What are the evolved reasons for our motivations and impulses?

[InfiniteNow]

In another thread started regarding gambling...

http://hypography.com/forums/social-sciences/5487-gambling-getting-problem.html

 

... the topic of motivation arose, and discussion of possible evolved mechanisms behind motivation and our impusles began. This thread is intended to further explore this realm. The key points are as follows:

 

Gambling really is a broader and more abstract concept. We gamble when we ask a beautiful woman out to dinner. We gamble when we get into the car and merge onto the highway... and on and on and on...

 

What I'm curious about is how the adrenaline response evolved as a result of gambling? What is it about gambling that was important to our survival which makes it so widespread in all of it's various contexts today?

 

Why do we hunt for valuable resources? Why is there a need for resources? I'm not talking motivation like a personal trainer yelling at you, but deeply rooted unconscious tendencies which have been continually reinforced because those who did it survived and passed on their genes to their offspring, and those who didn't died out.

 

We hunt for valued resources based on our internal drive to survive. The lion does not establish the territory to attract the lioness, he establishes the territory with the best resources for self. The lioness joins that male because the resources are attractive to her also. She will have a better chance of survival. A pride with wealthy resources is then able to ensure the survival of the offspring. The evolutionary drive is about self-survival. The benefit to offspring comes from that drive.

 

I contend that even the desire to survive is based on a deeper desire to proginate and pass on our genes to our offspring. Others do not think this is the case.

 

 

What do you think?

[Racoon]

I contend that even the desire to survive is based on a deeper desire to proginate and pass on our genes to our offspring. Others do not think this is the case.

 

 

What do you think?

 

I think you're probably right InfiniteNow. As usual :)

We live to reproduce, and then die.

We spend a lot of effort in attracting a suitable mate.

Then we expend most of our energies to providing for the offspring.

 

I think it is in the genes.

It has only been since the Industrial revolution that we can choose to stray from the natural course of things.

 

People usually only lived to be 30 or so..

I KNOW its in the Womans genes!

They all want to have kids, with that Biological Clock of theirs.

[Cedars]

I contend that even the desire to survive is based on a deeper desire to proginate and pass on our genes to our offspring. Others do not think this is the case.

 

 

What do you think?

 

This did originate in what evolutionary impulse motivates people to gamble. I posted that it is the hunt for resources that is the evolutionary motivation in gambling.

 

Children will struggle to survive without any hormonal or physical need to reproduce. Women who have passed the child bearing stage of life will continue to struggle to survive by gathering resources to ensure that future. That is what is the deepest desire. Self survival.

 

Our motivation to continue to survive is simply that. It is not because of a deeper desire to pass on our genes. That happens as a secondary benefit, not a deeper desire.

 

Another point about passing on genes is what happens when an environment becomes over crowded. We see animals killing young and each other. Why? It is resources.

 

As I posted before in the other thread:

 

This is why when another male lion does take over a valued territory via war with the existing male, the lioness (for the most part) do not leave with the departing male. They stay for resources. It is not the attraction to the male that makes them stay; it is their comfort with the available resources. That is the primary psychology behind these motives. Sex is a secondary benefit for the dominate male and the ensuing pride attracted to his territory based on this primordial push to survive. I would imagine this is why we cannot encourage pandas (and many other species) to reproduce easily in captivity. It is the resources that are lacking, not the evolutionary sex drive.

 

Without the resources existing the drive to reproduce diminishes. The drive for self-survival does not.

[HydrogenBond]

The desire impulse is the foundation of many motivations. It is based on genetically induced personality software that appears at birth. As we grow, we program this basic impulse and its data organizing structure within the brain with a wide variety of extrapolations. Advertisers use this fact to associated a beautiful women with a new product. The desire is induced in men and a new association added to the desire mixture. The hope is that one will spread their seed (money) making love to their product until it becomes a love obsession.

 

The desire tone is not the only personality software. There is also one based on fear. If one spooks people to believe the sky is falling or the ozone layers is broken, one can extrapolate their fear tone to manipulate a fight/flight response. This will get people up at arms ready to destroy the evil coal plant. There is also hunger. This starts around food, but there is also the hunger for knowledge. Some people will eat up someone's latest novels like they a bag of potato chips. There are other software also.

