Colonizing the Solar System

[Skywyze]

Not a bad idea, but it seems comletely unfeasible.

What about the Intense Heat of entering and exiting the Atmosphere?

 

This wouldn't be a problem. The heat of reentry is caused by friction when a high-velocity object comes in contact with the atmosphere. A slow moving elevator wouldn't generate the same intense heat as a high-speed spacecraft.

 

Plus what about all that space debris hitting it?

A paint chip in space impacts like a .44 caliber at close range. (or so I heard)

What happens if there is a break in the elevator somewhere?

 

Space debris IS a potential problem. The solution would probably be an electromagnetic shield. Carbon nanotubes have been shown to be able to carry a current. (I believe they can also generate a current by moving through a magnetic field) This property could be used to generate a field that would repulse most small debris. Larger stuff would have to be removed by orbiting robots or clean-up crews.

 

The elevator would need to consist of several ribbons, so if one breaks we will be able to go up and repair it with relative ease. If they all break, the outer end flys off into space, and the lower end falls to the earth, causing much damage to the surrounding area. (Imagine several miles of cable and equipment falling from space...)

 

PS. I see you're from Portland.

Seems we Got a good percentage of Hypo's from Portland Area!!

Including Myself, Turtle, and BioChemist! :eek:

 

Portland is a great place to live! :) Glad there are so many of us on here.

[Racoon]

 

Space debris IS a potential problem. The solution would probably be an electromagnetic shield. Carbon nanotubes have been shown to be able to carry a current. (I believe they can also generate a current by moving through a magnetic field)

 

Portland is a great place to live! :) Glad there are so many of us on here.

 

Yeah, I love it here too.

I'm from VanCrazy!! :eek:

 

I think you got a great idea.

Now assuming that the Tech can be implemented..

The problem becomes paying for it!???

We can't even fund schools as you well know..

Let alone some thing of this magnitude..

 

My solution to that is We Divert Billions from the Military Budget, and get International support as well.

 

Robots cleaning large space debris doesn't seem that great/possible. Because of the sheer speed at which it travels.

I think firing something at it,like an Electromagnetic PulseRay Like in the video game Asteroids to divert its course might be more feasible..

 

Interesting thread.

Thought provoking! :)

 

Still, I'm wondering how Han Solo walked around the Millenium Falcon??

Is there a way to induce Earth like-Gravity??

Gravity Inducer..??

[TheFaithfulStone]

If they all break, the outer end flys off into space, and the lower end falls to the earth, causing much damage to the surrounding area. (Imagine several miles of cable and equipment falling from space...)

 

Not exactly true. The outer end flys off into space (beginning at GEO I think, and the rest comes down, but it has to fall for such a long distance, and nanotubes are so light that it would be more like a world wide ticker tape parade than anything, plus, it would fall right around the equator, which of course, is a spot on earth where there just aren't that many people.

 

A space elevator collapse would be more of a disaster because it took a long time to build that damn thing than it would for stuff falling to earth.

 

TFS

[just picking a nit.]

[Jay-qu]

well then i would also like to 'pick a nit'. wont most of the higher orbit stuff falling just burn up in the atmosphere...

[TheFaithfulStone]

Still, I'm wondering how Han Solo walked around the Millenium Falcon?? Is there a way to induce Earth like-Gravity??

Gravity Inducer..??

 

Sure - just accelerate at 9.8 m/s/s straight UP, relative to your head.

 

Voila! Earth normal gravity.

 

:)

 

But seriously, walk around on the deck like that? Nope. Gravity control is essential to reasonable interstellar travel - if you have gravity control you're a hop skip and a jump from effective FTL (maybe) or failing that, Firefly type travel (mass control). Gravity control is a "holy grail" technology. If you find it, (and you can convince everyone it works) you'll be rich beyond your wildest dreams.

 

TFS

[Jay-qu]

Sure - just accelerate at 9.8 m/s/s straight UP, relative to your head.

 

Voila! Earth normal gravity.

 

:)

 

But seriously, walk around on the deck like that? Nope. Gravity control is essential to reasonable interstellar travel - if you have gravity control you're a hop skip and a jump from effective FTL (maybe) or failing that, Firefly type travel (mass control). Gravity control is a "holy grail" technology. If you find it, (and you can convince everyone it works) you'll be rich beyond your wildest dreams.

 

TFS

or live inside a spinning cylinder thats rotating at the speed needed for its diameter to produce a 9.8m/s/s acceleration towards the middle.

[CraigD]

I agree that colonization is possible without these technologies, and in fact I think colonization is possible NOW. However, I believe you are underestimating the rate of technological advancement, which is proceeding at an exponential rate itself. A few centuries is a VERY long time for technological growth, just look at the last century...

