Camp of the Saints

[questor]

the title of the thread is that of a book written 30 or so years ago about a peaceful group of Indians who fled repression in their own country and sailed to France to have a better life. this of course, created quite a problem with the French, who were at first sympathetic, but as time wore on, the absorption of a totally different culture became more and more of a burden.

i am speaking just from the smattering of memories i have from a desultory

reading of the book. the reason this has relevance is our own immigration problem. we are surely being invaded by illegal aliens who, if they were armed could almost take over the southern part of our country. they have become part of our government, use our schools, hospitals, tax revenues and are transforming our language. this invasion so far has been relatively peaceful, but as more criminals understand ways to subvert our laws, more gangs come in,and the warfare over the drug trade becomes more widespread, we are going to be in a Hell of a situation. Mexico has become the major purveyor

of drugs to the US, so crime will probably increase exponentially.

what do we do? if you think a wall will stop them, what do you think about the lengthy tunnel found just a couple of weeks ago? we can't stop them, and

Vicente Fox recognizes the illegals are a huge source of income to Mexico, so he will do nothing.

in times past, an invasion of this magnitude would mean war with foreign nationals taking over your country's assets, money, land and government.

does anyone see this as potentially more damaging than the Iraqi imbroglio?

how do you stop people who will not stop coming, or do you not see it as a problem?

[IrishEyes]

I have my own ideas about how damaging this initial post is.

 

questor, I would like to know your national origin. I'd also like for you to tell me where your parents are from. And your grandparents. And your great- grandparents. I want to know your family history at least 5 generations back. Actually, if you don't mind, can you tell me where your family was in 1775? That would really help me to respond to your post in most the appropriate fashion.

 

Thank you for your cooperation.

And NO, I am not kidding. I really am requesting, as an Administrator of this site, that you give me these answers.

[CraigD]

Mexico has become the major purveyor of drugs to the US, so crime will probably increase exponentially…

This is not true. In both money and quantity, the largest illicit drug sold in the US is marijuana, most of which is grown in the US, and distributed by English-speaking Americans.

 

Crossing national border with large quantities of any illicit drug is very risky compared to transporting between states. Like most black market goods, its cost of production is very low compared to the wholesale and retail price, so real estate and labor cost savings Mexico vs. the US are not significant. Also, the US black market is well established, and resistant to foreign competition.

 

This is not to say that illegal immigrants living in the US don’t present many crime problems, although, in my experience, they are more often victims than perpetrators. Because illegal immigrants fear deportation, they are reluctant to report crimes to the police, making them more vulnerable to crime. Many police departments combat this with Spanish-language educational campaign promising immunity from deportation to people who report crimes.

what do we do? if you think a wall will stop them, what do you think about the lengthy tunnel found just a couple of weeks ago? we can't stop them, and Vicente Fox recognizes the illegals are a huge source of income to Mexico, so he will do nothing.

In addition to these issues, US agriculture and labor businesses worry that, were their supply of illegal alien workers curtailed, they would be unable to compete with one another and with foreign importers.

 

On this issue, I find myself in rare agreement with President Bush and many republican congressmen. The solution, I believe, is to legalize the immigration and employment of these laborers at wages similar to the current, illegal ones, regulating travel, social services, work conditions, and gradually raising wages to federal and state minimums.

in times past, an invasion of this magnitude would mean war with foreign nationals taking over your country's assets, money, land and government.

While these immigrants are taking money, they are nearly without exception doing so in exchange for labor, and a much lower wage than US citizens will accept, making them, by the standard economic metric, more productive than US citizens. Most illegal immigrants are not thieves, but workers

does anyone see this as potentially more damaging than the Iraqi imbroglio?

I do not.

 

:hihi: I’m curious, questor: how much contact and experience you have with illegal aliens? Where I live, in the Washington DC area, they are common, and considered by most people to be very trustworthy and hard working. Many white people in my community are suspicious and fearful of blacks, but hardly any feel this way about Hispanics. Although I know many tradespeople who resent having to compete with Hispansics for jobs, they grudgingly admit that most Hispanics are trustworthy and hard workers (and often employ them as day laborers).

[Racoon]

Once again CraigD could run for office :)

 

I don't really like people being here illegally, and feel they should follow proper immigration and naturalization processes.

I understand Why they come over... $$$, for the pursuit of hapiness, and a chance to raise their families.

