IrishEyes Posted July 8, 2004 Report Posted July 8, 2004 I was reading through some of the threads in the various groups, and I came across EVOLUTION. The description for this thread is "Theories of how life evolved - is there life elsewhere in the Universe?". Now to be honest, I haven't read every post from every thread in this topic, so I'm hoping you guys can help me out on this question. I would like to keep this OUT of the realm of philosophy/humanities - i do NOT want to argue whether or not there is a God. I don't want to discuss specifically *how* life evolved or did not evolve on this planet. I want to specifically address the second part of the description - IS THERE LIFE ELSEWHERE IN THE UNIVERSE? I want everyone to feel free to post their personal thoughts and ideas on this topic, so i'd personally like to suspend the strict interpretation of "proof required" FOR THIS THREAD ONLY. However, please be willing and able to supply us with your honest thoughts if you present an idea that may seem off-the-wall to most of us. I don't want anyone to feel that they will be ridiculed for their thoughts in this thread, and I want some discussion!! For the sake of clarification, and for understanding, please include in your post how you are defining 'life'. This will (hopefully) not turn into a discussion of what life is or is not, but it will help others undersand what you are intending if you assert that 'there is LIFE on Venus', for example!
Freethinker Posted July 8, 2004 Report Posted July 8, 2004 WOW, you don't ask much do you? Define "life" without discussing it, forget proof, don't bring up how life might have started, no philosophical discourse, ... but I will give it my best while staying within the parameters established. Are WE the only life in the world? NO!
Tormod Posted July 8, 2004 Report Posted July 8, 2004 FT, you forgot the "please include in your post how you are defining 'life'." part. I think that the odds that there is life elsewhere in the universe is very good. In fact, I think the best proof of life in the universe is that we are here on Earth. With about 200 billion galaxies, each with perhaps 100-200 billion stars, I simply can't believe that life came about only on this planet. The Earth is not an isolated place in the universe - nor is our solar system, or our galaxy for that matter - and I feel confident that life is very common. I don't know if I have a good definition of "life". I think there are forms of life out there which we can't even begin to comprehend. Hey, there are life forms on our own planet that we hardly understand. The carbon-based life "as we know it" mantra is perhaps the simplest solution in our part of the universe. But life could equally well be silicon-based. We discussed somewhere else whether it is a requirement for life that there must be "awareness" and "consciousness". I think those are very human terms, and I don't think there is a need to narrow down what "life" is just by observing ourselves. The main problem, obviously, is that we have no evidence of life elsewhere. Tormod
lindagarrette Posted July 9, 2004 Report Posted July 9, 2004 Seems we have already dismissed the probability of silicon based life. As to other forms of carbon-based life so far undetected, the consensus is that all life on earth originated from one source, a single RNA molicule that was able to replicate itself. If not, there would be other strands of DNA out there somewhere on the planet. Although the probability of life in the universe is 1, since that has been proven, the probability of it happening again is awfully infinitessimal when you take into consideration all the variable that have to be in place. The probability of extra terrestrial intelligence is even more remote. In my educated opinion, we're it. The window of opportunity for discovery by remote communication is almost non-existant. By the time a civilization developes radio waves, it quickly progresses beyone such elementary means, as we already have.
Freethinker Posted July 9, 2004 Report Posted July 9, 2004 Originally posted by: TormodFT, you forgot the "please include in your post how you are defining 'life'." part.No I didn't, I explained life the only way you can if you can't use philosophy or proof, Here let me repeat it in case you missed it above. There. See? lol.
