Placebo

[matrixscarface]

How could a placebo work? its clear and obvious that they do work.. if your a non believer, just look at mythbusters about the sea sickness.. placebo's came into play and actually work. im thinking a neurological affect.. anyone know for sure?

[InfiniteNow]

The healing power of a thought is pretty amazing. The neural setup is a lot like expectations.

 

Let's say you are going to a party and expect to have an aweful time. Well, oddly enough, you generally do 90% of occurances.

 

Now, let's say you go to a party and you really want to have a wonderful time. Well, you generally will because you've decided in advance to do this.

 

See also: Self-fulfilling prophecy

 

 

There's been tons of research on the placebo effect, and more or less, it shows that more often than chance, if we think the "sugar pill" will heal us, we will feel healed. EDIT: Will "be" healed.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Placebo_effect

 

 

 

There's also some cool research on electro-convulsive therapy (ECT) involving the expectations of the participant on who is delivering the shocks and how intensity is measured and perceived...

 

 

I don't have a full explanation, but it does involve a pretty cool interplay between the conscious mind, the unconscious mind, and our biology. Now, the reason I have a tough time offering explanation is because I have not yet arrived at a suitable explanation for "what is a conscious mind?" nor "what is an unconscious mind?"

[billg]

I think it's important to remember we are a single organism. Our brain and our body are all part of the same system. If you think of our higher brain, our conscious mind, as being separate from the subconscious brain that regulates our body via hormones and other signals, then it's impossible to understand how a placebo might work from a materialist perspective. But our higher brain is not separated from the rest of our brain. Some parts of our brain that have subconscious activity, but it affects our conscious thought: for example, the suprachiasmatic nucleus (SCN) has a direct connection with the eye, and when it picks up low levels of light around dusk, it releases chemicals that make us feel tired. The placebo effect, I think, is the reverse of this - it's when we consciously believe we are going to get better, which gives "encouragement" to parts of our brain that regulate healing, and optimises them. This implies that when we are sick, parts of our brain that regulate health are working at a sub-optimal level - being inhibited by our conscious or preconscious brain - and the placebo removes this inhibition.

 

This isn't the result of any empirical evidence, but it's certainly plausible, and the only theory of placebo action I've heard of.

[InfiniteNow]

for example, the suprachiasmatic nucleus (SCN) has a direct connection with the eye, and when it picks up low levels of light around dusk, it releases chemicals that make us feel tired.

Melatonin

 

 

The placebo effect, I think, is the reverse of this - it's when we consciously believe we are going to get better, which gives "encouragement" to parts of our brain that regulate healing, and optimises them.

Sort of. This reminds me of "smile therapy," popularized on television show called Ally McBeal a few years back. When the happy chemicals in our brain are released, it causes muscles in our face to reorient somewhat and results in a smile and lessened tension around the eyes and behind the ears. By smiling consciously (intentionally), the same mechanisms and muscles and nerve cells are used, and the happy chemicals are released after the smile (instead of before it as a trigger)... It's a very minor effect, but occurs all the same.

 

I liken it to something like hydraulics... push here, something happens over there, and works in both directions.

 

 

There actually is a whole world of literature on the placebo effect. Google can take you on a fantastic voyage when searching with this term. Here are a few decent ones...

 

http://www.placebo.ucla.edu/

http://www.fda.gov/fdac/features/2000/100_heal.html

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/medicalnews.php?newsid=29624

http://symptomresearch.nih.gov/chapter_1/sec2/cmms2pg1.htm

[Drip Curl Magic]

as a great man once said "you create the reason for your existance"

 

Reality is only perception deep.

 

Percieve that you are well... and you will be fine.

[hallenrm]

If it's all the play of mind and conciousness, any chemical substance or an action should be equally effective.

 

Is it so?

[billg]

For a drug or medicine to be approved, it has to be shown to have a greater than mere placebo effect. "Percieve that you are well... and you will be fine" is not accurate, because the placebo effect has only a limited effect on actual healing, and a larger effect on pain relief. The mind may, in extraordinary circumstances, be able to totally block out pain - as in the accounts of solider with who had limbs blown off but remained conscious and experienced no pain - but merely perceiving that your leg isn't blown off isn't going to change the fact that you can't walk and are in serious danger of dying of blood loss. Similarly, perceiving that you are well and don't have cancer is not going to help you if you do. The placebo effect certainly doesn't compare to drugs that have been clinically tested and approved.

[Drip Curl Magic]

I believe, that at this point in our evolution... we are limited. I think we have more control than we believe.

 

eventually, I want to prove that it is possible to do more than just block pain out.

 

look at stephen hawking. He was supposed to die so long ago. But he just didn't.

 

No medical science can explain it.

 

I think he has an amazingly strong mind... and is just determined to live.

 

mentality plays a far larger role on the physical realm than any of us think.

[InfiniteNow]

I believe, that at this point in our evolution... we are limited. I think we have more control than we believe.

I like where you're heading with your ideas DCM (not that this matters at all to you, just wanted to mention it...). It might change the magnitude of the issue if you replace the word "we" with "I." It's a good place to start anyway...

 

 

mentality plays a far larger role on the physical realm than any of us think.

No. I think the role it plays is very large indeed. This concept has come up in another thread recently, but our emotions have a very direct impact on our immune system. There have also been a bunch of studies recently discussing people actually dying from a "broken heart." Pretty cool stuff...

 

 

Anyway, keep on keepin' on. :naughty:

[Drip Curl Magic]

I like where you're heading with your ideas DCM (not that this matters at all to you, just wanted to mention it...).

 

it matters a great deal to me when people are able to connect with me on my thought process.

 

Thank you for the acknowledgment (if that's even the right word).:)

[Michaelangelica]

not exactly a placebo but it does demonstrate the power of the body to heal.

Guided imagery helps in healing : Health

:evil:

At this point I think it is my time to confess and seek absolution

 

When I was a psychiatric nurse in a TB ward (many years ago , needs musical annotation here). We had a poor old guy that used to suffer from lots of pain.

The doc put him on lots of stuff but it was beginning to get dangerous. Finally he spat the dummy and told the Patient:-

"I will give you the strongest painkiller known! BUT HEAR THIS (If Terry Pratchett can do it why can't I?) YOU WILL ONLY BE ALLOWED ONE EVERY THREE HOURS".

The new drug worked miraculously.

But toward the end of the three hour period the whining and pleading would start.

"Please Nurse can't I have it a little bit earlier?"

"NO WAY What did the DOC say? This is Powerful stuff !"

When he finally got his medication his pain quickly disappeared.

 

Of course we were all in on the act/drama, and used to milk it for all it was worth.

The pills were sugar.

 

I wonder if that Nursing Behaviour would get past an ethics committee today?

 

Perhaps I should have posted this in the Pain thread?

[HydrogenBond]

If the placebo affect can create, in the mind healing, is there a mirror placebo affect where sickness can be created via a placebo suggestion? For example, say we made up a placebo condition or disease. Many people will not get sick since it is only a placebo suggestion. But will others take the placebo disease and get sick? Is it possible the same people who can be cured with a placebo also took the placebo suggestion? Is it sort of mind game loop.

 

This should be investigated since the doctors oath is to do no harm. But if reporting a condition partially creates a condition, then they would have to figure out a way to filter the information to minimize the placebo. What comes to my mind is breast cancer, which is very serious. Is there a placebo affect going on that is increasing the rate? There is no guaranteed cure so there is no medicine placebo with enough instilled confidence to turn the tide. So the second half of the placebo affect would not be obvious yet.

[Michaelangelica]

If the placebo affect can create, in the mind healing, is there a mirror placebo affect where sickness can be created via a placebo suggestion?

? Is it possible the same people who can be cured with a placebo also took the placebo suggestion? Is it sort of mind game loop.

 

This should be investigated since the doctors oath is to do no harm. But if reporting a condition partially creates a condition, then they would have to figure out a way to filter the information to minimize the placebo.

 

What comes to my mind is breast cancer, which is very serious. Is there a placebo affect going on that is increasing the rate? There is no guaranteed cure so there is no medicine placebo with enough instilled confidence to turn the tide. So the second half of the placebo affect would not be obvious yet.

Most definately placebos can work both ways, for good or ill. Although liguistically palacebos are seen as benine

Australian Aboriginies usesd to have a "Pointing The Stick" cursing ceremony to kill a member of their Nation/tribe that was out-of-line. It worked totally by auto-suggestion and was deadly & effective.

 

Another story a friend had cancer (20 years ago).

She was refered to an oncologist. She said the oncologist's waiting room was like a morgue, gloomy with even a picture of vultures in the desert on the wall.

She told the oncologist she wanted to treat the cancer naturally with diet herbs etc. He screamed and yelled at her "If you want to die you don't need my help"!! etc etc

 

She went to another oncologist, bright, cheery waiting room. He said "Well I don't know, but if that's what you want, I'll do a deal with you. You do what you want but I need to see you evey month."

The deal was made.

She changed her life style completly- vegetarian, organic, bio-dynamic, herbs vitamins, exercise etc. I doubt if many could make such massive changes and keep with the regime.

The Doc said things are going well let's see you ever two months

Then 3 months, then 6, 12, every two years etc

She is still alive and clear of cancer.

I wonder if she would be, if she gave in to the bulling of the first oncologist?

 

I am often annoyed with people (radio interviewers etc) who say "well don't give people "False Hope" "that a herb will help them. That is utter tosh. There is no such thing as 'False' Hope only hope and no hope. You can quote me on that.

 

As for breast cancer, all organoclorines acumulate in fatty tissues.

All are cancenogenic.

The mamalian breasts are fatty tissues producing fatty milk, often laced with organoclorines.

What do you think might be a big breast cancer risk?

 

possible the same people

Dont kid youself that it is suggestable people only, that respond to placebos.

There is a massive amount of Behavirioral Science evidence to suggest that even minor suggestions can effect the outcomes of tighly controlled experiments. Even postgraduate research on the intelligence of rats! That's why we now have double blind studies.

When we start giving kids tags -"intelligent' dumb" "late bloomer"- these also become self-fulfilling prophesies.

Even "I'm going to die when I'm sixty" is a play waiting for the appropriate ending.