 

I lived in Venezuela for a year as an exchange student. I speak really good Spanish for a "Gringo" ;) And the Latino culture is something we will benefit from!! There will be bad seeds in every barrel, but like CraigD said, these Latinos are very Family and God oriented. They are people too, and work hard.

 

Lets not forget, We practically Stole Texas, Arizona, and California from Mexico! :hihi:

[TheBigDog]

Lets not forget, We practically Stole Texas, Arizona, and California from Mexico! :hihi:

Say what!?! (Orby has inspired me to become a minimalist)

 

Bill

[IrishEyes]

(Orby has inspired me to become a minimalist)

I can only hope you're joking.:hihi:

[questor]

Irish, i detect a bit of threat to your tone, and i wonder why you are so strongly requesting information from me that i have not heard requested from others. i also wonder what ''damage'' you think my post may have caused? if you see no problem in the immigration situation, that is your opinion. it seems that quite a few people do see potential problems as well as problems already existing. maybe you can explain what you are after?

[IrishEyes]

Irish, i detect a bit of threat to your tone, and i wonder why you are so strongly requesting information from me that i have not heard requested from others. i also wonder what ''damage'' you think my post may have caused? if you see no problem in the immigration situation, that is your opinion. it seems that quite a few people do see potential problems as well as problems already existing. maybe you can explain what you are after?

questor, I wasn't asking for a discussion. I was asking for answers.

My tone contains no threat at all. It simply states that I am requesting that you answer the questions.

My feelings and opinions about the current immigration situation, nor the feelings of other people about the immigration situation, have no bearing whatsoever on the information that I very specifically requested from you.

[questor]

Craig, you may be interested in this article:

 

''Mexico is the principal transit country for South American cocaine entering the United States; an estimated 70 percent of the U.S.-bound cocaine shipments pass through its territory. Mexico is by far the leading foreign source of marijuana consumed in the United States and, together with Colombia, one of the principal sources of heroin. Mexico is also a major producing and transit point for methamphetamine and other synthetic drugs.

 

Mexican authorities seized over 20 metric tons of cocaine hydrochloride (HCl) during 2003. Marijuana interdiction continued at an impressive pace, with authorities confiscating over 2,019 metric tons, over 27 percent of the potential marijuana production in 2002 (7,900 metric tons). In addition, authorities confiscated 165 kilograms of heroin, 189 kilograms of opium gum, and 652 kilograms of methamphetamines.

 

Source: Bureau for International Narcotics and Law Enforcement Affairs, International Narcotics Control Strategy Report, 2003, March 2004.''

[questor]

Irish, i find your request out of order. you will have to tell me why my family has anything to do with my post on this site. if we were having a friendly conversation, i wouldn't mind contributing this information, but i think you have other motives here. if your position as administrator and the site rules empower you to make such a request, i would like to know about it. if you have a problem with what i wrote and you are well versed on the subject, just go ahead and voice your objections. i will back up my statements.

[C1ay]

do you not see it as a problem?

Nope. A very small minority of the aliens you are referring to have anything to do with the drug trade. They should not all be treated as if the whole lot is guilty when they are not. The vast majority come here to work, not to cause trouble. Locally they end up with many jobs that employers have trouble filling. It keeps the local cost of living down because these employers don't have to offer artificially high wages, at the expense of increased prices to consumers, to attract workers. If not for terrorists they could just open the borders completely for all I care.

[Celeste]

I happen to see it as huge problem and agree with you questor.

 

Here in Utah, the Hispanic population has more then doubled in the last 4 years,(estimated around 450,00 in 2005) a large number of them are illegals.

Officials estimate about 85,000 residents of Utah are in this country illegally.

Our hispanic prison population has increased by 50% in the last few years. Drugs, violence and gangs are becoming daily news.

Looking at the government and state reports privy in epidemiology, the drug, gang, and disease problems with immigrates, legal and illegal, are astounding.

Need we mention that 90% of the terrorists have been immigrates?

What some people disregard as unimportant are the very things I'm most afraid of.

And what scares me more is that in the end, our government, law enforcement, state officials will never be able to control the problems associated with immigration.

 

What is also very upsetting to me is that many US citizens are commiting a felony themselves because they don't know the laws or they turn the other cheek because they feel sorry for the hard working, law abiding illegal immigrants. Illegal means illegal no matter how you define it.