I hope I am – space elevators are beautiful technologies I’d love to live to see. I’m far from certain they will ever exist, though, as the engineering challenges they present are, to repeat myself truly daunting.

 

Consider this scenario: Advanced semi-autonomous unmanned vehicles, launched using 20th century technology, arrive after the usual multi-year trip in the Jovian moon/ring system. There, some drop electricity-generating tethers onto the surfaces of suitable minor moons, using the power to extract silicates and metals to construct large solar-power panels, more vehicles, and special-purpose particle accelerator/collector/refrigerators. Others collect hydrogen and oxygen from the atmospheres of Jupiter and Europa for use in conventional rocket motors. After decades of mining and assembly, immense solar-powered particle accelerators are boosted out of Jovian orbit into long, low-energy transfer orbits, ending in solar orbits closer than that of Mercury. There, they generate and expend hundreds of thousands of times the current artificial electrical output of Earth to, at very low efficiency, create, cool, and store at near absolute zero hundreds of kilograms of anti-hydrogen. This anti-hydrogen is used to fuel human passenger capable spacecraft capable of sustained multi-g acceleration and repeated Earth landings and launches.

 

Once started, the industry-like process can expand, though not to unlimited size, to a great enough size that, after 50 to 75 years, transportation from Earth to other locations in the solar system is as available as 20th century air travel. Limiting acceleration to a human-comfortable 1 g, inner-planet destinations require 1-2 day flights, Jupiter 3-4 days, Neptune, the outermost great planet, 7-8, Pluto and other Kuiper objects 9+.

 

Here is a highly energy-inefficient technological system that completely opens the solar system to human colonization, yet requires no material unavailable in the 20th century. The great virtue of space elevators are their energy efficiency. In a technological system with abundant energy, elegant as they are, space-elevators might be as irrelevant as super-efficient light-emitting panels are in present day, modestly electric energy-rich, incandescent light-bulb-loving 1st world countries.

 

This is, or course, clearly just on of many speculative scenarios, no more necessarily likely than a low-energy, high-efficiency solar system-colonizing civilization with super-strong materials and space elevators. But it’s no less necessarily likely, either.

[Skywyze]

Not exactly true. The outer end flys off into space (beginning at GEO I think, and the rest comes down, but it has to fall for such a long distance, and nanotubes are so light that it would be more like a world wide ticker tape parade than anything, plus, it would fall right around the equator, which of course, is a spot on earth where there just aren't that many people.

 

A space elevator collapse would be more of a disaster because it took a long time to build that damn thing than it would for stuff falling to earth.

 

TFS

[just picking a nit.]

 

Good point! :shrug:

[Skywyze]

Gravity control is a "holy grail" technology. If you find it, (and you can convince everyone it works) you'll be rich beyond your wildest dreams.

 

Heim Quantum Theory proposes a test that would prove or disprove it, I say we try it. If it works it would give us greater understanding and control of gravity, and would even allow for anti-grav and "Gravity-Inducers." If Burkard Heim is right, Star Wars won't be all that far off...

[TheFaithfulStone]

Add your thoughts.

 

http://hypography.com/forums/physics-mathematics/5026-heim-theory.html

 

I've done some more research into this and have come to the conclusions that its BS. BUT, I do think that Heim has some pretty profound insights. It's his math that seems iffy. (You know, according to people who understand math.)

 

TFS

[Skywyze]

Could you explain to me why you came to such a conclusion, or have you, like so many others, outright rejected Heim's theory based solely on the fact that you dont understand it?

[Racoon]

This is still brainstorming.

 

Colonizing the Solar system and beyond,, :hyper: :hyper: :) :hyper:

 

Maybe a feed tube might not be the best idea.

Maybe start a feed/nano tube after you got it off of Earth. :eek:

No re-entry repurcussions..

 

Meanwhile you tap The Solar Energy at Moon Stations. Build a moon Base. Moon base would be easier to blast off from! :)

Gonna need Oxygen..

Other things..

 

Send the tube from there like a Railroad system. Establish contact..

And spread like Pioneers!! :)

[TheFaithfulStone]

If you'll post your thoughts in the Heim Theory thread, we can talk about it there. I don't want to hijack this thread though.

 

TFS

[Eclipse Now]

I hope I am – space elevators are beautiful technologies I’d love to live to see. I’m far from certain they will ever exist, though, as the engineering challenges they present are, to repeat myself truly daunting.

 

Consider this scenario: Advanced semi-autonomous unmanned vehicles, launched using 20th century technology, arrive after the usual multi-year trip in the Jovian moon/ring system. There, some drop electricity-generating tethers onto the surfaces of suitable minor moons, using the power to extract silicates and metals to construct large solar-power panels, more vehicles, and special-purpose particle accelerator/collector/refrigerators. Others collect hydrogen and oxygen from the atmospheres of Jupiter and Europa for use in conventional rocket motors.