 

Natural behavior is centerred around the base software. The human extrapolations can extend the software or add viruses to it. For example, one can consciously eat very healthful foods, or even starve themselves. The latter is an example of the software crossing wires with hunger and fear occurring at the same time. Desire and fear cross when one pursue money. Money allows one to satisfy desire, creates security (less fear) and give one power (fight).

[InfiniteNow]

That is what is the deepest desire. Self survival.

Forest for the trees, Cedar. Why is self-survival so imperative?

 

 

Our motivation to continue to survive is simply that. It is not because of a deeper desire to pass on our genes. That happens as a secondary benefit, not a deeper desire.

Can you support this in any way, or is it just your personal opinion? If not opinion, show me what information allows you to make a point with such certainty.

 

 

Another point about passing on genes is what happens when an environment becomes over crowded. We see animals killing young and each other. Why? It is resources.

This has no bearing on the question posed here. The evolved mechanism comes well before the situational resources and their availability come into question.

 

 

 

This is why when another male lion does take over a valued territory via war with the existing male, the lioness (for the most part) do not leave with the departing male. They stay for resources. It is not the attraction to the male that makes them stay; it is their comfort with the available resources. That is the primary psychology behind these motives.

And is not our desire for resources based in our need to pass on our genes to the next generation? Lions, humans, and everything else? This question is rhetorical. The answer is yes. The females need resources to ensure their genes are passed on. Their offspring will have a better chance of doing the same if they are fathered by the strongest and most capable male. They stay with the more powerful lion... to reproduce.

 

Sea lions are a better example of this than "land" lions...

 

 

Sex is a secondary benefit for the dominate male and the ensuing pride attracted to his territory based on this primordial push to survive. I would imagine this is why we cannot encourage pandas (and many other species) to reproduce easily in captivity. It is the resources that are lacking, not the evolutionary sex drive.

Maybe the pandas are just depressed to be caged... :) I know I'd be... then again, there is prison sex. :) Okay, now, back on point...

 

Let me ask the same question... why is our need for resources so great? Why do we wish for ourselves to survive? Is not our own survival a prospect which itself is carried forth into future generations?

 

Survival, taken on a broader and deeper level entails my genes going forward through the generations yet to come... not just me living today.

 

 

You make some valid points here, Cedars, no doubt. Resources are a vital part of survival. A vital part in mate acquisition. A vital part in lots of things... but that is another issue.

 

 

We do it all for sex... or, more accurately, our motivations have evolved to ensure that our genes are carried forward. That the vehicles of our genes (the mothers and the children) are safe and healthy. I do not have a doctorate in Evolutionary Psychology, and am not used to defending or articulating these points well, however, I'll try.

 

 

Cheers. :)

[Cedars]

Forest for the trees, Cedar. Why is self-survival so imperative?

Can you support this in any way, or is it just your personal opinion? If not opinion, show me what information allows you to make a point with such certainty.

 

 

Self survival is simply about the drive to survive. It exists in all creatures and faults within this directive result in multiple disfunctions, including sexual drive. Most can have the loss of sexual drive and not lose the self survival drive.

 

 

You have not shown any support, yet you have not invalidated my points.

 

Sexual selection often favours traits that reduce the survival of individuals: John Maynard Smith The Evolution of Sex 1978.

 

This has no bearing on the question posed here. The evolved mechanism comes well before the situational resources and their availability come into question.

 

It does have a bearing. When resources decline this need to pass on genes goes by the wayside and self survival dominates. The drive to reproduce is secondary to the hunt for resources for self.

 

And is not our desire for resources based in our need to pass on our genes to the next generation? Lions, humans, and everything else? This question is rhetorical. The answer is yes. The females need resources to ensure their genes are passed on. Their offspring will have a better chance of doing the same if they are fathered by the strongest and most capable male. They stay with the more powerful lion... to reproduce.

 

Ah the romantic idealism of the lion... She stays with the tough guy. Bah.

 

She does all the hunting (with her sister lions) He pushes his way into the choice pickings of the kill, gorges himself and leaves the leftovers for his gene carrying life line (the mother of his evolutionary driven mandate). She stays because she can feed herself. She stays because resources are good.

 

Sea lions are a better example of this than "land" lions...

 

How so?

 

Let me ask the same question... why is our need for resources so great? Why do we wish for ourselves to survive? Is not our own survival a prospect which itself is carried forth into future generations?

