Camp of the Saints

[TheBigDog]

I'll bet you can't support that statement.

I am working on the sourcing for that statistic. If I cannot support it, then I will recant it in no uncertain terms. But what would be an acceptable number of convictions for non-immigrations crimes by people who are here illegally?

 

Bill

[C1ay]

I am working on the sourcing for that statistic. If I cannot support it, then I will recant it in no uncertain terms. But what would be an acceptable number of convictions for non-immigrations crimes by people who are here illegally?

 

Bill

They're no different than the people that are here legally, crime is unacceptable from all. It is not a reason to treat the remainder of illegal immigrants as if they are the reason that some of them commit crime. There are bad apples in all groups of people but they are not a reason to treat the whole group as bad.

[TheBigDog]

They're no different than the people that are here legally, crime is unacceptable from all. It is not a reason to treat the remainder of illegal immigrants as if they are the reason that some of them commit crime. There are bad apples in all groups of people but they are not a reason to treat the whole group as bad.

The whole group has already committed a crime. They are illegal aliens. Is that not a crime? I would love to have people coming to the US by the terms allowed by US law. We are not unaccomidating. In fact we are the most accomidating country in the world. But we cannot penalize those who would seek to come here honestly by making it easier to get here illegally - with the same or greater benefits. If we do not treat it as the crime that it is then we are doing a disservice to the law abiding people who seek to enter the US through proper channels.

 

Bill

[questor]

Tormod, i did answer Irish's question. the question has no bearing on this thread and my family is my own business. why not let her fight her own battles and tell me why she needs that information? are you telling me i'm compelled to answer a question that an administrator asks?

a few more links for those who are uninformed about our illegal immigration

problem:

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2005-08-30-border-emergency_x.htm

http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/08/12/newmexico/

http://www.city-journal.org/html/14_1_the_illegal_alien.html

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=43275

 

as far as i know, the people coming across our border are the same race as i am. how does that make me a racist? one of our worst problems are American citizens who think it's great to have cheap labor, but don't have a clue about the price we really have to pay.

[Racoon]

I don't want to get in the middle of a Blast Zone here, so I guess I'll tread lightly.

 

I Agree with Clay, Inasmuch as Most of these illegals are good, decent folks. :eek2:

And as consumers and employers, we reap the benefit from their hard work at minimal pay.

I also Agree with Irish. We are all from immigrant families here in the USofA,

And we shouldn't try and Bash these guys, or be Zenophobic.

BUt...

1) They are breaking the law by not going through proper immigration!

2) Since they are undocumented workers, they receive money Under the Table, and therefor Pay No Taxes!

3) The more of them there are, the more strain they put on our already underfunded and overstretched Social Services. We can't take care of the ones who are here Legaly

4) Also, with so many here, and not all able to find jobs, there will be that many more who resort to Gangs, Drug Pushing, Prostitution, and the like.

5) We also are not sure of the Long term consequences of such a vast and illegal influx. ie When they're gonna want Social Security, Medicare, and a big slice of the Governments Budget.

6) Next time we have a recession, Citizens here Would work these menial jobs in order to have an income when they get laid off or fired; only to find an illegal for doing it even cheaper.

7) Too much of a swing in Demographics might cause domestic violence.

Look whats happened in France!

 

Having Postulated that, It is indeed VERY TRICKY situation.

However, as the Economy and Standard of living in Mexico improves, there will be less who want/need to cross the border.

 

Guess I'm trying to see both sides of the coin. :)

Regardless of what I post here, It's not gonna really change the situation.

[Tormod]

are you telling me i'm compelled to answer a question that an administrator asks?

 

An admin or a moderator, when the question is asked in that function. Please read our rules.

[Celeste]

Originally Posted by Tormod

So much for the melting pot, eh?

 

Were talking about those that are blatently breaking the laws.

Do you realize that very few of the Hispanics in the US favor increasing the flow of the legal immigration from Latin America? Let alone the illegal immigration? Even immigrants in the US are seeing the crisis at hand.

According to INS, the illegal-alien population in 2005 stood at least 10-12 million, (1 illegal per 25 US citizens), a number that is growing by half a million a year... Included in this estimate are approximately 78,000 (estimate 2003) illegal aliens from countries who are of special concern in the war on terror. Not to mention the other 20,000 or so violent gang members and drug dealers.