 

This scenario blows my mind. However, for solar power wouldn't the moon be a closer place to manufacture it? If the solar power factories run on solar panels the intitial robots made, it could grow exponentially...

 

After decades of mining and assembly, immense solar-powered particle accelerators are boosted out of Jovian orbit into long, low-energy transfer orbits, ending in solar orbits closer than that of Mercury. There, they generate and expend hundreds of thousands of times the current artificial electrical output of Earth to, at very low efficiency, create, cool, and store at near absolute zero hundreds of kilograms of anti-hydrogen. This anti-hydrogen is used to fuel human passenger capable spacecraft capable of sustained multi-g acceleration and repeated Earth landings and launches.

Wow...

 

Once started, the industry-like process can expand, though not to unlimited size, to a great enough size that, after 50 to 75 years, transportation from Earth to other locations in the solar system is as available as 20th century air travel. Limiting acceleration to a human-comfortable 1 g, inner-planet destinations require 1-2 day flights, Jupiter 3-4 days, Neptune, the outermost great planet, 7-8, Pluto and other Kuiper objects 9+.

 

Now this is really interesting. Anyone got figures for the g's of STOPPING the other end after accelerating at 1g constantly? :hyper: Or do these timeframes include turning around at the half way point and decelerating at 1g the rest of the trip.

 

Imagine the in-flight entertainment. "Ladies and gentlemen, half way approaches. Please secure all your belongings and strap yourself in for 5 minutes of Zero g, and if you are likely to feel nauseated, please use the refuse bag".

 

Here is a highly energy-inefficient technological system that completely opens the solar system to human colonization, yet requires no material unavailable in the 20th century. The great virtue of space elevators are their energy efficiency. In a technological system with abundant energy, elegant as they are, space-elevators might be as irrelevant as super-efficient light-emitting panels are in present day, modestly electric energy-rich, incandescent light-bulb-loving 1st world countries.

Point taken, although I'm still of the opinion that we're going to see an energy bottleneck for the next decade or so as we hit peak oil and try and just adapt to the end of cheap oil...

 

...but after this debacle, and our society has adapted to a renewable "electron economy", who knows WHAT our grandchildren will be able to achieve?

[CraigD]

hope I am – space elevators are beautiful technologies I’d love to live to see. I’m far from certain they will ever exist, though, as the engineering challenges they present are, to repeat myself truly daunting.

 

Consider this scenario: Advanced semi-autonomous unmanned vehicles, launched using 20th century technology, arrive after the usual multi-year trip in the Jovian moon/ring system. There, some drop electricity-generating tethers onto the surfaces of suitable minor moons, using the power to extract silicates and metals to construct large solar-power panels, more vehicles, and special-purpose particle accelerator/collector/refrigerators. Others collect hydrogen and oxygen from the atmospheres of Jupiter and Europa for use in conventional rocket motors.

This scenario blows my mind.

Mine too. :) I wish I could claim to have invented it, but I actually got it from reading Stross’s 2005 novel Accelerando. I’m pretty sure Stross got the idea from someone who heard it from someone who heard it from ... its original inventor, whom I know not.

However, for solar power wouldn't the moon be a closer place to manufacture it? If the solar power factories run on solar panels the intitial robots made, it could grow exponentially...

The plan described here involves the construction of large Electrodynamic tethers, which depend on the presence of body with a lot of kinetic energy (the minor moon) relative to a magnetic field (Jupiter’s), not sunlight.

 

Regardless of what’s built to generate power where, however, the principle that using it to build more power-generating factories leads to exponentially growth, applies.

After decades of mining and assembly, immense solar-powered particle accelerators are boosted out of Jovian orbit into long, low-energy transfer orbits, ending in solar orbits closer than that of Mercury. There, they generate and expend hundreds of thousands of times the current artificial electrical output of Earth to, at very low efficiency, create, cool, and store at near absolute zero hundreds of kilograms of anti-hydrogen. This anti-hydrogen is used to fuel human passenger capable spacecraft capable of sustained multi-g acceleration and repeated Earth landings and launches.

Wow...

Again, me too, and again, not my original idea. This one, I think, can be credited to Freeman Dyson (it’s one of many variations on partial Dyson spheres), and Robert Forward, who proposes near-sun orbiting solar-powered antimatter factories in such non-fiction works as Indistinguishable from Magic.

Once started, the industry-like process can expand, though not to unlimited size, to a great enough size that, after 50 to 75 years, transportation from Earth to other locations in the solar system is as available as 20th century air travel. Limiting acceleration to a human-comfortable 1 g, inner-planet destinations require 1-2 day flights, Jupiter 3-4 days, Neptune, the outermost great planet, 7-8, Pluto and other Kuiper objects 9+.