 

Survival, taken on a broader and deeper level entails my genes going forward through the generations yet to come... not just me living today.

 

Arrgh! Is not a DEEPER Level! Its a lesser level than selfish individuality! the me Me ME!! that all life exibits.

 

 

You make some valid points here, Cedars, no doubt. Resources are a vital part of survival. A vital part in mate acquisition. A vital part in lots of things... but that is another issue.

 

We do all of it for self. Without resources there is no self. Without resources to offer mates there is no reproduction. It is the primary drive that inspires people to gamble, take risks, to reproduce, to fight over a piece of grassland or hillside, and all the basics of human drive.

 

 

We do it all for sex... or, more accurately, our motivations have evolved to ensure that our genes are carried forward. That the vehicles of our genes (the mothers and the children) are safe and healthy. I do not have a doctorate in Evolutionary Psychology, and am not used to defending or articulating these points well, however, I'll try.

 

Cheers. :)

 

I do not have the degree either. It will make it easier for us to understand each other :)

[InfiniteNow]

Self survival is simply about the drive to survive. It exists in all creatures and faults within this directive result in multiple disfunctions, including sexual drive. Most can have the loss of sexual drive and not lose the self survival drive.

But the sexual drive existed before it went away. Why?

 

 

 

Sexual selection often favours traits that reduce the survival of individuals: John Maynard Smith The Evolution of Sex 1978.

Okay... that's good knowledge to have. However, this does not answer the question of how one can state that a motivation to survive is not due to some deeper desire to pass on our genes. It just says that sexual selection often favors traits that reduce individual survival...

 

 

Another point about passing on genes is what happens when an environment becomes over crowded. We see animals killing young and each other. Why? It is resources.

This has no bearing on the question posed here. The evolved mechanism comes well before the situational resources and their availability come into question.

It does have a bearing. When resources decline this need to pass on genes goes by the wayside and self survival dominates. The drive to reproduce is secondary to the hunt for resources for self.

Yes, but you missed my point. The drives and motivations are with us when we are born. It's the hunt for resources which is secondary since this is not at all a factor until later in life...

 

 

As for your "how so?" question...

Sea lions are huge fighters for territory and females, even more so than land lions. Anyway, I'm now done with the lion analogy...

 

 

Arrgh! Is not a DEEPER Level! Its a lesser level than selfish individuality! the me Me ME!! that all life exibits.

Well... that's not the most scientific of arguments, but I clearly understand how you feel on the issue anyway. We disagree here... no biggie.

 

 

We do all of it for self. Without resources there is no self. Without resources to offer mates there is no reproduction. It is the primary drive that inspires people to gamble, take risks, to reproduce, to fight over a piece of grassland or hillside, and all the basics of human drive.

The question again is what is the purpose of self survival? Self survival entails our genes surviving, not just our present self. I could tell you this until I'm blue in the face.

 

 

I do not have the degree either. It will make it easier for us to understand each other :)

While I have "A" degree, it's not in this topic. I've done a bunch of reading on the topic.

 

We may have different perspectives, but we understand.

 

 

Enjoy. :)

[pmaust]

It may be possible that there is another level to which this discussion could evolve. Human intelligence may play a key role in how base motivations are controlled and acted upon. Quite some time ago, while looking for other information I ran across this =====> http://eqi.org/

 

See definition of emotional intelligence.

 

Can evolved "reasons" be differentiated from emotional reasons, psychology and intellect?

[InfiniteNow]

http://eqi.org/

 

See definition of emotional intelligence.

 

Can evolved "reasons" be differentiated from emotional reasons, psychology and intellect?

Thanks for the link pmaust, and for jumping in. Appreciate your insight. Emotional intelligence is a very interesting sector of study, and has some wonderful points to it. The information I am attempting to piece out of this is why might such intelligences... motivations... whatever have evolved the way they did?

 

I still contend that survival is a larger issue than just my current container (body). That motivation stems from the desire to pass on our genes successfully to our offspring and to maximize the offspring's chances to do the same...

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolutionary_psychology

 

 

While I may be biased since I believe my point to be correct, I do not feel evidence has yet been offered to disprove it.

[pmaust]

The information I am attempting to piece out of this is why might such intelligences... motivations... whatever have evolved the way they did?

