Camp of the Saints

[questor]

as you observe the world today, with an ocean of difference in religions, culture, diseases, education, violent people, and nationalists, are you willing to go through what is needed to even the global field? and risk your and your childrens lives?

[BluesMan]

<Snip>

2. what effect does doubling our population have on our current infrastructure; health care system, QUOTE]

 

It may cause layoffs, and discontinuation of necessary services.

Small rural hospitals cannot sustain the charity care they already offer in many cases. There have been $500,000+ losses at facilities, and the money has to come from somewhere. The Federal and State coffers will not cover these bills. They cannot be put out on the street, so you pay for it, or cuts are made.

[CraigD]

…

2. what effect does doubling our population have on our current infrastructure …

This question asserts that immigration from Mexico has the potential to double the population of the US. However, the current populations of the US and Mexico are estimated to be, respectively, 300 and 100 million. So, even if the entire population of Mexico were to enter the US, the population would increase by 33, not 100%.

 

The question also asserts that a substantially greater number of Mexicans than are currently in the US would immigrate, legally or illegally, to the US. However, demand for illegal, under-minimum wage and benefits labor by US business is not unlimited. Although obtaining employment and unemployment data for illegal businesses is problematical, there are reasonable indications that demand and supply are near parity.

 

As Questor points out, demand for less skilled labor is decreasing in the US. As it does, market theory predicts, immigration to meet the demand should, also. Conventional wisdom holds that Mexicans enter the US for jobs, not the culture or scenery (though fine culture and scenery it is!)

[C1ay]

As Questor points out, demand for less skilled labor is decreasing in the US. As it does, market theory predicts, immigration to meet the demand should, also. Conventional wisdom holds that Mexicans enter the US for jobs, not the culture or scenery (though fine culture and scenery it is!)

Globalization will increase this effect as well. As manufacturers move operations to countries like Mexico the demand here for those jobs will decrease even more. Ultimately manufacturers will strive to produce the best products that they can afford to produce in order to compete. This will drive them to hunt out the most capable, lowest cost labor that fits their needs. As education spreads more and more countries will become more and more capable to perform manufacturing tasks previously limited to more educated nations. This will continue to lower the demand for low wage workers in the U.S. and other foundations of the industrial age. IMO, it is not worth the expense to spend a lot of our budget chasing a problem that will naturally decrease over time. There are plenty of other priorities we should use these funds for.

[Racoon]

Heres part of the problem I have, and we should have.

 

Mexicans can cross over into the US, illegally, with very little repurcussion; maybe they get deported.

What happens to a US citizen when they cross into Mexico illegally??? :xx:

They get stuck into a horrible jail for an indefinite amount of time, and come out with a butthole the size of a 5 gallon bucket!! :)

 

It should be a two way street if the border is to be so porous!

Mexico shouldn't expect super-special treatment of its citizens over here, if they are not going to afford the same courtesy.. PERIOD!

 

I lived in Venezuela! I know how Latin culture works.

 

We need to press Mexico on its policy of treatment for US citizens, if we try like damned to accomodate them!!

 

They need us more than we need them. So why is US policy bending over backwards?? :)

 

Cuz the richest Americans profit the most, and they influence the Politics.

 

Sick of one way streets...:)

How you like them apples???

[C1ay]

We need to press Mexico on its policy of treatment for US citizens, if we try like damned to accomodate them!!

Actually we should press Mexico on its policy of treatment for US citizens no matter what our policy is regarding their citizens.

[CraigD]

What happens to a US citizen when they cross into Mexico illegally???

Does anyone know actually know a US citizen who has crossed into Mexico illegally?

 

I’ve a friend who spent several unpleasant years in a Mexican prison. He suffered no anal rapeings. His crime was smuggling guns –dozens of assault rifles and ammunition hidden under a light pickup’s sheet metal. A former friend of his, who, unknown to nearly everybody, was running guns to Mexican rebels, asked him to help drive a second vehicle there. Fortunately for my friend, he had a girlfriend and family willing to spend a lot of money and effort to get him legally released – his sentence was something like 50 years!

 

I’ve never heard of an American being jailed in Mexico for illegal immigration.

[Racoon]

Your friend was very lucky then...

[CraigD]

So why is US policy bending over backwards [to accommodate illegal Mexican immigrants?]?? :)

 

Cuz the richest Americans profit the most, and they influence the Politics.

I agree.

 

It’s a difficult issue, however. An business person who refuses to employ illegal aliens must typically pay more for labor, putting them at a competitive disadvantage against those who do not. Ethics can be costly.

[Racoon]

Ok but ,

 

Mexico needs to treat those US citizens breaking their Immigration Law, or other Misdemeanor Pot crime, or whatever frivololity, with same accord we treat their citizens.

Period!!

They can come here, break our laws, Mooch off our System that we pay taxes for, and the same is not even close to being reciprocated..:)

Its wrong. And I don't know why our Gov't doesnt try to improve that.???

 

They need us more than we need them. Why are we letting them get the best of us??

They come here. We can't go there.

Not the same justice system..

 

I'll tell you why.

Latin Governments simply don't Value Life like we do. :xx:

[CraigD]

Your friend was very lucky then...

I don’t believe this is true.

 

The most liberal estimates of the incidence of anal rape in US prisons (eg: http://www.hrw.org/reports/2001/prison/report7.html) suggest that 11% of male prisoners are anally raped. Other reports suggest the incidence is actually 3%.

 

Conclusive statistics are difficult to obtain. However, I know 29 people who have been incarcerated for more than 1 year in a state of federal penitentiary in the US. Of them, only 2 have told me they was anally raped. As one of them is a homosexual, a rapist, and a pathological liar, I’m not confident his story is truthful. So my anecdotal statistics support an incidence around 3%, although my numbers could be underreported, as some of these people may have been raped, but be unwilling to tell me or others, so the 11% incidence is not contradicted.

 

I only know one person who has been incarcerated in a Mexican prison. He reports no rape. This is too small a sample to support any statistic.

 

Regardless of the actual incidence, rape in any setting is unacceptable. The Prison Rape Elimination Act of 2003 is, I think, good legislation by the US congress to address the problem.

 

The perception that incarceration in US – or Mexican – prison is a nearly certain guarantee of being raped, appears to be a folk myth, bolstered by depictions in the popular media. Given the terribly high incidence of incarceration and in these countries, and the terribly high incidence of HIV infection in the prison population, we’re very lucky that the incidence of rape is much lower than the popular perception of it.

[Racoon]

How the hell do you know what goes on in Mexican Prisons Craig? :)

I hear that it aint all that great. :xx:

 

More Rapes occur in US prisons than that of Women who are raped on the outside. :) Who knows about Mexican Prison? My guess is probably not you

 

Like I said, there are more Bad stories than Good!

More extortion than extraditing... :)

And Mexico oughta' afford our citizens with the same Damn respect we show their Illegals here!! (which is some and opportunity to work)

 

Is that too much to ask?

Do we have to take it "every which way but loose"???

 

And like I said, From Real life Experience,

Latin Governments DO NOT hold the same Value of Life that we do.

Which is why the discrepency..

 

And that should change. Because we give 'Them' the benefit of the doubt.

And likewise, US citizens should get it too.

[Racoon]

See earlier post..

 

I definitely respect your brain CraigD. :xx:

You're a Smart son of a Gun! :)

 

But you should stick to Math, and I'll stick to Social Science and Philosophy.

Trust me.

You might have 20 friends who went to mexico, for a visit, at Mazatlan, or wherever, But They DID NOT learn how these people think like I did!

 

Its not Bad how they think, Only Different.

Until YOU are fluent in Spanish and begin to understand their Culture from their eyes then I cannot buy into your arguement.

Yes, Not all experiences are Gonna' be Bad, but trust me..

Unless you Pay them off, they will be..

It operates on a different level. :)

 

If you get pulled over DUI here, say in Maryland or Ohio, are you gonna' try and bribe the Officer?? Hell no! you go to jail, pay your fines and all that..

But you go home in a Day or Three...

Thats not how it works there...

 

You pay the officer a few Greens, and they'll probably look the other way.

Especially if you can Speak Spanish and Not seem like another egotistical GRINGO..

If you act a fool, you don't see court the next day. Maybe not even the next few months!!

 

What I am trying to say IS:

 

Mexico should show US Citizens more leniency for petty crimes and Illegal occupation during their stay.

Just as We do for Mexicans here.

 

Is that too much to ask?

Considering what we do for that country economically these days?

 

Two Way Street. :)

[Tormod]

Tormod, yes, we already have plenty of criminals in the US. what does this have to do with illegal aliens? is the logic here that we should let more potential criminals in because we already have some? or is it that if we let illegal aliens in, it may solve our existing crime problem? the reasoning here totally escapes me.

 

The reasoining was very simple: TO show that New Mexico is not struggling with illegal aliens only. US citizens also deal in drugs and arms. It was a contrasting story.

 

As for your comment that the US is the only country with immigration laws...did you read a single one of my posts???

 

I don't know *one* country in this world that does not have immigration laws, and they tend to be very strict.

[CraigD]

How the hell do you know what goes on in Mexican Prisons Craig? :xx:

I hear that it aint all that great. :)

People who have been inmates in Mexican prisons know best what goes on in them. The next most knowledgeable people would, I think, be guards, followed by inspectors.

Who knows about Mexican Prison? My guess is probably not you

I suspect I know more about them than most Americans, by virtue of knowing, and having discussed them at length, with a single person who spent nearly 4 years in one, and his girlfriend, who visited him about a dozen times there. Both are honest, level-headed, open people who I am confident are not exaggerating or distorting their experiences. This is second-hand information, but much more immediate, and, I think, accurate, than impressions gathered from “stories”, movies, television shows, and conversations with people who have not been in, nor had lengthy conversations with people who have been in Mexican prisons.

 

My knowledge of Mexican prisons is limited to the report of a single American incarcerated in a single prison, so may be anomalous. Perhaps many or most Mexican prisons have much worse conditions than this one. Without additional information, I can’t make any claims.

 

To return the question, Racoon, how much experience have you had with Mexican prisons, or prisons in any nation? I understand this can be a sensitive question, so please don’t feel compelled to answer, but how you have heard they ain’t so great is important to likelihood that your conclusion is correct.

 

I am deeply skeptical of many people’s statements about prison conditions, because I have spent a cumulative period of several months in a Virginia state prison (visiting, and for a year, teaching, not as an inmate), and know a lot of people who have been inmates, and my and their experiences don’t agree with the popular perception. This knowledge has been of value to me, because while in my entire life I’ve spent less than 36 hours in any form of detention, I have endured several tens of hours of threats of incarceration and intimations that such would involve a lot of anal rape, directly from the mouths of FBI agents, who, it’s valuable to know, are under no compunction to tell the truth about anything during such interrogations.

 

Spreading inaccurate, unsupported information about prison conditions perpetuates the stereotype of all prisons as place where rape is a near certainty, a stereotype that is, by any report or measure, certainly false. This stereotype provides a potent weapon to people who seek, on a daily basis, to undermine the liberties of millions of US citizens. Serving to perpetuate this misinformation does a disservice to the public, and to truth.

 

The public and the truth, are served by accurate and reliable information about prisons. Although I’m underwhelmed by the quality and public awareness of such information mandated by PREA, I think PREA is a clear step in the right direction.

[ughaibu]

Racoon: I think you're asking the wrong questions. If foreign prisoners are treated as are local prisoners in both Mexico and USA, I see no reason for complaint. Expecting to be penalised as if in a different country is bizarre behaviour, you wouldn't think it a valid defense for a lawbreaker to claim "but it's not illegal in Mauritania", would you?

[ughaibu]

Racoon: What do you mean by "international credentials"?