FrankM Posted July 4, 2004 Report Posted July 4, 2004 When mathematical and scientific information is discussed on this forum, it is generally provided in textualand symbolic form. I recognize that our mathematics and scientific theory has been developed over anextended period of time that included many languages and numeric systems. The symbolic system we use to present mathematical and scientific information requires the use of references to know exactly whatis meant. The wave formula, f = c / L (where L represents lambda), is the representation of a scientific principle using symbolic language. However, the symbols would be meaningless by themselves unless one understood the mathematical notation, and still meaningless if f, c and L are not described somewhere.c in itself is a complex definition, it has a numeric value and it is expressed in meters per second, and those terms would have to be defined. Can complex mathematical and scientific concepts be presented without a textual reference or a symbolic language? Once you think about it, I am sure one or more methods will come to mind.
Uncle Martin Posted July 4, 2004 Report Posted July 4, 2004 Wouldn't binary be as close to a universally understood language as we can get?
Bo Posted July 4, 2004 Report Posted July 4, 2004 To describe the world mathematics (or logic in a general sense) is a powerfull language, what numerical system you use is of no real importance; it doesnt change the physical interpretation of the formulas. The reason we use mathematics is i think twofold: 1) if you want to write down very accurate what you want to say, you need a language that allows simple, exact, unambigious interpretation. Only mathematics has that. 2) If you want to see the exact results of some 'discovery' you need to be able to manipulate your results in such a way that you are guarenteed that your initial information isn't lost/altered. Once again only mathematics has this property. -Bo
Uncle Martin Posted July 4, 2004 Report Posted July 4, 2004 What if SETI received a signal loaded with information, as in the movie "Contact". Without knowing the value of any of their symbols, even if the message contained all the answers we seek, it would be useless. I know almost nothing of cryptography, would we be able to decipher such a message?
Bo Posted July 4, 2004 Report Posted July 4, 2004 i dont think we would be able to decipher it; that is: if it is just words. But most probably the words would be accompanied by pictures (even mankind was that genius...) and then.. well maybe?
FrankM Posted July 4, 2004 Author Report Posted July 4, 2004 Originally posted by: Uncle MartinWouldn't binary be as close to a universally understood language as we can get? Binary is an extremely abstract language that requires extensive references to be able to interpret, andthere are many forms of binary. binary If you found a stone monument with the following inscription it could not be interpreted without a table ofconversions, and even then you would not know if it was meant to represent just a number or somethingelse. 10010100110111101100101
Freethinker Posted July 4, 2004 Report Posted July 4, 2004 Originally posted by: FrankMCan complex mathematical and scientific concepts be presented without a textual reference or a symbolic language? Once you think about it, I am sure one or more methods will come to mind.Well first 10010100110111101100101 is "Joe " http://www.knitlist.com/binary_process.htm But actually, no, if you remove symbolic language (to which I would include "textual reference" as part of it's set) , I see no way to commuicate ANYTHING. "Language" includes non-verbal as well as verbal symbolic communications. There is Sign language, Body Language and such. The only non-symbolic language communications process I can imagine is ESP. And well...
Uncle Martin Posted July 4, 2004 Report Posted July 4, 2004 C'mon Frank, you obviously have some thoughts on this. Please share them with us.
IrishEyes Posted July 5, 2004 Report Posted July 5, 2004 Unc said...What if SETI received a signal loaded with information, as in the movie "Contact". Without knowing the value of any of their symbols, even if the message contained all the answers we seek, it would be useless. I know almost nothing of cryptography, would we be able to decipher such a message? Finally, a technical question that I can answer with a degree of certainty...After spending 10 years doing cryptography, cryptology and cryptographic analysis, I can say... oh man! I'm not supposed to say, am I? LOL Unc, I am fairly certain that we could handle it. Computer programs that have been developed in the past decade search for things like repeating patterns, and many other things that I can't specifically state, but I'm sure FreeT is aware of, Things are not quite as flashy as Hollywood would like you to believe, but I was amazed at the stuff I learned when working at a non-existent agency near Baltimore. Tom Clancy has nothing on the real thing!
Uncle Martin Posted July 5, 2004 Report Posted July 5, 2004 Too bad so much of it is classified. You could teach me how to find the password to the moderators forum. I'm the curious type and it's driving me nuts wondering what you are discussing there all by yourselves.
IrishEyes Posted July 5, 2004 Report Posted July 5, 2004 Too bad so much of it is classified. You could teach me how to find the password to the moderators forum. I'm the curious type and it's driving me nuts wondering what you are discussing there all by yourselves. That's just too funny. Tormod basically tells me I'm goofy, and i complain about FreeT walking around shirtless with his niopple clamps on in plain sight, and FreeT never says a word. Wait a sec...FreeT never says a word there!!! Hey, I just realized where I should be spending my time... Ok, talk about silly posts! Geez, I think I need sleep. But yes, it IS too bad that so much of it is classified. Of course, if the general public were aware of some of those things...Oh who am I kidding? Watching the general public over the last 30 or so years, I doubt they'd even notice if it were all spilled in tomorrow's New York Times, much less care!
Freethinker Posted July 5, 2004 Report Posted July 5, 2004 Originally posted by: IrishEyesI'm sure FreeT is aware of, Things are not quite as flashy as Hollywood would like you to believe, but I was amazed at the stuff I learned when working at a non-existent agency near Baltimore. Tom Clancy has nothing on the real thing!It is fairly easy to identify an "intellegent" signal from the background noise. Bandwidth distribution alone would be a major clue. But decifering the basic structure of the info could be incredibly difficult. In our own usage of the broadcast RF spectrum we have a wide number of "modulation" schemes. Ways of encoding information. In Contact the clue was picked up by a blind guy. He recognized the structured noise pattern because he was used to hearing it from Video sources. He was "hearing" the regularly timed and structured syncronizing pulses TV uses. But any waveform analysis should have picked it up. This again would be based on a mutually understood information transmission system.
Freethinker Posted July 5, 2004 Report Posted July 5, 2004 Originally posted by: Uncle MartinToo bad so much of it is classified. You could teach me how to find the password to the moderators forum. I'm the curious type and it's driving me nuts wondering what you are discussing there all by yourselves. No Unc, you really don't want to know. You will sleep better this way!
Freethinker Posted July 5, 2004 Report Posted July 5, 2004 Originally posted by: IrishEyesWait a sec...FreeT never says a word there!!! Hey, I just realized where I should be spending my time... Wait... WHAT???? a message board just for ME? And I'm not there? Let me tighten my clamps and head right over.
FrankM Posted July 5, 2004 Author Report Posted July 5, 2004 Originally posted by: Freethinker Well first 10010100110111101100101 is "Joe " That definitely shows the power of Google, since that eliminated having to convert the binary tohexadecimal and then into the Latin character set. The Joe Klinkhoff site aptly illustrates the level of abstraction required to convert a string of characters into binary. Binary is not an intuitive language,it requires references. The only non-symbolic language communications process I can imagine is ESP. Actually it is quite easy to present complex mathematical and scientific concepts without using asingle symbol. Substantial mathematical/scientific information can be presented with just three adjoininglines. A series of non-joining lines could express knowledge of the Fibonacci Series. The possibilities are numerous. I am sure that "non-existent agency" has thought of many more non-symbolic ways to passscientific information.
Tormod Posted July 5, 2004 Report Posted July 5, 2004 Basically, I think it boils down to semantics. If we were to send the SYMBOL "pi" nobody out there would have the faintest idea of what we are trying to communicate. However, by sending the first 10 or so digits of Pi, we would make it possible for the recipient to at least get an idea of what we are sending. It begs the question, though - even if we would be able to communicate with ET, how on earth (or rather, off it) could we even begin to comprehend what we are telling each other? Just swapping mathematical insights doesn't quite seem like an intellectual discussion. Tormod
Uncle Martin Posted July 5, 2004 Report Posted July 5, 2004 Originally posted by: FrankMActually it is quite easy to present complex mathematical and scientific concepts without using asingle symbol. Substantial mathematical/scientific information can be presented with just three adjoininglines. A series of non-joining lines could express knowledge of the Fibonacci Series.I may not understand you correctly, but it sure seems to me that three adjoining or non-adjoining lines qualify as symbols. I have to go with FT's ESP on this one. Well... sort of, .....seems that even ESP would require some symbolic references. What you are claiming is that you can send me substantial information without using ANY symbols at all. Do it. Post a completely blank reply to this post and let's see if I understand what you are trying to convey.
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