 

Section 274 of the Immigration and Nationality Act, USC 1324 states:

 

A person (including a group of persons, business, organization, or local government) commits a federal felony when she or he:

* assists an alien s/he should reasonably know is illegally in the U.S. or who lacks employment authorization, by transporting, sheltering, or assisting him or her to obtain employment, or

* encourages that alien to remain in the U.S. by referring him or her to an employer or by acting as employer or agent for an employer in any way, or

* knowingly assists illegal aliens due to personal convictions.[/QUOTE]

 

My biggest problem lies in immigrants sneaking in illegally. I say sneaking in because it reminds me of cockroaches.

When my father migrated here from Holland, they did so legally and became US citizens.

My brother is married to an Hispanic. His wives family migrated from Mexico in 1974, and did so legally and became US citizens. Why is it that some people can not see the importance of doing things legally? US citizens have to abide by the laws of the land, but were supposed to turn the other cheek when it comes to illegal immigration and the bullshit that comes with it. Yes, it might be the minority of the immigrates bringing the problem, but the minority infects the whole like a parasite.

 

Personally, I'm tired of having to repeat my order at Mcdonalds and every other fast food chain 6 times because they refuse to learn OUR language.

I'm tired of calling my bank, my mortgage company, my phone company etc. over and over until I get an English speaking representative because if I ask someone Hispanic for one, some get offended and act like I'm supposed to know their language. Excuse me! your in the US now.

 

On a final note, I want to clearify that I have NO problem with any race living, prospering, and enjoying the benefits of US soil.

By all means come on over....but don't expect me to respect or accept you if you do so illegally or refuse to learn the English language or live by the very laws I have to. And if your bringing your drug and gang/terrorist b.s., don't expect me to sit back and allow you parasites to have a free lunch.

[Tormod]

if your position as administrator and the site rules empower you to make such a request, i would like to know about it.

 

She has the right to ask anything she wants, basically. And you have agreed to respond (I suggest you do it via private message) - per our rules.

 

Your initial post seems to be touting racist/hateful ideology and as such needs some qualification or it might be up for deletion.

 

Is that a clear enough answer?

[Tormod]

By all means come on over....but don't expect me to respect or accept you if you do so illegally or refuse to learn the English language or live by the very laws I have to.

 

So much for the melting pot, eh? What a disgrace.

 

Have you ever considered the *reasons* people come over illegally?

[C1ay]

Drugs, violence and gangs are becoming daily news.

And these would not exist without illegal immigration?

 

Personally, I'm tired of having to repeat my order at Mcdonalds and every other fast food chain 6 times because they refuse to learn OUR language.

Is it because they refuse or just haven't been here long enough? Would you prefer that McDonald's raise it's wages high enough to attract a more U.S. centric workforce and charge you $10 for that Big Mac so they can afford to pay those wages?

[TheBigDog]

So much for the melting pot, eh? What a disgrace.

You need to look at both sides on this one Tormod. 19% of our prison population is comprised of illegal immigrants. Practically none of whom are imprisoned for being illegal immigrants, but for committing other crimes in the US. By contrast illegals comprise around 3% of the population. What does that say about the crime rate among the illegal population? I have no problem being a melting pot, but lets not be blind to reality. Why is the US the place all these people are coming to? Have you seen the immigration policies of Mexico and Canada? (I include Mexico because many of the illegals are from countries south of Mexico)

 

http://www.canadaimmigrationvisa.com/visatype.html

http://www.mexperience.com/liveandwork/immigration.htm#ImmPolicy

 

Note how both countries specify exactly the type of people who are eligable to come in and be welcome. Yet if we gripe about illegals coming over and commiting crimes we are acting disgracefully? Canada only wants professionals who have a mastery of their native languages. Yet when we ask those who come here non-english speaking to take the time to learn english we are acting disgracefully?

 

The US is a patsy who rolls over and shows its belly to anyone who wishes to come in and piss on us. And in that process we provide unique opportunity to millions of people to better their lives. And as soon as we make some noise about wanting to take measures to stop the bloodletting that we do to accomidate those who come here illegally we are acting disgracefully? To me the disgrace is letting the illegal immigration get to the point that it has, not trying to correct the problem.

 

There is plenty of opportunity to come to America legally. I know people who employ legal mexican workers seasonally for running their nursury (trees and shrubs). So it is not impossible. People need to have respect for the laws, and make the effort to work within the law. While there is plenty of that happening, we cannot be tolerant of the constant breaking of our immigration laws.

 

Bill

[C1ay]

19% of our prison population is comprised of illegal immigrants.

I'll bet you can't support that statement.