Honkey Tonk Woman" so that the record company would release the album it was on ("Let it Bleed"). "Laid a divorce" was said to be "Made a divorce" to please the execs. But at least there were people upholding standards. Now shock value is all the rage. The more shocking, the more anti-social the better. That is a huge difference. Now check the content. Was Mick talking about rape and sodomy? Nope, just some divorced chick that blew his nose and blew his mind. Compare that with the typical "thug" fare of today. If you hold it up and look at it, it is not a matter of opinion - it is factual that lyrics are far more explict today than ever. And "thug" music is by far the most grafically explicit of all.

 

I am not trying to make a genre of music a forbidden fruit. I am trying to find people who will look at it rationally realize that there is a line between right and wrong. And stop using some bizzarre moral relativism to justify things that are just wrong. I pay attention to what my kids listen to. I listen to things that I would not allow them to listen to. There is a difference between me as an adult, and my children as ... children. Can I have a drink with dinner? Yes. Can they? No. Could they? Yes, but that would be wrong. Should I let them sip a vodka bottle all day and night if they want to, but then sit down and have a rational discussion about it with them afterword? Hell no! And the same goes with the area of ideas. Not all ideas are healthy for children to be exposed to. Judgement requires boundaries, otherwise you don't need a judge. But I digress, that belongs under the "Parenting" thread, not here.

 

For the final point on Racism, if you think racism is wrong, then don't fret about pointing it out. If you think something is racist, then be specific and say so. If I am coming across as racist please let me know. That is not my feeling or my intent.

 

Bill

[Cedars]

which is best for a society? is it best to educate all kids together so the slow can hold back the quick, or should we have different tracks geared to ability?

 

For society, it seems to be best to educate all kids together. Its not about the slow holding back the quick, its about providing equal access to the most people. Opportunity exists for those who can achieve more, but they must undertake the initiative to harvest that individual benefit. Their rewards for their work are theirs alone to enjoy, sometime in their future. If society benefits from the rewards they achieve from their work, well that is an added benefit to all.

 

Are their poor teachers? yes. Are their challenges due to poverty in the teaching environment that even the best teacher could struggle to provide basic education opportunity to the students? yes. Are their challenges to teachers simply because of the family condition, whether its two parents who have no interest in furthering the education of their kids (thats the teachers job), or parents who are away at work for most of the day (say 10 hours including commutes) who come home from work and have to put dinner on the table, keep up with the house and find maybe 4 hours a week that can be spent on a child? Exactly how much is it the teachers responsiblity and how much is the parents responsiblity?

 

what should be done with the lazy, the non-producers, the bad attitudes? should we just accept them as they are or should we try to light their fire? what would happen if we, as a nation, set out to demand everyone to be the best they can be and challenge their excuses for non-performance?

 

As far as the lazy, non-producers, bad attitudes. It has to do with interest I guess. Take the sciences for example. I would guess if you took the medical minds from Mayo or John Hopkins and told them now you have to excel at Geology, you would find a percentage that would resist this change to the point of ' lazy, non-producers, bad attitudes'.

 

Isnt it just a small percentage that resists the education attempts given to the most of society?

[Cedars]

to call Rap music is a stretch. it is ugly in sound and lyrics, and just shows the degradation that the thug culture has. this is the culture that despises education, police, morality, and all authority and praises,drugs, prostitution, shootings and disrespect. there is nothing here to respect, and there is nothing here that helps society.

 

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Music is entertainment. This is not the cause of a societies ills, it is a reflection of the ills set to music. You could ban all Rap music and find yourself with the real issue still going on with vigor. To blame rap/hip hop for any of societies ills is like blaming the Beatles for their song Helter Skelter as being the cause of what Charlie Manson and his followers did on their murder rampage. These things you call ugly and degradation, were a very popular theme in the late 60s and 70s in music too. C&W has its own reflections of societal ills that people are just as devoted to as rap music. Rap is just more 'in your face' in its presentation.

[questor]

Quote: ''Isnt it just a small percentage that resists the education attempts given to the most of society?''

 

no it isn't. have you looked at statistics comparing USA student achievement

compared to the rest of the world? we can''t keep up with the third world countries anymore. why? because we have political correctness and liberal bureaucrats running the system. we don't have a consensus in this country on meritocracy or mediocracy. in the absence of striving for the former, we default to the latter.

[Cedars]

Quote: ''Isnt it just a small percentage that resists the education attempts given to the most of society?''

 

no it isn't. have you looked at statistics comparing USA student achievement

compared to the rest of the world? we can''t keep up with the third world countries anymore. why? because we have political correctness and liberal bureaucrats running the system. we don't have a consensus in this country on meritocracy or mediocracy. in the absence of striving for the former, we default to the latter.

 

US student achievement compared to the world has no bearing on whether or not it is a small percentage of US students who resist educational opportunity. I thought this thread was about 'which is best for a society' concerning education.

 

Who are these third world countries you are refering to. I could find no such statistics.

 

Do you have any information on these countries who are surpassing the USA in reading/writing/arithmetic? Are these countries who are surpassing US students test scores rewarding excellence and basing their teachers pay with the performance of their students? Or are the families involved with the education of their children in a higher ratio than US parents?

 

Do you have any links I can check out?

[InfiniteNow]

If you think something is racist, then be specific and say so. If I am coming across as racist please let me know. That is not my feeling or my intent.

Not any more... not after reading this post, which was clearly much better articulated. However, I will state that I had the sense before. I don't agree with thug ideals either, but it was so intertwined in the concept of hip hop and rap in the earlier posts that it was tough to tell the subtle difference in meaning.

 

Thanks for reminding me that your intentions are good... "Oh lord, please don't let me be... mis...understood."

[questor]

Cedars, this thread is about which attitude is best for society, acting together to promote highest achievment for all, or being satisfied and even seeking, mediocrity.

if you are telling me you have no knowledge about the poor record of education in US schools and our poor performance vis a vis other countries, i find that hard to believe. instead of me doing your homework for you, why don't you come up with some links that disprove my statement?

[Cedars]

Cedars, this thread is about which attitude is best for society, acting together to promote highest achievment for all, or being satisfied and even seeking, mediocrity.

if you are telling me you have no knowledge about the poor record of education in US schools and our poor performance vis a vis other countries, i find that hard to believe. instead of me doing your homework for you, why don't you come up with some links that disprove my statement?

 

As I said, the links I found did not indicate this dire status. I wanted to know where you got your statistics. I could find nothing that indicated the slow hold back the quick, nor did I find anything to indicate teachers should be paid on merit (such as other examples where this has raised the education status of the student). I did not find any indication of a "poor record of education" as you state. I asked if you had any information to sway me in one way or another and you have not presented any evidence in any regard.

[questor]

Cedars, look to your common sense on the statement that the slow hold back the quick. do you think this is a neutral situation? why do you think that

magnet or charter schools were formed?

if you are looking for statistics on the sorry status of American education and have found none, please give me a link that puts us at or near the top internationally. if you wish to challenge my statements, how about doing some research yourself?

paying good teachers a larger salary than poor teachers is my idea.

do you think it should work the other way? shouldn't all incomes be on merit?

not to be rude, but it is not my goal to ''sway'' you. if you have information that disproves my comments, let me hear it. is it your opinion that we should not strive for a meritocracy in all things?

[ughaibu]

Questor: You have made a claim that Cedars has challenged, the onus is on you to back up your claim or retract it. There is no onus at present on Cedars to refute your (as yet unsubstantiated) claim.

[questor]

Ughaibu, i do not see why i should have to respond to a counter to my statement when the reqestor has not studied the subject. i can supply links if necessary, but either you or Cedars are invited to show where i am wrong. if you can do so i will retract or modify my statement. fair enough?

[ughaibu]

Questor: It's not fair enough. If I make a claim, for example 'pigs can fly', I can not use that claim to support my arguments unless it is verifiable. Cedars wants to verify your claim, if you can not back it up it becomes as meaningless as "pigs can fly".

[questor]

Ughaibu, i do not think most pigs can fly. i do think most people can Google a subject and read about it. you obviously agree with Cedars, so why don't

you Google some comparative educational statistics? get back to me.

[Boerseun]

Ooh..

 

I apologize beforehand - I only read the first coupla' posts in this thread, so if I miss something just lemme know...

 

I got to the bit about hip-hop and stuff - and how this can be classified as 'music', and I thought to myself: "Round about here, I've gotta chip in..."

 

Any case.

 

This is me spouting my own personal view on the matter, so bear with me:

 

'Hip-hop', as we know it today, is the WORST kind of artistic pretention available. There is nothing more shallow, or even cynical, out there.

 

Get the lyrics:

"I'm driving in my car (ah-hah-ah-hah)

drive past your favourite bar (ah-hah-ah-hah)

and I wonder how far (ah-hah-ah-hah)

my car will go before (ah-hah-ah-hah)

I run out of fueeeeeellll..........

(oooooh-whoooooooooowwwhoooooowhooooooo!!!)

 

It is so awfully bloody shallow, so incredibly dumb, it is simply tailored for teenaged kids with all their angst about pimples and dumb stuff, that it cannot be seen as art at all.

 

And the people running the whole shebang are a bunch of old farts who check the market out, seeing what dumb kids are willing to buy nowadays.

 

It is so far removed from art, it's not even funny.

 

The closest it gets to being music, is by having a crappy beat.

 

That was my piece.

 

Hip-hop is the rape of what we would normally call 'music'.

[InfiniteNow]

Jim Morrison - The DOORS:

"I like any reaction I can get with my music. Just anything to get people to think. I mean if you can get a whole room full of drunk, stoned people to actually wake up and think, you're doing something."

"Violence isn't always evil. What's evil is the infatuation with violence."

"Music inflames temperament. "

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Art#Defining_art

[questor]

Jim Morrison DEAD (by his own hand) should we praise him, glorify him, or PITY him?