Now this is really interesting. Anyone got figures for the g's of STOPPING the other end after accelerating at 1g constantly? :( Or do these timeframes include turning around at the half way point and decelerating at 1g the rest of the trip.

They assume constant acceleration, forward half way, backward the rest of the way.

Imagine the in-flight entertainment. "Ladies and gentlemen, half way approaches. Please secure all your belongings and strap yourself in for 5 minutes of Zero g, and if you are likely to feel nauseated, please use the refuse bag".

Give these and more severe perils (eg: lose items becoming projectiles upon the resumption of acceleration), I imagine the turnaround would be done under the usual 1 g acceleration, requiring a slight adjustment in course before and/or after turnaround to compensate for the off-direction acceleration - just one of many factors impacting course planning.

Point taken, although I'm still of the opinion that we're going to see an energy bottleneck for the next decade or so as we hit peak oil and try and just adapt to the end of cheap oil...

 

...but after this debacle, and our society has adapted to a renewable "electron economy", who knows WHAT our grandchildren will be able to achieve?

I agree. The scenario I describe is very optimistic, and connected to no certain time frame.

 

The idea that it’s generations away, however, is no more well-supported than that it’s just around the corner. In our present day society, the great driver of extremely expensive projects is, I think, the prospect of either

• Survival, as during the cold war days of the early US and USSR space programs
  
• Making extremely great profits
  

Since, barring some very unlikely events, the idea that immediate human survival will depend on colonizing space is, I think, unlikely, we’re left with “making lots of money”. Though the orders-of-magnitude greater energy systems I describe could, at present, clearly make huge fortunes, I think more modest, short-term profit-making projects are needed, such as mining asteroids for rare metals, or the Moon for rare isotopes like Helium-3. I strongly suspect that, as RAH (and Robert L Forward, also) predicted, it will be greedy businesspeople who most further space colonization, rather than science and technology purists.

[Eclipse Now]

Surely one of the main drivers of the really HUGE exponential scenarios is the self-replicating "robots" described in the scenario's above? Do you think they have to be self-aware or approaching human level awareness of their surroundings (even given different senses etc), to be able to do their job? Or could they be partially directed? Or will good old fashioned human beings get out there in habitats to manufacture these energy sources?

 

Also, has anyone ever used actual anti-hydrogen or is that still just theoretical?

 

But I agree... in a scenario of unlimited power, who needs a slow, 'old fashioned' device like the space elevator (which could take a few days to ascend) when you can just get directly in the craft that is going to fly you all the way to your destination within the week?

 

I love this kind of techno-utopian dreaming, it's so refreshingly optimistic after considering the possibilities of collapse due to some peak oil Mad Max event. I used to worry that such an event might be inevitable... but I think that was more a reflection of my state of mind a few years ago than any reality. It is certainly possible that we'll nuke each other back to the stone age over the remaining oil, but hopefully that is only a very small possibility, and given recent trends in climate awareness hopefully peak oil will just propel us forward into a clean, green, energy secure and jobs-rich economy. Rather than 700 billion dollars a year leaving the USA for overseas oil, a renewable electron economy would put that 700 billion into fast rail (to offset ailing airlines), algae to jet fuel (to enable some airlines and some military fuels), BEV's for the domestic user (battery electric vehicles with SatNav's directing your trip to the nearest charging point or battery swap robot using WW2 bomber bay clips, see my post here for details of this starting in Israel), and of course ATTRACTIVE New Urbanism for the trendy, local, walking distance Urban environment that allows people to live "more European than European" in a car free zone in the first place! (A much more economical, efficient, trendy, and beautiful way to live than suburbia in my opinion. Instead of driving to work, imagine walking past your favourite bookstores and coffee shops).

 

So, the comforting thing in all this is that I imagine the first real human habitations in the asteroid belt or Mars or the Moon or even space habitats to be far more "New Urban" and "local economy" than anything we've known on earth.:(

 

Maybe social experimentation for those underground Martian habitats should be done in tightly planned New Urbanism townships here? Take 200 people and force them to live in military bunkers for a few years to simulate the first settlement, and then after a few years of building simulated 'materials' from the desert sand (or simulated regolith), they can then start to move out into the New Urban / space hybrid settlements they've built themselves?

 

Unless of course those 'robots' arrive just in the nick of time to build it all for them before they get there. :)

[Moontanman]

The Jovian system will be a harsh environment for even robots much less humans. The radiation is quite intense, and complex computers are vulnerable, humans are out of the question. Saturn might present a better environment for both humans and robots.