Camp of the Saints

[Tormod]

What I clearly stated is that breaking the laws is [black and white].

 

This is not true. There is ample evidence that the legal system in the US is anything but black and white. It varies from state to state, even from county to county, from judge to judge.

 

It follows that the treatment and reception of illegal immigrants is also not a black and white issue.

 

You have failed to raise *one* single question about *why* the immigrants are illegal. You one-sidedly point out the *negative* aspects of illegal immigration.

 

You claim that since I point this out, I am *condoning* illegal immigration. I have never said such a thing and you do not know my position on this issue. I live in a country with extremely strict rules on immigration, and where non-caucausians are generally treated horribly bad by the government (we tend to put them in cells at the airport and ship them out on the first available flight). So don't imagine for a second that I don't know what I'm talking about.

 

People who come here in violation of our nation's laws are criminals. The very act of coming here illegally is a federal crime. I won't condone it anymore then I condone racketeering, drug trafficking or kidnapping.

 

This is an extremist view. I ask again, what are the reasons people are coming to the US as illegal immigrants. Is it to engage in criminal activities?

 

Could there be solutions to this problem where the immigration issue is handled not as a criminal problem but a issue of possibilites for economic growth?

 

Have you ever seen a statistic that shows how much the USA would benefit from creating an immigration system that makes it needless to be an "illegal" alien? It owuld be a very interesting statistic indeed.

 

Finally, what role has the US played in creating the need for immigrants to come to the US in the first place, and why do many of them come illegally?

 

If you want a multi-sided discussion all these issues need to be addressed. It is not enough to point out that illegal aliens are a problem. We need to figure out the reasons for why they exist, the reasons the American society treats them as criminals (because that is a choice made by the People, since it is a law).

 

Illegal aliens are not criminals by nature. They are criminals by statutory definiton. When you claim that they are criminal by default you are creating a perfect strawman for derailing the whole issue. We need to look beyond that in order to discuss this.

[Tormod]

are you in a position to determine what is true and what is not?

 

No. But I am in a position to decide what to allow here at Hypography, as is every administrator of this forum.

 

why do you keep saying this is racist?

 

Because most of it is based on biased information with the aim of promoting one-sided, black-painted images of people classified under a brand label of "illegal aliens" while refusing to evaluate any of the concerns of those people. It is racist, or at least bordering on racist, because it assumes that the illegal immigrants are vermin (against which one must carry arms to defend oneself - which is apparently only due to the illegal aliens and not the laws of the USA) and that these vermin only exist to make life difficult for "legal" (and thus superior) Americans.

 

it seems the idea of free speech here depends on who's in charge.

 

Is this a surprise to you? Free speech always depends on who is in charge. I am not denying you free speech. You are free to take your ideas anywhere. But I may decide not to let you publish them here. It is my right and also my duty as both editor and owner of Hypography to take a stand against what I perceive as racist propaganda and this is clearly outlined in our rules. We have also reserved the right to deny *anyone* the right to publish anything here. This is a private site, not a soapbox in Hyde Park.

[Boerseun]

Interesting topic, and not one with a quick solution.

 

In South Africa during Apartheid, a huge barbed electric fence was erected around the country's borders. Keeping SA's discriminative laws in mind (that have been likened to Nazi persecution of Jews etc.), it is interesting to note that those ungodly fences were erected to keep illegal immigrants out! You'd think that if things were really as bad as it were in SA, we'd have to build a fence just to keep our own labourers in! But that got me thinking that the whole immigration problem (as posted in this here thread) is just seeing the interface where poverty and wealth meets from the wrong angle.

 

SA was by any account the country in Africa where the average African had access to good medical services, education, etc. (Obviously, worse than the whites had access to, but still far advanced than what was on offer in, say, Zaire). This, access to these services as well as access to money (in the form of jobs, or even theft - there's no-one to steal from in Zaire) caused pressure for individuals wanting to better themselves to slip into SA illegally. They would've done it legally if the mechanisms existed. Remember, in those days, SA denied Africans immigration to SA. Europeans, of course, were welcomed. But still, the economic forces creating this interface between poverty and relative wealth made it attractive to them. Imagine for a second that one of those immigrants was able to fend for himself, and carve out a niche and is now rolling in dough. He wouldn't want any more immigrants, because they would compete with him for the same jobs/services/etc.

When he came over, he saw the interface from the poor side. A few years later, he's seeing it from the wealthy side, and now all of a sudden it's a 'bad thing'.

 

Same in the US, I guess. The average American frowns upon the issue because they are on the wealthy side of this 'interface' between rich and poor. But a few generations ago, they were in the same position, and experienced it from the 'poor' side - and emigrated to the US in order to better themselves. The fact that they did it legally back then is just splitting hairs - the fact that the pressure of poverty on the one side of the fence and the possibility of a better life on the other side of the fence exists is as real as the moon in the sky. And cross-border movement (be it legal or not) will be a part of life on Earth for as long as there is any difference between the 'haves' and the 'have nots'.

 

Moaning about it will not change it, and if you do have a gripe with them refusing to speak English, I recommend you start brushing up on your Iriquois, or maybe even go and look in your great-grandfather's trunk you've got up in the attic and see if you can find his immigration papers as stamped and approved by the Cherokee.

[questor]

it strikes me as odd that most of the supporters of illegal aliens pouring across our border don't live in the states, or have any price to pay for this problem. they also refuse to believe facts as published and choose to condemn the publishers with name calling. how does this make sense to a rational thinker? i guess this type performance leads to the saying '' Don't try

to confuse my thought process with facts. my mind is made up.''

[Racoon]

Who Boy!!

Thats a lot to Digest....

 

Just want to mention an Illegal Alien killing a family in a minivan while driving down the wrong side of the Highway here outside town cuz' he couldn't read the signs..

Sent a surge of angry mumblings...

 

Questor is right in the fact, that the problem is easier to be Politically Correct about when distanced from it.

 

The Epidemiology IS frightening.. TB has resurfaced..:evil:

 

Then again, the Majority of these people are here for finding honorable work.

 

I hate to think many of those illegal driving around without insurance, liscence, or ability to read signs,

[sanctus]

it strikes me as odd that most of the supporters of illegal aliens pouring across our border don't live in the states, or have any price to pay for this problem.

 

 

I wanted to stay away from this thread as I guess I get too involved, but I just wanted to justify my participation. Do you think you have those problems only in the US? I hope not, and so you see why I feel I'm allowed to say my point of view as well. Because on one point I agree with you there is a problem with immigrants and it's a world-wide one. If we solved that it would mean no more poverty, wars and so on

[Tormod]

it strikes me as odd that most of the supporters of illegal aliens pouring across our border don't live in the states, or have any price to pay for this problem. they also refuse to believe facts as published and choose to condemn the publishers with name calling. how does this make sense to a rational thinker? i guess this type performance leads to the saying '' Don't try

to confuse my thought process with facts. my mind is made up.''

 

This is a perfect example of argument fallacy. The term "illegal aliens pouring across our border" is not based on anything but irrational propaganda and biased thinking. Whose mind is made up?

 

BTW I can only repeat that I have never said I support illegal aliens, so I assume you're not talking to me.

[questor]

Tormod, do you have access to any American newspapers? i know you use the internet. how can you make such a statement as this ?

''"illegal aliens pouring across our border" is not based on anything but irrational propaganda and biased thinking''. how can you see something with your own eyes and deny it exists? who is making the irrational propaganda? is it USA TODAY, all our TV stations, the US government? i don't understand your position. have you read any of the information on the 6 links i have posted? would you post some information or links backing your position?

[Tormod]

Yet another detour, but okay. I take it you want to discredit me so your ideas can stand unchallenged. You're not very good at being challenged, questor. Instead of replying to the questions being raised you simply choose to maintain the position that you and your sources have the truth, and demand counterproof. It is a sad position to take.

 

First of all, I happen to not live in a vacuum but on the same planet as you. Second, I work for a government agency with international connections - both personally and profesionally. Third, I read American papers (and watch American television) every day. Fourth, I have studied and lived in the US for several years and also have a Bachelor of Arts with a major in British and American studies - that means a lot of US history and political science studies. I also happen to live in a country that is a US ally and struggle with immigration problems just like every other country, basically.

 

So...the pouring of immigrants. Are you seeing this with your own eyes? I assume so from the wording of your last post. So, how does it look when "illegal aliens pour across your border"? Does it happen constantly, like a waterfall? How long is the border in question? How many people cross it every day? What is the definition of "pouring across the border"?

 

I don't know which position you want me to back up. I actually have not taken up a position, I have only challenged your one-sided claim that illegal immigrants are a pest. I have read your links, some of which are credible sources, some of which are not.

