Ac electrolysis

[redeagle]

First of all Jay-qu, . You obviously have great potential for knowlege, but you are giving people bad information. Don't quote it if you can't provide documentation. But I do urge you, please continue your research, we need more bright minds working towards a self sufficient nation.

 

AC electricity will not cause the hydrogen you just reduced to oxidize. The sine wave is a change of magnitude and direction of current only. There are highly efficient "Water torch" systems on the market today that use neither a rectifier or a transformer. Plug them in the wall fill it with water and turn them on.

 

DO NOT USE NaCl AKA: SALT as and electrolyte. Clorine ions oxidize easier than oxygen. Thus you will be producing clorine gas which is deadlier than buring the hydrogen you are producing.

 

Use a strong base such as NaOH (lye), KOH, or a mixture. 100% lye crystals/powder is available for purchase online and in most hardware stores with the drain cleaners. USE GLOVES concentrated Lye WILL BURN YOU!!!

 

Tap water contains alot of chemicals, use distilled water or filtered well/spring water. Add lye slowly until you reach a safe maximum amperage. Never go above your amperage/voltage rating on ur cables. If you do they will melt. I've done it, it's not fun.

 

For the people that have tried or thinking about trying to taping a piece of metal to the lead and neutral wires and plugging it into an AC socket, forget it. The voltage is too high for that type of system. Use a variac transformer start low and raise it slowly until the reaction starts. If you are just playing keep you amperage low.

 

Never boil your water with ur electrolysis system. If you do, know what can happen before it starts to boil. Failing to plan is planning to fail.

 

Outside of electrode arrangement which you can easily find on the internet, it the material. stainless steel or other corrosive resistant metal is a must. General rule of thumb if electroplating put it on, it will take it off.

 

Last but not least document and publish your research even if it's just in a forum like this or a public blog.

[Moontanman]

I expect that each electrode produces both Oxygen & Hydrogen, that it doesn't recombine, & that the gases fill the tubes displacing all the electrolyte in them after some period of time.

 

I have the necessary apparatus & plan to conduct the experiment in the next few days.

 

 

Any conductor is sufficient. Do you mean that carbon doesn't electrolyze?

 

:naughty:

 

Turtle, if you use AC for electrolysis you will get a mixture of hydrogen and oxygen at each electrode. Only DC will seperate them one at each electrode. You'll blow up dude:eek_big: You could use fluctuating DC at any frequency but not AC!

 

When I was in high school I once ran an experiment with high voltage DC through a brine solution. I had a ballon flask to catch the chlorine and it ran over night but the really large ballon flask broke the next day releasing a huge cloud of chlorine, they had to evacuate the entire school. I had the entire system sealed so it would build up pressure. Now days homeland security would probably have hauled me off:hihi:

[Jay-qu]

First of all Jay-qu, go buy a physics book. You obviously have great potential for knowlege, but you are giving people bad information. Don't quote it if you can't prove it. But I do urge you, please continue your research, we need more bright minds working towards a self sufficient nation.

 

Hi redeagle, Can I ask what you were refering to exactly?

[redeagle]

Hi redeagle, Can I ask what you were refering to exactly?

 

On the first page of the forum you promptly state that AC will not cause electrolysis. Then you claim that AC current will undo what it just did.

 

When asked to justify your claim with scientific facts you avoided the issue all together. You seemed to get defensive about your "I think" rather than providing information confirming your statement or asking for other's opinion. EDIT "I stand corrected about the post I was alluding to. I have reread it and understand that you did ask for corrections if necessary"

 

I'm not trying to put you down about what you said just trying to get you to defend your information not your pride. After all we wouldn't have science if nobody ever asked why.

 

 

 

 

The question that remains unanswered about AC electrolysis is efficiency vs. DC. The late stanley meyer would argue that a high frequency DC pulse would be more efficient because it reduces wasted current by allowing the bubbles to float of the electrodes before the next pulse is sent through.

[freeztar]

First of all Jay-qu, go buy a physics book.

 

First of all, it's best to not be presumptive and/or dismissive. I'm quite sure that Jay-q has many physics books (being the physics student that he is :( ). If you'd like to point out a specific physics book to get, then that would be much more helpful imho.

 

It seems obvious (now) that Jay-q erred in his first post to this thread. We all make mistakes and an enthusiasm for learning (coupled with humbleness) is the only way to turn mistakes into understanding. I'll stop there as I feel I might be "stepping on the toes" of Jay's own response.

 

DO NOT USE NaCl AKA: SALT as and electrolyte. Clorine ions oxidize easier than oxygen. Thus you will be producing clorine gas which is deadlier than buring the hydrogen you are producing.

Can you post the chemical formula(s) for this please?

Until this thread (which I just found), I've never heard of Cl- being produced via electrolysis with NaCl as the electrolyte. It certainly seems possible as the Cl is already present in solution, but where does the Na go (NOH?)? I'd like to know the chemical mechanisms.

 

document and publish your research even if it's just in a forum like this or a public blog.

 

I agree whole-heartedly. Hypography is a great place to do this, as demonstrated by this thread. :(

[Moontanman]

First of all, it's best to not be presumptive and/or dismissive. I'm quite sure that Jay-q has many physics books (being the physics student that he is :cheer: ). If you'd like to point out a specific physics book to get, then that would be much more helpful imho.

 

It seems obvious (now) that Jay-q erred in his first post to this thread. We all make mistakes and an enthusiasm for learning (coupled with humbleness) is the only way to turn mistakes into understanding. I'll stop there as I feel I might be "stepping on the toes" of Jay's own response.

 

 

Can you post the chemical formula(s) for this please?

Until this thread (which I just found), I've never heard of Cl- being produced via electrolysis with NaCl as the electrolyte. It certainly seems possible as the Cl is already present in solution, but where does the Na go (NOH?)? I'd like to know the chemical mechanisms.

 

 

 

I agree whole-heartedly. Hypography is a great place to do this, as demonstrated by this thread. :phones:

 

When you run DC current through a brine solution you get chlorine and sodium hydroxide. I've done it my self much the the horror of my chemistry teacher and it's how chlorine gas is made in industry. I'm not real sure how AC current figures in but intuitively it looks like you would get a mixture of hydrogen and oxygen at each electrode unless you run it through brine. Chlorine is a yellowish gas that has a really "STRONG" oder it doesn't take much to ruin your day:hihi:

 

Electrochemistry Encyclopedia --- Brine electrolysis

[redeagle]

Freeztar, you are correct. Not knowing his credentials, I should not have should not have made a statement based on them. Retrospectively I see that i was using the very same tactics for critising him that I was trying point out that he was using in the forum. For that I do appologize to both Jay-qu and the viewers of this forum.

 

Because I do stand firm of providing documentation I will compile my resources and prepare a statement based on them. I will try to have it posted by the middle of next week.

 

Thankyou for your constructive criticism.

 

Hind-sights are always 20/20.

[Moontanman]

Can anyone comment on this link? Is it true or just pie in the sky?

 

Andrija Puharich: Water Decomposition by AC Elecrolysis >

[freeztar]

Not knowing his credentials, I should not have should not have made a statement based on them. Retrospectively I see that i was using the very same tactics for critising him that I was trying point out that he was using in the forum. For that I do appologize to both Jay-qu and the viewers of this forum.

 

Because I do stand firm of providing documentation I will compile my resources and prepare a statement based on them. I will try to have it posted by the middle of next week.

 

Thankyou for your constructive criticism.

 

Hind-sights are always 20/20.

 

And for that, you earn my utmost respect sir! :phones:

[freeztar]

When you run DC current through a brine solution you get chlorine and sodium hydroxide.

 

That may be the case, but then, where does the O2 come from?

 

Chlorine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

How has Turtle been able to produce O2 and H2 via the annode and cathode? Where is the chlorine in his system?

 

Again, what are the chemical equations?

[Jay-qu]

On the first page of the forum you promptly state that AC will not cause electrolysis. Then you claim that AC current will undo what it just did.

 

When asked to justify your claim with scientific facts you avoided the issue all together. You seemed to get defensive about your "I think" rather than providing information confirming your statement or asking for other's opinion. EDIT "I stand corrected about the post I was alluding to. I have reread it and understand that you did ask for corrections if necessary"

 

I'm not trying to put you down about what you said just trying to get you to defend your information not your pride. After all we wouldn't have science if nobody ever asked why.