Polls show that most Americans want something done about immigration, but are afraid to speak out because they don't want to be labeled as racist, or anti-immigrant.

 

 

Originally Posted by Tormod

What a disgrace.

 

What a Disgrace? Thats pretty harsh. This comment is derogatory, offensive and flaming to say the least Tormod.

Again, Were talking about those that are blatently breaking the laws. I see nothing disgraceful in being law abiding and wanting to preserve and speak the English language.

 

 

Originally Posted by Tormod

Have you ever considered the *reasons* people come over illegally?

 

Yes I have. My fathers family were made prisoners of war by the Nazi's. Had everything they owned taken and destroyed, but they still prepared first by learning English and then came to the US legally.

 

 

Originally posted by C1ay

And these would not exist without illegal immigration?

 

Yes, but to a lesser degree. Just look at the statistics. Poverty, lack of education, lack of prosperity, and lack of acceptance has shown unmistakable climbs in all crime rates.

 

Is it because they refuse or just haven't been here long enough?

What is wrong with job prerequisites? My cousin couldn't get a job in Japan until he learned their language.

 

Would you prefer that McDonald's raise it's wages high enough to attract a more U.S. centric workforce and charge you $10 for that Big Mac so they can afford to pay those wages?

 

MCDonalds pays equally. They don't discriminate. It's the law.

Again, the solution here would be to enforce prerequisites for employment. Whether one is white, black, yellow, brown, or grey, no speaky the language, no job. BTW, I would happily pay more for a Big Mac if that would save me the hassle of the dozens of wrongs orders I've gotten and the money and time I've wasted on them.

 

To TheBigDog; Nicely said. I see we agree on many things concerning this illegal immigration.

 

Quoted from "Pei" concerning illegal immigration:

The last refuge of those unable to make reasoned arguments based on facts and logic is to resort to slander and name-calling.

In general, the critical responses demonstrate how difficult it is to have a serious, informed, and reasoned exchange on what is, "the most fundamental question about the United States future as a nation and a culture.”

[ughaibu]

Celeste: Your statement, "my cousin couldn't get a job in Japan until he learned their language", is rather odd. If you meant 'there was a particular job in Japan that my cousin only qualified for after learning the language', I can believe you. However, most work available to non-Japanese exploits their ability in their native language and has no requirement to speak or read japanese. In the context of the present arguement, your statement is, at best, misleading.

[C1ay]

as far as i know, the people coming across our border are the same race as i am.

I think that's the point. At some point your family immigrated here just like hordes of others would like to do. I'm sure they would be happy if there were more jobs where they come from but since there isn't, they travel here to do anything they can find to do for whatever someone is willing to pay. All most of them want is work, not trouble.

[C1ay]

What is wrong with job prerequisites? My cousin couldn't get a job in Japan until he learned their language.

This isn't Japan though. I support a requirement for a functional level of English for citizenship but not as a work requirement. As long as their employer is happy with them then it should remain between the worker and his/her employer.

 

Again, the solution here would be to enforce prerequisites for employment. Whether one is white, black, yellow, brown, or grey, no speaky the language, no job. BTW, I would happily pay more for a Big Mac if that would save me the hassle of the dozens of wrongs orders I've gotten and the money and time I've wasted on them.

Are you trying to suggest that the government should set minimum requirements for private employers? We'll have to agree to disagree on that one, I think we already have to many government regulations. Employers should be free to hire and fire as the please regardless of a workers language.

[questor]

I am curious why some are so quick to call others racist when they are not

informed on a particular issue? this is the second time i have been called a racist for making truthful comments. if something is occurring because of a certain group and someone calls attention to it, why would that be racist?

i suppose that if one is called racist, that should forever be a mark against him, and he should be shunned, never mind that he may be correct in his observations. i would say that a proper assessment of a problem can only be made by people who are familiar with the subject being discussed. this particular immigration problem at this time concerns the US, but it could also

become a concern for other countries. at a time when the world is moving toward globalization and the US is rapidly losing ground to other countries because of outsourcing and cheaper labor overseas, the last thing we need is an ever increasing supply of people who are not trained in the technological sciences. some think that cheap labor keeps the price of hamburgers down, they don't understand the costs we pay to maintain cheap labor. i would advise those to read the links i provided so the discussion could have some merit.

[C1ay]

I am curious why some are so quick to call others racist when they are not informed on a particular issue?

That is odd. I got the impression that you are equally prejudiced against all illegal immigrants regardless of race, creed or national origin.

[questor]

Clay, i don't think you have read the links i posted. if you wish i could also provide much more information. how can you say this is no problem when the governors of two border states have declared an emergency?

why not read these?

 

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=24987

http://www.theamericanresistance.com/ref/illegal_alien_numbers.html

[C1ay]

Clay, i don't think you have read the links i posted. if you wish i could also provide much more information. how can you say this is no problem when the governors of two border states have declared an emergency?

why not read these?

 

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=24987

http://www.theamericanresistance.com/ref/illegal_alien_numbers.html

Yes, I looked at your links. The first is about terrorists, not illegal aliens. Terrorists are the only reason I don't support fully open borders anymore :eek2: If we could get rid of terrorists I could care less about the border.

 

Your second link reports that approximately 6% of the U.S. population is made up of illegal immigrants. The only portion of these people I would be concerned with is the trouble makers. The majority are not here for trouble, just work, and that's fine with me. Legalize and tax them like the rest of us if it would make you feel better.

[Celeste]

ughaibu... I don't know all the particulars about his circumstances.

Nor should I have been questioned about it's authenticity. The statement stands in light of job prerequisites and his lack there of.

 

You stated that, "most work available to non-Japanese exploits their ability in their native language and has no requirement to speak or read japanese." Are you implying that if I fly over there tomorrow that I will have no problem getting a job in my current field because of my English speaking abilities? If you are sir, then at best your statement is misleading. As you can see the ability to speak fairly fluently in both languages as my cousin needed to do is alot more probable then you stated and implied.

 

Jobs in Japen:

Consultant:

Intelligent and highly motivated team-players, preferably with previous recruiting or sales eperience University graduates Strong communicators in both English and Japanese

 

Marketing:

Knowledge and Skill Requirements:

Native English speaker with Japanese language skills

Global perspective and understanding of business marketplace

Professional understanding of the outbound Japanese tourism industry and method of doing business in Japan

 

Engineers and PC/networking:

2 years experience, some language skills (minimum 2-kyu spoken Japanese), and a great "bedside manner" with computer users is ongoing. Especially in the current economic recovery of mid-2004, the demand for such people now exceeds supply.

 

Associate Analyst, Research Department:

Requisite skills include Japanese language ability (equivalent to

Proficiency Level 2 or above), numeracy, computer skills,

communicative ability, common sense, initiative and the ability to work well in a group.

 

Account Operations Manager:

A financial printing firm with a client in Minato-ku is looking for an account operations manager starting in September. They are willing to pay 10 million yen plus a maximum 15% bonus. They prefer someone with around level 2 Japanese language fluency, some working knowledge of graphics and reprographics....

 

Secretary to Japanese Lawmaker:

The candidate must be afluent in Japanese...

 

I apologize for the length of this post.

 

<sigh> Is it just me, or does certain aspects of this thread seem to feel like a modern day witch hunt?:eek2:

[Tormod]

Clay, i don't think you have read the links i posted. if you wish i could also provide much more information. how can you say this is no problem when the governors of two border states have declared an emergency?

why not read these?

 

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=24987

http://www.theamericanresistance.com/ref/illegal_alien_numbers.html

 

The links you keep posting lead to articles and sites fueled by racist propaganda. The American Resistance is a supremacist site. I am not going to allow this here at Hypography. Like it or not, it is against our rules.

[Tormod]

<sigh> Is it just me, or does certain aspects of this thread seem to feel like a modern day witch hunt?:eek2:

 

Yes, but who are the witch hunters? Those who argue against you (which is the point of discussion, no?*) or those who are striking out at illegal immigrants as if they are one lump of evil people, with absolutely no scientific data to back up your claims that they are ruining your society.

 

I would like to see a correlation between the social costs of illegal immigrants vs average American poor people, and the amount of violent acts performed by illegal immigrants vs "legal" Americans.

 

And the sources need to be credible.