I read the news today Oboy

[TheBigDog]

Isn't it possible that this is already the case? I have no conclusive evidence either way...

 

 

 

Again, I have no conclusive evidence either way, but come to think of it, I no evidence that we do anything differently either...

 

 

I'm not trying to make a big stink and make some absolute comment about us being ants or ants being free thinkers... just that the examples one can provide either way do not satisfactorily resolve the issue.

I am a little suprised that you would consider the comparison of Man's experience of the world to be arguably the same as an ant's. What is your standard of proof for indicating a difference?

[InfiniteNow]

I am a little suprised that you would consider the comparison of Man's experience of the world to be arguably the same as an ant's. What is your standard of proof for indicating a difference?

Why?

 

I think I've made a recurring theme in my posts in that I see life as more connected. That the similarities far outweigh any differences.

 

I look at a tree and recognize that we are both living organisms, and on some level share the same basic underpinnings. I look at animals in the woods and recognize that they are passing through the world just as I am... ants are just one more life form. Are there differences? Certainly... but there are also parellels and similarities.

 

Standard's of proof are exquisitely elusive in this context. We cannot even adequately define our own experience of the world nor consciousness. The concept of self is gray and indistinct. Considering this, I prefer to remain open to various possibilities and focus my perspective on any existing sameness instead...

 

 

Like I mentioned though, I wasn't making any huge point or trying to raise a stink. That's just how I feel on the topic. Of course it'd be nice if people agreed, but I have no attachment to the concept, and it sure won't hurt my feelings if somebody feels otherwise.

 

 

Cheers my friend. :)

[TheBigDog]

Cheers my friend. :)

Right back at ya! :) :)

[inside the sun]

honestly, art and music aren't meant to be taken literally.

lennon wrote this song at a stage in his life where he was tired of life.

This song goes after all those things in which we find problems in, and effect us over the years. People killing others over materials, possession, people becoming absorbed in religion, and killing people over relgion beliefs. This isn't a song about communism, communism is facist, and is just a nicer version of nazism, of having complete control over people becuase you have given up on them and society to be able to function freely. You think lennon honestly wrote a song about giving up on society and people to think and act for themselves? I'm sure at times one may feel like people are "f*cking stupid, can't do anything right, and they are destroying themselves, no respect, no love, they are parasites" the list goes on and on, but its a very few that take these thoughts, and put them to an extreme and create something such as communism. The thing about art is that it can be interpreted in many different ways..so how is anyone that is an artist supressing your freedom, and taking it away by promoting freedom of speach, freedom of thought, and singing about it. Words have multiple meanings/definitions, and when formed in a sentence the definitions are ENDLESS. I never looked at the song under your light before, and i disagree with it, it is my own opinion, but that is not what the song means to me, and i hope other people that enjoy the song don't enjoy it for the meaning in which you say it has, i highly doubt they do.

The song is called imagine, it required imagination, becuase a world like this would never exist, and that is the WHOLE point of the song.

[inside the sun]

I am a little suprised that you would consider the comparison of Man's experience of the world to be arguably the same as an ant's. What is your standard of proof for indicating a difference?

First of all, about the whole mind thing..the mind is something that is invisible, such as the soul, invisible in the fact that we cannot use science to locate or prove of it's existance, so an ant could have a mind how would you know? And second, who is anyone to say that anythings existance is more or less important and why can't we compare our existance to that of anything, i know a few people that choose to live like an ant, it is a lot easier that way, and that is their choice, they have that freedom. For someone who disagrees with communism you seam to kind of have the same thinking patterns of someone who is for it, you just seam to disagree with the way they handle their beliefs.

 

Second, we are not only MAN, we are mammal, an animal among other animals, just becuase we wear clothes, and they were fur, doesn't make us any better, if it does then im going to go shave a bear and put him in a robe, and give him a crown and dub him the king of england.

Animals represent true freedom...until we cage them.

[Turtle]

 

Second, we are not only MAN, we are mammal, an animal among other animals, just becuase we wear clothes, and they were fur, doesn't make us any better, if it does then im going to go shave a bear and put him in a robe, and give him a crown and dub him the king of england.

Animals represent true freedom...until we cage them.

 

___To paraphrase my mother, I am not better than any other human or animal, but neither are they better than me.

___Good luck shaving that bear.:)

[TheBigDog]

Oh... come on... What about "Rubber Soul?" "Revolver?"