 

My position would be that illegal immigration is more complex than you seem to think it is, and that to blame the illegal immigrants for the problems of illegal immigration is akin to racism. The problem is extremely complex and difficult, and has both positive and negative aspects. You are only focusing on the negative aspects.

 

This article explains some of the several aspects to be considered when illegal immigration is discussed:

 

Illegal immigrants and the labour market

 

There is a frequent tendency to see illegal immigration and the underground economy as being one and the same. There is also a tendency to see controlling migration flows as being the solution to both. These views are misleading.

 

http://www.oecdobserver.org/news/fullstory.php/aid=190

[InfiniteNow]

Yet another detour, but okay.

Nice post, T. I truly believe that questor's intentions are good, but attitude is bad...

[questor]

Tormod, i have no doubt you are an educated and intelligent man. even more reason for my surprise at your criticism of the position of a great number of Americans on this issue. all the questions you have posed have been answered in the links i posted. these links are there ( along with many more) on google. this leads me to believe you have not taken the time to read them.

your constant predilection to accuse someone of racism when a problem is described also is puzzling. are all critcisms directed toward specific groups racist in your mind? how does one improve if their faults are not pointed out and discussed? if you wish to discuss the problem of illegal immigration in the USA, at least educate yourself as to what is happening. last night on Fox TV, a newscaster showed a border tunnel several thousand feet long dug by illegal aliens.

a storage facility was near the tunnel full of guns, ammunition, cocaine, methamphetamines and various other drugs to be used in America. you're telling me we don't have a serious problem? if you care to discuss the problem further, please get up to speed on the truth. if you find information disproving any of my ''racist'' statements, please post them. the people coming over the border are not trained in technology. when the labor pool is full and we need no more laborers, they will still be here as a large financial burden we cannot afford.

[Tormod]

Questor, you keep dodging my questions. None of the articles you posted address the issue from anything but a negative angle. Did I read them? Yes.

 

Heck, I'll even throw in some comments.

 

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2005-08-30-border-emergency_x.htm

 

This is a news story reporting on a controversial border-closure in New Mexico. But it portrays a "desperate" Governor who sees no end to the inlfux of immigrants. Careful reading of the article shows he needs help to handle the immigrants, he is not opposed to immigration.

 

http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/08/12/newmexico/

 

Same story, basically.

 

http://www.city-journal.org/html/14_1_the_illegal_alien.html

 

A racist and right-wing article which is a complete disgrace to Americans. Just read the final paragraph and ask yourself if you are among the Native Americans.

 

The opening line states that "Some of the most violent criminals at large today are illegal aliens." Did they qualify this statement? If so, where? Maybe you should ask them how they know this.

 

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=43275

 

Another article on another right wing site which portrays illegal immigrants as criminals, but has nothing to say about the reasons for the immigration.

 

Questor, this is *nothing* new. It is ancient as mankind itself. It is the "us vs them" thinking, and you happen to be among the "us" which has claimed the land and now are able to "stand up and fight for your rights".

 

It does not matter how many Americans agree that immigration (and especially illegal immigration) is a problem. It is still possible to discuss immigration, be positive about it, without taking the stand that they are the cause of major surges in crime. It is also possible to ask the question, what is being done about it?

 

If the answer is the hard line as in more police, more firearms, stricter laws, harder punishment - then you are at war with the very people who built your country in the first place.

 

If "most Americans" are opposed to this, then the average intelligent American will know that there are better ways to handle illegal immigrants than to A) brand them as criminals simply because they exists and ;) hit them hard regardless of who they are, what they do and what they represent.

 

Why do I call your attitude racism (note I have never called you a racist)?

 

This is the definition I use:

"practices and attitudes that display dislike or antagonism towards people seen as belonging to particular ethnic groups. Social significance is attached to culturally constructed ideas of difference."

 

In this particular case, the racism is specifically aimed against every person classified as "illegal immigrant" (particularly hispanics), who has entered your country in a way that your country has decided to be illegal.

[Tormod]

your constant predilection to accuse someone of racism when a problem is described also is puzzling.

 

Which other cases are you thinking of?

 

are all critcisms directed toward specific groups racist in your mind?

 

Hateful generalizations about ethnic groups, yes, especially when founded on statistics like "we could build X hospitals if we only didn't have to pay for Y". It is non-constructive.

 

if you wish to discuss the problem of illegal immigration in the USA, at least educate yourself as to what is happening. last night on Fox TV, a newscaster showed a border tunnel several thousand feet long dug by illegal aliens. a storage facility was near the tunnel full of guns, ammunition, cocaine, methamphetamines and various other drugs to be used in America.

 

And not a single "legal" American was involved, correct? Nobody has helped them. Nobody has an interest in seeing an inflow of drugs, selling arms etc in America. And these kinds of acts are only performed by illegal aliens, right? Or am I not right?

 

you're telling me we don't have a serious problem?

 

No, I think you have a very serious problem. Your largest problem is the inability to see more than one side of this issue. You eat the media frenzy raw and listen to the mob. But what are YOU doing about it other than throwing fuel on the fire?

 

if you care to discuss the problem further, please get up to speed on the truth. if you find information disproving any of my ''racist'' statements, please post them.

 

Let's see what "proof" *you* have posted (I have already dealt with your links):

 

the people coming over the border are not trained in technology.

 

You know this how? And what is "technology" in this case?

 

when the labor pool is full and we need no more laborers, they will still be here as a large financial burden we cannot afford.

 

We? As in the richest country in the world? Okay, when is the labor pool full? And does this imply that if it *wasn't* full, then illegal immigration would be okay? No, I thought not.

 

I think you have completely misread my posts. I am taking an issue with you because you are violating our rules and posting links to hateful propaganda (particularly the City Journal site).

 

Am I not discussing the issue with you? Yes, I am. But you are so hung up on seeing the r-word that you are unable to continue the discussion on a rational basis. Instead you try to discredit me.

 

It's no use throwing statistics at me, I've seen plenty of it. Europe is as racist as it gets. I don't need to see more of it. I need to see practical ideas as to how should the problems be solved. Spend your efforts on enlightening people as to how they can help eliminate the problems of illegal immigration rather than placing the blame on a lot of people you don't know anything about except what you read in the papers.

[questor]

Tormod, most Americans ( including myself) are not opposed to immigration, they are opposed to ILLEGAL immigration. you seem to think that we should have no say on who or how many enter our country and under what circumstances. is that also the position of your country? how many illegal

aliens come across your borders each year?

you are correct, most of these articles are negative. does this surprise you? we are dealing with a negative situation. why not produce some positive articles if you can find them?

no one has said ALL illegals are criminals at heart and want to live a life of crime, however they are ILLEGAL when they cross our borders without proper permission. i have not said they are the major cause of crime, but i know they have vicious gangs who attack and kill others with machetes. this has occurred in my own town. it's easy to criticise when you aren't aware of or when not confronted personally with a problem. if you have a solution to this please post it, millions of Americans would be thankful. you continue to accuse me of dodging questions, which questions are you referring to ?

[Tormod]

Tormod, most Americans ( including myself) are not opposed to immigration, they are opposed to ILLEGAL immigration.

 

Of course they are opposed to it. It's illegal because it is classified as illegal. This is a social structure issue. I am also opposed to illegal immigration. I am however uncertain about the rightfulness in claiming that a person who enters a country illegally can by definition be a criminal. If I illegally enter you country with my 5 year old daughter, we are by this definition both criminals.

 

That is an important issue to me. Problems are not solved by labeling people.

 

Another important issue is why is immigration limited?

 

These things have been discussed, and hints at solutions offered, by pgrmdave, CraigD, and C1ay, among others, already. Nobody has the complete answer, because it is an extremely complex issue. But it is not solved by spreading one-sided information only.

 

you seem to think that we should have no say on who or how many enter our country and under what circumstances.

 

I have never said so and it is not my posistion. It does not mean I have to agree with the immigration laws in your country, questor.

 

is that also the position of your country? how many illegal

aliens come across your borders each year?

 

We look at this slightly differently. First of all the number of illegal aliens is uncertain, but I'd estimate it at maximum a few thousand. If you look at a map you will understand why.

 

We do however get an increasing amount of asylum seekers, refugees, and regular immigrants. About 50% of the immigrants in Norway are from Europe. About 10% of the population are immigrants.

 

Out of this, about 205,000 people come from Non-Western countries (ie, less than 3% of our population which is about 4,5 million).

 

For Europe as a whole, illegal immigration is a completely different issue. It is a huge problem with immigration from the old east bloc countries into Western Europe. It causes the exact same things that you are seeing in the US - pressure on the job market, poverty, theft, crime. But the division of Europe into countries is very different than the US/Mexico border issue. We have many countries, and also borders to several continents (Africa and Asia).

 

I am not qualified to say if the European politicians handle it better or worse than the US politicians, but Europe has about 3 times the population of the US (around 800 million) - this includes the old east bloc countries.

 

We are seeing different solutions in each country. In France, they have tended to get ghettos in the suburbs around Paris, for example. This has been criticised because it tends to put a lot of people in difficult situations together, and is one of the reasons for the violent uprisings we saw there recently.

 

You have said many times that I need to educate myself on this issue. I would put this back to you. Do you really think that the US is the only country with immigration problems? Or even illegal immigration? It is a world-wide problem, pal. But is it a problem because people pursue happiness, or because those who sit on the opportunity want to stop others from obtaining it?

 

As for myself, I have taken part in many discussions about immigration here in Norway and I know quite a bit about it, thank you. Racism is strong in this country, even on government levels, and it must be *hell* to be an immigrant here - even if you're legal. Unless you happen to be white and preferrably Scandinavian.

 

you are correct, most of these articles are negative. does this surprise you? we are dealing with a negative situation. why not produce some positive articles if you can find them?

 

Sure. Content about the positive sides of immigration can be easily found online.

 

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,148380,00.html

 

http://themetropolistimes.blogspirit.com/immigration/

 

Give it a try yourself. ;)

 

Can I find positive articles about *illegal* immigration? No. By definition that would be quite difficult.

 

no one has said ALL illegals are criminals at heart and want to live a life of crime, however they are ILLEGAL when they cross our borders without proper permission.

 

But what % of them engage in criminal activities (apart from being statutory criminals)? And what % of them engage in positive activities? What % would if the were given the chance?

 

i have not said they are the major cause of crime, but i know they have vicious gangs who attack and kill others with machetes. this has occurred in my own town.

 

This statement again shows what I am talking about. It is hearsay, Questor! "I know they have vicious gangs"...yes, and so do Americans. But not all Americans. And not all illegal immigrants. This is scare propaganda. Why do they kill others with machetes?

 

it's easy to criticise when you aren't aware of or when not confronted personally with a problem. if you have a solution to this please post it, millions of Americans would be thankful. you continue to accuse me of dodging questions, which questions are you referring to ?

 

Which questions? Why, I have only asked them a couple of times already. But maybe they need to be more concrete.

 

1) What are YOU doing to fight illegal immigration?

2) What can the average American do to make sure that there is no need for people to immigrate illegally?

3) Is it fair to call all illegal immigrants criminals (which has been implied in this thread) and why?

 

Questor, again, I have not said that YOU are a racist. I am saying you are posting links to racist propaganda (no, not the news items, but the American Resistance, for example). There is a distinction here and if you can't see it, then think about it.

[questor]

Tormod, i read your first link from Fox news. i see nothing about continuing to let illegals cross our borders at will as a positive situation. you and i must have different interpretations of the language. the article was more about, what do we do with the ones already here? this year we had more illegals than last year and next year will be more than this year. we cannot be

the salvation for all people of the world. we cannot supply jobs for everyone or financial aid to everyone, soon enough the jobs and aid would run out. it is one thing to wish the best for everyone in the world, it is another thing to be

the supplier for everything to everyone. we have limitations and they are now being overwhelmed. the Mexicans are good workers, but we cannot afford to let our country be overwhelmed by outsiders from anywhere. how many citizens can our country hold? already we are losing arable land and having water problems. read ''Collapse'' by Jared Diamond. globalization is quickly changing our economic picture, and we need fewer untrained workers than more of them. read ''The World is Flat'' by Thomas Friedman. it is up to the Mexican goverment to look after their own people and you may ask youself, why don't they? are they not capable of bringing their own people into the 21st century? at some point idealism has to meet reality and that is happening

now in the USA.

[Tormod]

Now you are willfully misreading me. I wrote that no, I cannot find positive articles about illegal immigration (implying that the ones I found were about positive aspects of immigration). Did you even READ my posts?

 

"Salvation for everybody in the world"? I thought we were talking about mexicans, first and foremost. I used Europe as an example to show you that the US is NOT in a unique position and frankly your wording makes me wonder how much you know about the world outside your own borders.

 

You keep derailing the issue and you keep making assumptions about me and my opinions that are unwarranted. I tried to turn this into a fruitful discussion about immigration and what the reasons for calling some immigration illegal is, but you seem unable to understand that it is even possible to discuss this.

 

This is a waste of time.