 

 

Thanks for the correction, it is good that you question it, for I was wrong - but I'm sure this doesn't hold true in all cases. This may be a bad reference but I once saw a Mythbusters episode where both Adam and Jamie had to attempt a jail break. They both tried using electrolysis on the bars of the cell, one used DC the other used AC. The DC reduced the thickness of the bar, while the AC seemed to only cook the electrolyte (salsa in this case :phones:)

[redeagle]

Can anyone comment on this link? Is it true or just pie in the sky?

 

Andrija Puharich: Water Decomposition by AC Elecrolysis >

 

U.S. Patent 4394230

 

This website is a brief description of a patent.

 

The device looks oddly like the electrolysis spark plug that was never proved to public view to function in high enough volume to power a large engine. Though it is possible that it was produced and the patent was purchased and shelved like the 100MPG carburator.

 

I know I read on a commentary of a Stanley Meyer interview that when asked about his research on a similar spark plug he said that he was still in the testing phase. I do not know of the extent of the continuation of research by his brother since Stanley died.

[Moontanman]

That may be the case, but then, where does the O2 come from?

 

Chlorine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

How has Turtle been able to produce O2 and H2 via the annode and cathode? Where is the chlorine in his system?

 

Again, what are the chemical equations?

 

If you had looked at the link I provided you would have seen the reaction described in detail. Chlorine collects at the anode and hydrogen collects at the cathode and sodium hydroxide collects in the water around the cathode. You have to use a brine solution for this to happen. Sodium hydroxide is produced instead of oxygen.

[freeztar]

If you had looked at the link I provided you would have seen the reaction described in detail. Chlorine collects at the anode and hydrogen collects at the cathode and sodium hydroxide collects in the water around the cathode. You have to use a brine solution for this to happen. Sodium hydroxide is produced instead of oxygen.

 

Indeed, looking at the equations in the wiki on Cl I linked to previously, it's spelled out pretty obviously.

 

Overall process: 2 NaCl (or KCl) + 2 H2O → Cl2 + H2 + 2 NaOH (or KOH)

 

This is for the specific purpose of gas extraction though.

 

Chlorine can be manufactured by electrolysis of a sodium chloride solution (brine). The production of chlorine results in the co-products caustic soda (sodium hydroxide, NaOH) and hydrogen gas (H2). These two products, as well as chlorine itself, are highly reactive.

 

I'll have to look at this more tomorrow, or as time permits, as I'm way past my tired zone (and bed time).

[redeagle]

I found one thing about AC in electrolysis today: only produced gas at an ideal voltage acquired through a 30amp variac transformer. However it was not enough to collect and burn test, and an immense amount of heat was created.

 

When I can get my hand on some supplies i'm going to try a modified wave through the use of diodes. Procedures to be tested as follows:

 

I will set up two identical electrolysis chambers.

Wire them as parallel structures splitting the lead lines lead lines from the transformer.

Use a common neutral line.

Place an overated diode capable of stopping reversed flow of electricity (will refer to an electrician for correct diodes) in the independant portion of the lead lines. Note they will be placed in opposite flow directions.

Once the connections are made and verified then i will continue to testing phase.

 

Testing procedures: 1)power the variac transformer 2) crank of the voltage slowly. 3)pray

 

Ideal results: The positive and negative portions of the sine wave will induce a current in their respective chambers using an alternating current without first rectifying to DC. the gap between each respective pulse will idealy allow the bubbles to float off the plates before the next pulse goes through.

 

Actual results: TBD keep your fingers crossed.

[redeagle]

My diode pack worked. It allowed me to utilize the same alternating current to power parellel electrolysis chambers. I used an array of 200V rectifing diodes to separate the current. Connected the seperated current through respective electroysis chambers to the neutral line from my transformer. it actually works a little two well, we can't keep the rubber caps on the test chambers because of the pressure.

 

Start with low voltage and low amperage. then work your way up.

 

my next test on the control side will be with rotary pots instead of the transformer.

 

pictures to come soon

[Jay-qu]

Could you possibly give us a diagram? Do you have crocodile clips? ( its a handy program for drawing circuit diagrams)