For me those have great tracks. But it is the composition of "Abbey Road" that puts it over the top for me.

 

Side A is John Lennon's vision of the Beatles. Individual tracks of music. Side B is Paul's vision, with the triples that are banded into each other. Each of the sides was produced to please one of them. Then look at the sequence of songs. "Come Together" brings the listener into the mood of the album, calling them to enjoy. "Something" a love song talking needing love, the love of a specific and special woman. "Maxwell's Silver Hammer" we love you, now we kill you. A song about a murderer. "Oh! Darling" Please believe me, I'd never do you no harm. "Octopus's Garden" with the light mood, the humor, the playfulness. "I want You (She's so heavy)" that takes the light under sea mood and transforms it into the raging storm building and and building to a hurricane crecendo... To... "Here Comes the Sun" with the storm over, and the new day and the new side beginning. What an awsome sequence of songs!

 

Bill

[TheBigDog]

You think lennon honestly wrote a song about giving up on society and people to think and act for themselves? I'm sure at times one may feel like people are "f*cking stupid, can't do anything right, and they are destroying themselves, no respect, no love, they are parasites" the list goes on and on, but its a very few that take these thoughts, and put them to an extreme and create something such as communism.

Yes. I have a great deal of respect for John's capacity to deliver a message in his art. And the very distinct message from "Imagine" is communism. Now he was probably not thinking about totalitarian communist state, but more about the free love hippie commune **** that was happening in the late 60's. Trouble is that communism only breeds one end no matter how well intended.

 

He was a very talented and bright person, but he had a very specific agenda. He was anti-capitalism. The enemy of capitalism of the day was communism lead by the Soviet block. He protested the war in Vietnam. Petitioned and and protested the US role in the war. Where was his outrage at the North Vietnamese when they slaughtered 2.5 million people after the US pullled out? We gave peace a chance. At what cost?

 

The hipocracy that I mentioned was from his reasoning for breaking up the Beatles. When Paul released his solo album the day before "Let It Be" was released, what was John, the man who doesn't believe in profits or possessions angry about? Not that Paul had released an album, but that the timing of it would cut into the sales of HIS album. That Paul should have done it earlier or later to allow "Let It Be" to be alone on the market for a period of time to make more money. I guess he was only human.

 

It is only art in the end. So take from it whatever message you want. I am not saying by any means that the song should be banned. I am saying that it should be understood.

 

Bill

[TheBigDog]

... i know a few people that choose to live like an ant, it is a lot easier that way, and that is their choice, they have that freedom. For someone who disagrees with communism you seam to kind of have the same thinking patterns of someone who is for it, you just seam to disagree with the way they handle their beliefs.

It must have felt very good to type that. Read again what I have written. Under communism you are a cog without choice. Under capitalism you have the choice to be a cog. There is a very distinct difference.

 

Ants live in a society where there the role they play for their entire life is predetermined. They are a worker, or a queen, or a warrior, or a nurse. And that is all the ever do. None are presented with choices. They are born and they work and they die. That is it. Humans are distinclty different from that in that we choose not only our own destiny, but have control and choice over the environment around us. No animal gives a damn about saving anything except themselves and their offspring. Some work cooperativly in groups, but always at the expense of any other animal. They hunt and are hunted. They fight to mate. They die fighting. They protect food and water from others, and those others starve and die. And the ones with the food and water grow stronger. Animals perform based upon instinct, without the capacity for higher thought. They can think, but in very simple terms. And we like to humanize them at our own peril. In the end they are animals, and they just don't care about people, unless they think those people are part of the pack.

 

Man is the only one who can tell the difference. Who can give a damn. Who can not just hunt, but protect and make a species thrive. And in our unique capaicity for mercy and love, we can take action to protect animals from inevitable extinction that would otherwise disappear. We have animal ancestry, but our intelligence and our freedom of choice separate man from the animals.