 

I understand. Great discussion. I'm on my way out of town but look forward to seeing how this thread progresses when I get back. I'm sure you have put way more thought into and know far more about this subject than I do. It is a facinating subject. :)

[Cedars]

But the sexual drive existed before it went away. Why?

 

The sexual drive as it existed was disrupted when self survival is compromised. Why? Because it is a secondary evolutionary mandate. Why can the loss of sexual drive not disrupt the evolutionary self survival impulse? *some highly testosteroned human males aside* :eek:

 

Originally Posted by Cedars

Sexual selection often favors traits that reduce the survival of individuals: John Maynard Smith The Evolution of Sex 1978.

 

Okay... that's good knowledge to have. However, this does not answer the question of how one can state that a motivation to survive is not due to some deeper desire to pass on our genes. It just says that sexual selection often favors traits that reduce individual survival...

 

I feel I have answered this several times with examples that you have not disputed. An evolutionary process that reduces individual survival (of the young) does not seem to be driven to produce self survival through passing on of selves genes. The drive to reproduce exists, but it is secondary to the immediate gratification of self survival, and the hunt for resources is a greater drive than the drive to reproduce. It is the ability to excel at the hunt for resources that allows the following drive to reproduce to succeed.

 

Yes, but you missed my point. The drives and motivations are with us when we are born. It's the hunt for resources which is secondary since this is not at all a factor until later in life...

 

You must not have spent much time with mammals being born and growing up as litters. How can you imply that a litter of kittens/puppies/twin calves/fawns/lambs/etc. struggling to get the best teat is anything other than the primal drive to gather resources for self? How do you explain the runts that do exist in these conditions as the result of a secondary or lesser motivation? Are you saying internally the runt is saying "I may be hungry now but I will get laid when I grow up"? :lol:

 

Did you not compete with your siblings for your favorite piece of the chicken? The biggest piece of desert? The best seat in the house to view TV from? How is this anything more than the hunt for resources for self? How are these basic (and across the board) examples of evolutionary sexual drive? They fall under the hunt to gather resources for self. The primary drive. The all inclusive drive.

 

As for your "how so?" question...

Sea lions are huge fighters for territory and females, even more so than land lions. Anyway, I'm now done with the lion analogy...

 

I did notice you had nothing to contradict my lion examples. As far as sea lions fighting for territory/females, this encompasses a whole what? 2-4 weeks of a 52 week year? This endeavor that is induced by a specific chemical action within the females. Where are these males once the estrous cycles end? They are running around gathering resources for self. Usually hanging around with other males who exhibit nothing evolutionary to drive their concern for their offspring (and as you imply self) survival. They have gathered their resources and once that particular resource is exhausted, they abandon this endeavor. They abandon it to gather food. Hunt fish. Eat shellfish. Their entire life cycle is spent on gathering resources for self. Regardless of the impact on their progeny (which seems contrary to an evolutionary mandate of self survival through the survival of self via offspring).

 

Well... that's not the most scientific of arguments, but I clearly understand how you feel on the issue anyway. We disagree here... no biggie.

 

You have yet to present an argument other than "I read something, I cant explain it, but I say so anyways".

 

The question again is what is the purpose of self survival? Self survival entails our genes surviving, not just our present self. I could tell you this until I'm blue in the face.

 

So far that is all you have done. You have presented no evidence of this being the motivation behind gambling (which is the origins of this discussion). You wondered if it was an evolutionary sexual matter, I disagreed, posted my points on how it is the hunt/gathering resources for self that drives the gambler and other aspects of our motivation/adrenaline rush.

 

:)

[Boerseun]

...with that Biological Clock of theirs.

Had a girl with a biological clock once. The bastard was made in China.

[InfiniteNow]

Cedars...

 

I haven't contested your statements in terms of what happens nor our desire to find resources because I agree with them. You are correct that the need to eat is more fundamental at any given moment than the need to ****. We must survive first so we can procreate. The lioness goes with the stronger lion of the pride so she can have access to resources. So her offspring can have resources. So the genes of her offspring will be from the strongest of all lions.

 

The idea I am attempting to get at is that the need to reproduce motivates the need to survive, eat, etc. It sounds like you are saying that the need reproduce is secondary and the need to get resources primary.

 

We really are saying much of the same thing, I just place a greater importance on survival over millenia and you are placing greater importance on survival over a lifetime. We don't disagree on much here, which is why I haven't tried very hard to refute your statements. What we do seem to disagree on is the underlying motivation.

 

Thanks for you thoughtful comments and posts. I'll see about getting my head out of cosmology and politics for a while and see if I can present a better argument here.

 

 

Cheers. :shrug:

[Cedars]

The idea I am attempting to get at is that the need to reproduce motivates the need to survive, eat, etc. It sounds like you are saying that the need reproduce is secondary and the need to get resources primary.

 

We really are saying much of the same thing, I just place a greater importance on survival over millenia and you are placing greater importance on survival over a lifetime. We don't disagree on much here, which is why I haven't tried very hard to refute your statements. What we do seem to disagree on is the underlying motivation.

 

 

I understand your point is survival over the millenia via reproduction as the stronger evolutionary drive and the primary factor in motivation for the things we do, the adrenaline rush various actions give, etc.

 

And yes, I think the drive to reproduce is secondary to the drive for self survival. Natural selection allows the individuals survial based on individual resource gathering ability. Those who are born with the genetics to survive in their particular resource condition are then the ones who are able to reproduce.

 

The survival over the millenia is driven by the individuals skills at gathering the resources (in changing conditions) which allow them to reproduce when they reach the physical maturity needed to allow them to attempt to spread their genetic make-up.

 

The success of this attempt again is based on whether the resulting individual(s) is/are able to gather resources.

 

If the evolutionary sexual drive to reproduce to survive the millenia were a primary function (vs self survival) I think we would see more participation from the males of the species in regards to their offspring survival. This is not the case for the majority of life on this planet. If this is not the case for the majority of the life on the planet, how can it be a stronger drive than self survival?

[InfiniteNow]

We are a collection of cells. Old cells are continually dying and new cells continually coming into existence. The cells only purpose is to process stuff and send their deoxyribonucleic acid into new cells... into their "offspring." Gathering resources/energy (eating) is a means to an end. The Adenosine 5'-triphosphate (ATP) is only to perform life giving functions, the primary function being to send their DNA into the next generation so other cells can do the same. We, as a collection of cells, are no different.

[Cedars]

We are a collection of cells. Old cells are continually dying and new cells continually coming into existence. The cells only purpose is to process stuff and send their deoxyribonucleic acid into new cells... into their "offspring." Gathering resources/energy (eating) is a means to an end. The Adenosine 5'-triphosphate (ATP) is only to perform life giving functions, the primary function being to send their DNA into the next generation so other cells can do the same. We, as a collection of cells, are no different.

 

Roughly, this is an example of asexual behavior, cloning if you will. Mammals do not participate in asexual behavior (for the most part). Mammals that do partake in asexual behavior fail to pass on their genetics and are irrelevant for this topic, I believe.

 

I am unsure of the point you were trying to make along the lines of evolved reasons for our motivations and evolutionary psychology. These collections of cells are not independent of the whole body they are wrapped up in. Its kinda like saying the behavior of some leaves on a limb of a tree explains the function of the tree.

 

Could you define your meaning for me and how this correlates to our motivations such as the drive to gamble is sexual (as you claimed) or self-survival/hunt for resources (as I claim)?

[InfiniteNow]

I am unsure of the point you were trying to make along the lines of evolved reasons for our motivations and evolutionary psychology. These collections of cells are not independent of the whole body they are wrapped up in.

You are correct, but I did not make a point that they were independent. Where'd you get that?

 

Its kinda like saying the behavior of some leaves on a limb of a tree explains the function of the tree.

Nope. Trees are not made up of leaves, but cells. Just as we are. The analogy doesn't fit.

 

Could you define your meaning for me and how this correlates to our motivations such as the drive to gamble is sexual (as you claimed) or self-survival/hunt for resources (as I claim)?

Cells purpose: make more cells.

We are made of cells.

 

Me talk caveman now... :hyper:

 

Perhaps (clearly, the key word here) the aggregate of the cell behavior plays a role in our own behavior. Aquisition of resources is a means to an end...

 

 

Is it possible that I am wrong? Of course. I will always concede that possibility. It also might be a bit apples and oranges. I just place a higher value on the passing on of ones genes than I do on one's personal survival. I do this based on the reading I've done into biology and psychology and my experience with people.

 

 

Anyway... Cheers. :hyper: