Question about light & relativity

[arkain101]

Okay relativity is a pretty complicated thing to understand. The more I read the easier it gets and yet the more complicated it seems to get at the same time with some of the paradoxs involved.

 

Anyway I have a question and here is the scenario.

 

There is an observer on earth who is watching a ship fly by in the solar system at nearly the speed of light.

 

The person on the ship turns on a lazer that is pointing the same direction as it is traveling as it flies by, quite far away.

 

Okay so, because light has to remain constant for each frame of reference, the person on the ship sees the lazer fly away from him at C, the constant velocity of light when he turns it on....?

 

Now the observer on earth sees this ship cruizing through the solar system and is able to see the lazer (maybe it is reflecting off of space dust or somthing, or we just imagine he can see it) So if I understand properly according to the earth observer the lazer will appear to slowly pull ahead from the ship (if we assume the ship is going about 10mph slower than light).

 

 

The "time" zone the ship is experiencing is going to be alot slower than the assumed time zone for the observer on earth according to observer on earth and for the observer on the ship, by one witnessing the ship having slow time and one witnessing the earth having fast time, so they will both be able to claim the ship is experiencing slower than surrounding time.

 

So as the light lazer leaves the ship it leaves from a time zone that appears slower, so would it then transform back into regular time zone according to the earth observer? because the frequency of the lazer is measured to be the same for each observer, even though they are both experiencing different time zones and the lazer continues moving the same speed it always would according to the observer?

 

As for the person on the ship, he will see the observer on earth make this assumption that time is moving slowly for the fast moving ship, and when he sees the earth person run about doing his activities of recording data in his notebook and moving around from his desk to his telescope (where he sees the ship from) the earth person will have to "appear" to be moving faster than normal because the time on earth, and the surroundings will be appearing faster time according to the ship observer?

 

So does this mean that the person on earth is really actually moving faster as time appears faster? or is it mearly the information the light is carrying that creates the illusion that time is moving more quickly in all the surroundings for the ship observer?

 

If it is only the illusion that time is changing then would it mean that in the total system of this experiment that the TRUE TIME remains the same but only changes relative two these two reference frames.. yes?

 

I wonder because, if the person on the ship sees, the illusion of the world around him look like its going faster in time, or is it REALLY actually moving faster in time? Either way, if he makes calculations of the velocity he sees of things happening on earth to calculate kinetic energy and things like that, would he not find that all his surroundings are breaking the laws of physics? If he could literally see the observer running around really fast and bumping into things once and awhile without injuring himself, or causing particle annialation for that matter, from the high speed interactions of matter he witnesses from his ship..

Because if the world really was moving as fast as it was percieved the function of physics, and the mass of everything around the ship observer, along with time of course, would all have to drastically change in order to stay functioning under the laws of physics.

 

Does the mass of surroundings ACTUALLY reduce to allow high speed interaction of matter -like the earth observer flying around his observering center at what looks like 1000mph- ? or is it just an illusion that time is changing? because if mass did not reduce the G-forces would be lethal and the universe would need to lose nearly all its mass to function as it really does.

 

Does the velocity of the surroundings according to the ship observer Actually increase or is that also just an interpratation one makes from the data of the light?

 

Is my reasoning wrong? because at this point I see light needing (to remain in the way of relativity) to exist two seperate reference frames, with each reference frame experiencing different time zones, and so existing at the same time in two different time sets. Mass is of the ship is actually growing at the same rate the universe would require to be losing mass. The interactions of matter would literally change if particles began to interact at such high velocities.

 

I suppose if time is actually a real function, or seperate dimension of some kind, it would allow space to smoothly exist in infinte interpratations of time that would as a whole work in one total singular time action. As if we were to choose one version of time as a 0, and anything slower a negetive (-) minus ratio of time slower than the 0, and anything experiencing quicker time with a (+) ratio. So if one was to take all those calculations and put it together the +'s and -'s would cancle eachother out to a singular time total?

 

I appologize if this is difficult to understand, it is one of those days where Im having a bit of difficulty keeping things very concise and clear (hang over :rainbow: )

 

I imagine I will get the reponse to further learn about SR, and I shall.

 

thanks if you read this far.

Something tells me ill have to rethink my questions and ask again after a response.

[woog]

Sorry I didn't finish reading your whole post before answering, but I noticed something:

 

The "time" zone the ship is experiencing is going to be alot slower than the assumed time zone for the observer on earth according to observer on earth and for the observer on the ship, by one witnessing the ship having slow time and one witnessing the earth having fast time, so they will both be able to claim the ship is experiencing slower than surrounding time.

From the ship's view, the earth is moving away at close to the speed of light as well but in the opposite direction. So what should happen is that both observers think the other is experiencing "slower time" than themselves, not just the earth. Both are equally valid in claiming they themselves are stationary while the other is moving.

 

So we have a problem in that both think the other is experiencing less time than themselves.

 

I have yet to fully grasp how this is resolved through the physics and the math, but the general idea is that somehow nature conspires quite cleverly to remove this logical dilemma. It's something along the lines of: for the two observers to even detect such a difference means they must meet together again and compare information. In doing so, somehow things come into perfect agreement again. :rainbow:

 

Sorry that's the best I can do for now.

[arkain101]

From the ship's view, the earth is moving away at close to the speed of light as well but in the opposite direction. So what should happen is that both observers think the other is experiencing "slower time" than themselves, not just the earth. Both are equally valid in claiming they themselves are stationary while the other is moving

 

Precisely!

 

Now read carefully, cause this is the glitch I have been contemplating. This above notion is the twin paradox. Logically either reference frame could be expected to experience time dialation ONLY when we consider that the vacume of space-time is NOT a significant seperate dimension and entity from matter and energy. This is because space-time as a dimension in rest allows us to assume there is an absolute, (spacetime), which can be the rest frame that is repsonsible for velocity being constrained to a limit, when it passes in this nearly undetectable dimension frame. But! Relativity appears to exclude the notion of an absolute rest frame, which logistically causes the twin paradox to become verifiable again because of the impossibility to decifer a speed difference between any pair of frames. This is, that they both think either one should experience slower time -cancle out paradox-

 

Does that make sense? Is what I have stated correct or plausible..?

 

I will try to summerize and keept it short.

 

Twin paradox is viable and applicable when NOT considering an absolute rest frame of space-time. Because, no definition of seperate individual velocities is honestly valid.

 

Twin Paradox is non existant and excluded when considering there is an absolute rest reference frame. Because, of the obvious difference in individual object velocities, allowing one to determine who should experience a time dialation.

[kamil]

Arkain 101, arent you representing similair arguments in other threads?

 

Any way, Relativity was created from two postulates 1) constancy of lightspeed. 2)All inertial frame are equal

 

If you assume the second postulate to be incorect then you cant even assum any of the conceqeunces of relativity(time dilation etc.) exist.

 

Secondly, the twin paradox can be resolved, this is the best link i found so far:

http://www.phys.vt.edu/~jhs/faq/twins.html

 

It doesnt have any of the GR garbage explanations that are freqeuntly used.

 

From this link i realised the twin paradox can be solved through the one formula that relates time cordinates of two different inertial frames:

 

t'=(t-vx/cc)*gamma gamma=1/sqrt(1-[v/c]^2)

 

where co-ordinates 0,0,0,0 are the same in both frames.

 

both twins meet at point 0,0,0,0 and one twin heads off to a space station 1lightyear away moving at a speed of 0.8c. The journy will take 1.25 years from the laboratory frames refrence frame.

 

If we assume the stay at home twin to be stationary then:

 

t'=(1.25-0.8)/0.6

t'=0.75

 

So the rocket frame twin will see 0.75 after the journey, now since both inertial frames are valid the the formula can be applied to both frames, though theres a difference now, since the rocket twin is stationary then the space station and earth is moving at 0.8c, so the distance between them will be conrtacted.

 

<---0.8c (EARTH)-------------------------(SPACE STATION)

 

the ditance between them will now be 0.6light years. So it will take the space ship 0.6/0.8 lightyears=0.75 light years.

 

apply that to the formula:

 

t'=(t-vx/cc)*gamma.

 

this time the space station is acually moving to the origin of the rocket, so the space station is gonna be located on x-cordinate=0 at the end of the trip!

 

t'=(0.75-0.8*0)/0.6

t'=0.75/0.6

t'=1.25

 

There you go NO PARADOX!!!!!!!!:rainbow:

[woog]

deleted

[arkain101]

I thank you Kamil.

 

That does validate the non existence of the twin paradox more clearly than I have heard in awhile.

 

Now do you agree with me on this -what I posted above- :

 

"Twin Paradox is non existant and excluded when considering there is an absolute rest reference frame. Because, of the obvious difference in individual object velocities, allowing one to determine who should experience a time dialation."

 

So since the twin paradox does not exist, I say, we can confidently assume that there is an absolute rest! The fabric of space-time itself! A different dimension for sure, but I am not sure which one.

 

This is why!

 

|---0m/s(earth)----|------------>-0.98C-(ship1)->----->-0.99C(ship2)-->

 

These are the velocities earth witnesses while observing two ships fly away.

 

Ship 1: Like earth is going to assume it is at rest. It now considers ship 2 to be traveling away at only -0.01C-. The thing is, according to what has been described in relativity, ship1 should register that ship2's time is going to be slower than its own, and earths time will be faster than its own.

 

Ship 2: Will witness earth leaving it at .99C, and ship1 leaving it at -0.01C-, same as ship1. Although, according to SR, Ship2 will notice it has slower time than both earth and ship1, and SR will stand true.

 

Now to get to my point. This logically describes that Space-time CAN be respectfully assumed as having an absolute rest. This is because, as shown above, each observer is witnessing very different perspectives and would "according to their perspective" have arguments among who is REALLY moving without the use of SR. On the flipside, while using SR, calculations will show that they can and will be able to decide who is REALLY doing the motion and who will REALLY experience which time zone/dialtion. Now if you arent completely following my point I will do my best to conclude the absolute rest. If we were to exclude the assumtion of some kind of dimensional fabric, which is rest, then we will not be able to decide with SR calculations which one is moving faster... because of; Faster according to what?

 

If we were to add a fourth reference frame(ship3); In Front of earth like so:

 

|(ship3)---0m/s(earth)----|------------>-0.98C-(ship1)->----->-0.99C(ship2)-->

 

Now if ship3 was to consider earth moving away at say, 0.25C in the same direction as the ships,

 

(meanwhile we conserve earths observations of the speeds of ship1 and ship2)

 

and ship3 observes ship1 at what would be 0.25C[earth] + 0.98C[ship1's conserved speed]. In this case the speed of light would be exceeded and this would be an impossibility. So, respectfully, earth's ASSUMED rest in this experiment must be at anything less than 0.01C, in order for SHIP3 to assume it is also at rest. If earth was to be over 0.01C, SHIP3 would then witness ship1 and ship2 to be exceeding C as they fly away from SHIP3, ship3 that says its at rest (and has the fastest time zone of all frames). This should -through calculations, that I unfortunatly am unfamiliar with- show how there MUST be an absolute rest in order for SR to function as it does. And that absolute rest will be the Dimension in which Matter and Energy reside with-in per say.

To create a visible mind image of this abstract Imagine just as if you were to contrast, space-time fabric & matter-energy, and to only find that the, nothing & invisble fabric of space-time becomes the visible SEA of source (different dimension in visible form), and matter then becomes the "invisible fabric" which sits like bubbles in the sea. While energy is a disturbance which possibly passes through the SEA of source, the sea of source in this contrast which is actually like a particless liquid.

(This description of contrasting dimensions, was only to give a visual interpratation of bringing the invisible seperate dimension [possibly 4th dimension] of space-time to conceivement and abstractable, but obviously and most likely would not be the actuall experience.

 

Thoughts?

[arkain101]

If Absolute Rest and Special Relativity are tied together like I am suspecting.

 

If one were to test and prove one it would prove the other.

 

Testing for absolute rest could be more easily performed than Experimenting with Time Dialation experiments.

 

If Absolute Rest is tested for and proved then SR will likewise be respectfully proved. Theories which should be able to be proved by both Webenton's experiment and my similar experiment which can be found and described here:

 

http://hypography.com/forums/astronomy-cosmology/5018-relativity-experiment-how-fast-we-really.html

[arkain101]

Oh right one thing I have been meaning to add that I kept forgetting.

 

According to SR theory, when an object reaches nearly the speed of light it gains mass.

 

Can we, and how can we show mathamatically that it is in fact the moving object gaining mass and not the universe losing mass. or is it even a combinatino of both?

 

This is like the twin paradox, (which i understand now) but do we say, their time slowed down, or our time sped up, and their mass went up or our masses went down.

 

Pretty much its just a play on words I suppose but maybe someone can conceptualize it better.??

[kamil]

U said: The thing is, according to what has been described in relativity, ship1 should register that ship2's time is going to be slower than its own, and earths time will be faster than its own.

 

It will be slower not faster, in teh twin paradox both twins measure eachothers clock as moving slower.

All of the concepts of relativity rely on all inertial frames measuring the same laws of physics, so if the earth is moving then the earth has slower time, if the ship is moving then the ship has slower time. Relativity would be nothing

if absolute motion existed. SR solves the problem of applying the motion of light into simple mechanics. Absolute motion would solve the problem also, But it doesnt exist! thats why late 19th century physicists were looking for an aether.

 

Space and time is at rest to everyone else, its just that the different measurement of it resolves the problem that the constancy of light creates.

[TheBigDog]

It will be slower not faster, in teh twin paradox both twins measure eachothers clock as moving slower.

I think there is a difference between measuring the clocks and observing the clocks. One of the twins undergoes acceleration, the other does not. They observe the same phenomena from each perspective. Relativity casts an illusion over local perspective to create the observations of the participants.

 

Bill

[Guadalupe]

Hmmmmmm.

 

:rainbow:

[kamil]

I think there is a difference between measuring the clocks and observing the clocks. One of the twins undergoes acceleration, the other does not. They observe the same phenomena from each perspective. Relativity casts an illusion over local perspective to create the observations of the participants.

 

Bill

 

Relativity deals with when something happened, not when somebody see's something. When we say 'the twin see's....' we mean that from the inertial frame of the twin, this and this happens.