 

Bill

[inside the sun]

nts live in a society where there the role they play for their entire life is predetermined. They are a worker, or a queen, or a warrior, or a nurse. And that is all the ever do.

i like that a lot

 

They are born and they work and they die. That is it. Humans are distinclty different from that in that we choose not only our own destiny, but have control and choice over the environment around us. No animal gives a damn about saving anything except themselves and their offspring. Some work cooperativly in groups, but always at the expense of any other animal. They hunt and are hunted. They fight to mate. They die fighting. They protect food and water from others, and those others starve and die. And the ones with the food and water grow stronger. Animals perform based upon instinct, without the capacity for higher thought. They can think, but in very simple terms. And we like to humanize them at our own peril. In the end they are animals, and they just don't care about people, unless they think those people are part of the pack.

 

born, work and die...we do that too.

Do we control our destiny? I hope so. Some people disagree though, some people believe they will never be more than a coal miner because their father did it, so they never live the mines.

Don't give a damn about saving anything except themselves...hmm, there are a great deal of people like this, it is the ones that AREN'T like this, that STAND OUT.

Some of us work together, some of us are very independent. We hunt, maybe not the way they do, becuase we are more civilized, but oh boy do we hunt, we fight for job possesions, to get into colleges, hunting for mates, of course we fight over girls! We just do things in more civilized manners, we use our minds and our brain power, the silent fight, the mental battle. Manipulation is a deadly weapon.

Protect food adn water from others, ****, we got a lot of stuff over here in the US that people in mexico dream of having and we do a good job of protecting that boarder, so they have trouble getting in, and some starve and die trying...

They don't care about people...how much do we care about them?

Care and respect go both ways, not with everything though, great line from the movie naturla born killers, or story, about a snake. A women brings a snake in that was dying in the cold, she nurses it back to health and takes care of it, the snake one die bites her, and in her dying breath she asks the snake why, and he goes "look *****, you knew i was a snake"

[CraigD]

From the tone this thread is assuming, I think another John Lennon lyric, this one a bit less utopian, is apropos:

Keep you doped with religion and sex and TV

And you think you're so clever and class less and free

But you're still ****ing peasants as far as I can see

A working class hero is something to be …

[InfiniteNow]

We have animal ancestry, but our intelligence and our freedom of choice separate man from the animals.

Ouch... statements like this are like acid being poured into my eyes (and not the D-lysergic acid diethylamide type...)

 

Many many many animals in the world are more than instincts, and, if they are not, who can say that we are any different? I just find such distaste in statements like "humans are different than animals." Seems like a silly and unecessary distinction.

 

But... I've pointed this out already a few posts back.

 

Excluding the points re: animals, you raised good ideas here. Thanks for further clarifying your intent on the underlying philosphy of the writer/singer. :)

[TheBigDog]

Ouch... statements like this are like acid being poured into my eyes (and not the D-lysergic acid diethylamide type...)

That is why we have this conversation at the water cooler. So you can rince out your eyes in a hurry!

 

At the risk of beating a dead horse, let me try and clarify the distinction I am claiming. Man is an animal. All animals seek food when they are hungry, seek water when they are thirsty, seek warmth when they are cold, seek mates for reproduction, run or fight when they are scared, sleep when they are tired. And when none of these essential drives are in play, they may relax an play. But only man has the capacity to ignore these essential drives of his own free will. Only man takes his idle time and discovers, invents, creates, and does things that are otherwise unessential to the drives of his animal being. That is what separates man from the rest of the animals.

 

Better? Less burn?

 

Bill

[InfiniteNow]

You had me up until...

 

But only man has the capacity to ignore these essential drives of his own free will. Only man takes his idle time and discovers, invents, creates, and does things that are otherwise unessential to the drives of his animal being. That is what separates man from the rest of the animals.

 

... then we again came to a point of disagreement.

[InfiniteNow]

Just to clarify... this is one of those points that I have a really hard time supporting, but feel extraordinarily strongly is correct...

[TheBigDog]

Just to clarify... this is one of those points that I have a really hard time supporting, but feel extraordinarily strongly is correct...

An appropriate reaction exclusive to you, as a man. :)

 

InfiniteNow + BigDog + :eek: + :D = :) - the formula for more important topics.

 

Bill

[InfiniteNow]

Other formulae might be:

 

 

InfiniteNow chilling with TheBigDog =

:rant:

;)

 

(but what about...)

 

:)

:)

;)

:D

:doh:

 

 

(you're right, let's have another cocktail)

 

:lol:

:)

 

(maybe I should have stopped at 7... oooh, look at her!)

 

:)

:D

 

(shhh...don't tell the wife)

:zip:

______________

:eek: + :wink: + :eek: