Show Me And I’ll Believe

[Kevin Wirth]

For all you evolutionists out there (esp. TORMOD)…

 

Here’s what you need to do to convince us that evolution is more than just a belief system.

 

I want you to show us the evolutionary history of a “vertebrate” mammal going all the way back to the Cambrian explosion. This means you need to start with a critter as it exists today, and then tell me who it’s ancestors were or 'must have been'. Trace it all the way back to the Cambrian explosion. I don’t care if it’s a rat or a bat, but – I want you to SHOW ME how it 'must have' happened.

 

And, you must do this convincingly, ie, you must describe all the changes that were made to all the systems, like skin, bone structure, chemical structure, reproductive organs, breathing, etc. for each new intermediate all along the way. And then you must describe HOW those changes occurred. And please don’t give me any baloney about how impossible it is, and I don't care to hear any excuses about why you can't do it.

 

If you can't do this, then fine. No problem. But then, you can stop chiding or dissing anyone for not believing in evolution.

[ughaibu]

Who do you speak for with the word "us"? I can guarantee 100% that you dont speak for me.

[Kevin Wirth]

Who do you speak for with the word "us"? I can guarantee 100% that you dont speak for me.

 

Fine. Then you don't need to read this, do you...

[ughaibu]

In short, no answer.

[arkain101]

well bacteria started eating eachother, the grew bigger, and learned how to team up. so on and so forth mindless atoms and energy chaotically seeked out purpose to absorb material to create chemical reactions in their cells to generate energy to continue this senseless automaton purpose. Eventually the cells after absorbing sunlight spawned an photon sensory organ and vision began. Of course it was not necessaraly important that atoms could see but I guess thats how it goes.. Next thing you know lizards are running around on the land mating and dieng. Gamma ray bursts and particles or some kind of freak accidents caused maniuplatino of organism to continue and continue, one day a monkey came along, from a previous creature, and that monkey automaton got smarter and more conscious, of course, it is still only atomic material so its just a chaotic dance in the chaos of universe randomness giving us a temporary show to be part of. History moved on, god was invented and here we are.. automatons that know it all :(

 

Btw, this is sarcastic as I understand there is way more to life than this general evolutino description.

[Tormod]

For all you evolutionists out there (esp. TORMOD)…

 

Here’s what you need to do to convince us that evolution is more than just a belief system.

 

...bla bla...

 

If you can't do this, then fine. No problem. But then, you can stop chiding or dissing anyone for not believing in evolution.

 

Since when I have been chiding or dissing anyone for not believing in evolution?

 

As opposed to certain other people I am not on a crusade.

[Kevin Wirth]

well bacteria started eating eachother, the grew bigger, and learned how to team up. so on and so forth mindless atoms and energy chaotically seeked out purpose to absorb material to create chemical reactions in their cells to generate energy to continue this senseless automaton purpose. Eventually the cells after absorbing sunlight spawned an photon sensory organ and vision began. Of course it was not necessaraly important that atoms could see but I guess thats how it goes.. Next thing you know lizards are running around on the land mating and dieng. Gamma ray bursts and particles or some kind of freak accidents caused maniuplatino of organism to continue and continue, one day a monkey came along, from a previous creature, and that monkey automaton got smarter and more conscious, of course, it is still only atomic material so its just a chaotic dance in the chaos of universe randomness giving us a temporary show to be part of. History moved on, god was invented and here we are.. automatons that know it all :cocktail:

 

Btw, this is sarcastic as I understand there is way more to life than this general evolutino description.

 

Nice. Cute even. But I think you know what I'm looking for here. Not a fairy tale - I want to see a serious attempt at an evolutionary description with some evidence behind it.

 

And, it's "sought out purpose", not "seeked out purpose". :beer:

[Kevin Wirth]

Since when I have been chiding or dissing anyone for not believing in evolution?

 

As opposed to certain other people I am not on a crusade.

 

Fine, if that remark doesn't apply to you, then simply ignore it. It DOES apply, however, to others in this forum.

 

Anyway, you're skirting the issue TORMOD. Let's stick to the point, shall we? How 'bout that description? :cocktail:

[jetzeppelin]

Evolutionary data will never be sufficient enough. I should say hypotheses or speculation to be more accurate, I guess.

 

Evolution is not science, it is not observable or testable.

 

It is all derived from sheer speculation and hypotheses, based on observations in the present. Honestly I don't think evolution will ever be proven, and even if it does, that does not account for the origin of matter.

 

The day a scientist creates an electron, proton or neutron from nihilos, that is the day I will stop believing in a Creator.

[Tormod]

Fine, if that remark doesn't apply to you, then simply ignore it. It DOES apply, however, to others in this forum.

 

Anyway, you're skirting the issue TORMOD. Let's stick to the point, shall we? How 'bout that description? :cocktail:

 

I don't remember offering you a description. How about bothering to read a book about evolution? I can recommend a visit to your local library.

[Tormod]

Evolutionary data will never be sufficient enough. I should say hypotheses or speculation to be more accurate, I guess.

 

Moving this thread to theology where it belongs.

[jetzeppelin]

Moving this thread to theology where it belongs.

 

I apologize for going on a tangent, I guess it is in my nature haha, I think too much sometimes.

[jetzeppelin]

I don't remember offering you a description. How about bothering to read a book about evolution? I can recommend a visit to your local library.

 

Darwinian evolution by its nature requires an increase in information. For one creature to change intoa completely different species over eons of time.

 

Adaptation is, different, it can occur in minuscule amounts of time, and no new information is gained.

 

I am a thinking Christian, and I think it is idiotic to deny adaptation, but I cannot find the faith within myself to invest in such a theory, a claim as extraordinary as Darwin has made requires more than observations in the present, it requires proof from the past. Proof, not evidence.

[Tormod]

jetzeppelin - your comments about evolution shows that you are not aware of what evolutionary theory is.

[Pyrotex]

Evolutionary data will never be sufficient enough. Evolution is not science, it is not observable or testable...

Honestly I don't think evolution will ever be proven, and even if it does, that does not account for the origin of matter.

Of course it won't ever be enough. You are not searching for data.

Yes, it is observable and testable. It has been observed and tested.

No, I will not show you. Your title is not actually true; I and a thousand others could show you, and you still would not believe.

"Honestly,..." That may be the key problem here. Once one commits oneself to the realm of make-believe and rigidity, honesty becomes just another myth.

"...and even if it does"--you deny its validity with one hand and then state your rock-bound, unflinching, refusal to accept even if it were proven to you.

You are not searching for proof.

And you are not searching for the origin of matter.

You are not searching for Truth, whatever that may be.

You are not "searching" at all.

Your mind is a fossil, an ancient belief trapped in stone.

 

"None are so blind as they who will not see."

 

But the irony, the real corker, the thigh-slapper is this:

Nowhere in the New Testament is there one word -- not one word --

that forbids you to accept the reality of evolution or any other scientific conclusion.

[jetzeppelin]

Of course it won't ever be enough. You are not searching for data.

Yes, it is observable and testable. It has been observed and tested.

No, I will not show you. Your title is not actually true; I and a thousand others could show you, and you still would not believe.

"Honestly,..." That may be the key problem here. Once one commits oneself to the realm of make-believe and rigidity, honesty becomes just another myth.

"...and even if it does"--you deny its validity with one hand and then state your rock-bound, unflinching, refusal to accept even if it were proven to you.

You are not searching for proof.

And you are not searching for the origin of matter.

You are not searching for Truth, whatever that may be.

You are not "searching" at all.

Your mind is a fossil, an ancient belief trapped in stone.

 

"None are so blind as they who will not see."

 

But the irony, the real corker, the thigh-slapper is this:

Nowhere in the New Testament is there one word -- not one word --

that forbids you to accept the reality of evolution or any other scientific conclusion.

 

Thanks for the ad hominem attack.

 

Btw

 

Romans 1:20

For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

 

Of course the Bible wouldn't specifically quote "evolution" or natural theory. It does not tell us what not to believe in regards to creation, but it does tell us what to believe.

 

And because I do not follow the dogmatic pursuit of empirical evidence for anything that is to be believed, my mind isa fossil? Because I have examined science, cosmology and philosophy and have come to the reasonable conclusion of a Creator?

 

I am not in pursuit for the origin of matter, I know where it came from, but because my presupposition differs from yours you think it is foolishness. But to me it is foolishness to simply let knowledge rest and claim to absurd theories of matter coming into the universe without cause, and theories of infinitely collapsing and expanding universes.

 

No natural theory ever has even come close to an explanation for the beginning of matter, besides grapsing at straws saying "it has always been" ot "it comes and goes", which has been proven over and over and over again to be an philosophical and physical impossibility.

[Kevin Wirth]

I don't remember offering you a description. How about bothering to read a book about evolution? I can recommend a visit to your local library.

 

True - you didn't offer a description, and I never said you did. I'm issuing a challenge here. I'm asking you or anyone else in this forum to simply respond the my original challenge, which is the first comment I posted in this thread.