Freethinker Posted July 9, 2004 Report Posted July 9, 2004 Originally posted by: lindagarretteSeems we have already dismissed the probability of silicon based life.Actually, I think Tormod just mentioned that. Originally posted by: TormodThe carbon-based life "as we know it" mantra is perhaps the simplest solution in our part of the universe. But life could equally well be silicon-based. TormodYep! I agree that it would be wrong to use a carbon based prejudice. I was always curious as to what new data they have on the enzymes "living" around sulphur vents on the bottom of the ocean. As to other forms of carbon-based life so far undetected, the consensus is that all life on earth originated from one source, a single RNA molicule that was able to replicate itself. If not, there would be other strands of DNA out there somewhere on the planet.I have to disagree with this statement to some extent. Especially based on new findings that life started relatively early in the Earth's history. I don;t think we can reject the potential of development of "life" at some early stage that just proved incompatible with Earth's developmental path. Perhaps too much gravity, heat, light, cold, dark, ... that it did not get more than an early foot hold. There would be little chance of finding any remnant of it, especially since we would not have a clue as to what we would be looking for. But we may find life on another planet that was so totally different from ours that a similar life did survive and oour basic type perished. Although the probability of life in the universe is 1, since that has been proven, the probability of it happening again is awfully infinitessimalBut greater than zero. And statistically that puts the chances in the possible range. Just as taking an average life span. Let's say it's 75 yrs. When one is born, it automatically is part of the set of those living longer. Statistically it's chances of being one of those that lives a long life is infinitely greater than it's chances of being in the set of those that are not born at all. In my educated opinion, we're it. I don't see any way that stance can be reasonably held. To state that it is impossible for ONE OTHER intellegent entity ANYWHERE in the entire universe for an infinite period of time.
Tormod Posted July 9, 2004 Report Posted July 9, 2004 Originally posted by: lindagarretteSeems we have already dismissed the probability of silicon based life. Linda, what do you mean by this? Silicon is AFAIK an element which has many properties similar to carbon. Although the probability of life in the universe is 1, since that has been proven, the probability of it happening again is awfully infinitessimal when you take into consideration all the variable that have to be in place. It is proven simply by the fact that there is life on Earth. Amir Aczel's book "Probability 1" proved that it also must exist elsewhere (if one can accept his reasoning, of course). I often see the question, "what are the chances it will happen again" and find it a bit amusing (no offense, Irish). But what if we are among the "agains"? That is highly likely in my opinion. I for one am very excited about the current exploration of Saturn, and look forward to the Huygens probe which will visit Titan in January next year. We might n0ot find direct evidence of life, but we already know there are plenty of hydrocarbons and frozen methane there - two elements of life. Tormod
IrishEyes Posted July 9, 2004 Author Report Posted July 9, 2004 no offense, Irish none taken. was just a bit bored that morning, and checking through some old posts, and realized that though we have had vaguely similar discussions before, we haven't actually addressed where the people here stand on the issue. And yes, freeT, i agree Define "life" without discussing it, forget proof, don't bring up how life might have started, no philosophical discourse, ... that is kinda rough, but I hope you can understand my intent. I wanted a thread that did not get lost in the usual fight over where life came from, because I really don't care for the purpose of this thread. And I don't want the thread lost in rants about God or no God. And i want people to feel free to bring up their personal ideas without fearing the dreaded "GIVE US PROOF" monster that roams these hallowed halls, eating all thoughts that are not supported by 15 published works by reputable Nobel laureates... I just wanted to dispense with the ridicule of 'far-fetched' ideas, just for this thread, and let people express some ideas on this subject that they may normally keep to themselves because they have 'no proof'. If Tormod is diametrically opposed (or should that be "diabolically opposed") to the idea of this thread, he can close it. But as some of the other threads are a little slow right now, I thought this might be a fun way to pass a few days this VERY hot summer.
Tormod Posted July 9, 2004 Report Posted July 9, 2004 Keep your hot summers...here it keeps raining. I think this thread is a very good idea and I think it's fair to ask for discussion with less focus on proof and more on feelings, especially when it is limited to one thread. FT - maybe even you could learn something, you know. Tormod
Freethinker Posted July 9, 2004 Report Posted July 9, 2004 Originally posted by: TormodFT - maybe even you could learn something, you know.I do all the time and always enjoy it. Though often what I learn is that I was right in the first place! :-)
Uncle Martin Posted July 9, 2004 Report Posted July 9, 2004 Originally posted by: Freethinker Though often what I learn is that I was right in the first place! :-) When I become a postamaniac, will my head swell to twice its normal size like FT's?
IrishEyes Posted July 9, 2004 Author Report Posted July 9, 2004 Let's all say a quick prayer to the post-maniacal, swelling head gods that Unc doesn't turn up with this same disease... You should be fine though, Unc...Tormod seems to have suffered no ill effects thus far... But then again, he's been on good behaviour all day because Yvonne visited earlier. *Note to self...figure out a way to get Tormod's wife to visit Forum on a daily basis, results are VERY positive...* ;P
Uncle Martin Posted July 10, 2004 Report Posted July 10, 2004 A thread dedicated to our intuitional or "gut" feeling on whether or not there is life elsewhere in the universe. Alright, I define life as an organized system of molecules that has a metabolism and is able to replicate itself by some means. That which, if deprived of the elements that drive it's metabolism, will die. That is the factor that does not support the "Gaia Hypothesis" in my opinion. True, the planet is a very complex and delicate ecosystem, the planet IS teaming with life, but the planet itself is not alive. As far as Earth is concerned, it seems that once it was established, that life here is virtually impossible to stop. Several catastrophic events of cosmic proportions have maybe come close, but like the weeds in my garden, life finds a way of flourishing. My intuitive belief is that there should be life elsewhere. It seems very improbable that Earth is the only place that life formed. The number of solar systems in the universe, given that current extrasolar planet discoveries indicates "systems" are the rule rather than the exception, is mind boggling. I think the formation of life is likely a rare event, but with billions of billions of potential places for it to happen, it seems unthinkable to me that it hasn't happened elsewhere many times. As rare as the formation of life probably is, that of intelligent life is likely more rare. For this thread I'll define intelligent life as that which is aware of other solar systems and is curious of potential life there. Basically, humans. A planet of mice, cats and dogs would qualify as having life, but they're not curious about Mars or hoping SETI receives an intelligible signal. I think that intelligent life is so rare, and the distances of the cosmos so great, that the odds of ever discovering another intelligent race seem slim indeed. We could be the first, or last, or only species to use EM to transmit data. The evidence would indicate that it is not common. To summarize, my gut feeling is that there is certainly simple life,... possibly(and hopefully) intelligent life,..... and unless we find some microbes in Titan's atmosphere, or whales in Europa's ocean,....or an intelligent EM signal,......etc.... we will likely never know. But it is our nature to keep looking.
Tim_Lou Posted July 11, 2004 Report Posted July 11, 2004 the universe is infinite, and there is a chance that live exists, so, there must be life somewhere else,(anti-particles...at least)(except if the universe isnt infinite) if god creates life, wer most likely the only in the universe.(well, maybe god created life somewhere else that we dont know...) sry about bringing up the god topic...
Tim_Lou Posted July 14, 2004 Report Posted July 14, 2004 for the information given by freethinker in the other topic... it suggests that life could arise from some extreme conditions, and obtain food from chemicals like H2S.... so, there is a great possible that life can arise in some place other than earth, and use chemicals such as methane as food...
Freethinker Posted July 14, 2004 Report Posted July 14, 2004 Originally posted by: Tim_Loufor the information given by freethinker in the other topic... it suggests that life could arise from some extreme conditions, and obtain food from chemicals like H2S.... so, there is a great possible that life can arise in some place other than earth, and use chemicals such as methane as food... Life In The Universe Could Be Just About Everywherehttp://www.spacedaily.com/news/life-04zw.html If planets are abundant in the universe, life may be common. http://www.hq.nasa.gov/office/pao/History/EP-177/ch6-1.html The Universe Fine-Tuned for Lifehttp://quake.stanford.edu/~bai/finetuning.pdf Are we alone in the unimaginably huge Universe? Is the Earth the only planet among billions of planets where life has originated? Both questions seem equally improbable.http://www.spacecentre.no/folder.cfm?aid=33&bid=101 (that last one just for our Fearless Leader!)
Tormod Posted July 14, 2004 Report Posted July 14, 2004 Originally posted by: FreethinkerAre we alone in the unimaginably huge Universe? Is the Earth the only planet among billions of planets where life has originated? Both questions seem equally improbable. <a target=_blank class=ftalternatingbarlinklarge href="http://www.spacecentre.no/folder.cfm?aid=33&bid=101">http://www.spacecentre.no/folder.cfm?aid=33&bid=101</a> (that last one just for our Fearless Leader!) Finally some quality links at this site!
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