Miracles?

[IrishEyes]

Oh, and for the record, I agree with both Unc and sage...

 

Life is both common, ordinary, AND miraculous. I see this on a pretty regular basis. I think it is a matter of opinion, whether you think of life as a miracle or not. On a daily basis, I think life is VERY commonplace, and not all that exciting. However, had you asked me a few days ago, after witnessing a new life entering this world, I was overflowing with how miraculous life is! So to me, it's the situation, I guess.

[Freethinker]

Originally posted by: sage

 

Show us ANY event that is proven to be a MIRACLE. Just one will do for a start. Something that lacks a NATURAL explanation for it. ANYTHING. Just ONE!

 

Miracle are rather science in annon understandable form

In other words you have nothing to stand behind your claims. We figured.

........ it may even be noted that the origin of life as such is a mysterios miracle

In waht way does the origin of life violate the laws of physics, be specific.

( of course we have the darwin theory but it aint foolproof )

Not only is it not perfect, it ahs been updated significantly from the simple Darwinian concept of evolution. But that would require you to catch up on the last 150 years of scientific research.

......... then about the millions that die daily they are not treated horribly rather they get an earlier visa to heaven

Ah yes, Christians area always so glad to see OTHERS "get an earlier visa to heaven" and so willing to help them on their way. Why don't ypu do yourself the same favor if it is so great? And you can make it a long slow painful death like a lot of these others you so warmly wish their fate on!

...we must be happy that god has chose millions to accompany him in heaven

What a monster your god is. To intentionally bring these humans to life just to torture them horribly for most of their lives. Just so he can then pretend to save them!

 

If he was so great, loving and powerful he would not choose to torture them in between.

 

I not only would find worshiping this monster of yours unaccetable, I would not even want him as a neighbor.

.....also it is a natural process by which god does csome check on the greatest disaster -"the population boom".....

So once more the most powerful entity in exstence can only solve human problems by torture and slaughter. If you believe this you are as sick as the god you claim is responsible.

[Freethinker]

Originally posted by: IrishEyes

I also understand the desire for people to use correct terminology, but I also think that THAT is asking way too much for simplified conversations sometimes. While I understand and appreciate the difference between abiogenesis and darwinian evolution, and I also know that they are not really interchangeable terms, I also understand that they are usually used interchangably.

...

FreeT and Unc are both right in that a miracle should defy the laws of science. If it doesn't, then it isn't really a miracle.

And it is exactly here that we run into the problems which demands agreement on terms before discussions are possible. If we allow people to say Evolution when they MEAN Abiogenesis, then when they calim Evolutuion is flawed beacuse of the high probablity of the first cell forming, we find we are back at the beginning with no common ground to work from. No CORRECT common ground.

 

Just as the complication here with "miracle", here you use it quite correctly:

a miracle should defy the laws of science. If it doesn't, then it isn't really a miracle

Then your next post you completely violate your own supplied defitnion.

Originally posted by: IrishEyes

after witnessing a new life entering this world, I was overflowing with how miraculous life is!

So show us EXACTLY how a child's birth

def(ies) the laws of science

This is why it is so hard to carry on a rational/ intellectualy honest discussion with believers. They invent new definitions and rules with each post, sometimes each sentence. And that is why those of us here that use logic and reason, at a SCIENCE site, work so hard to keep terms being used as they are intended to be used and require proof for the ramblings religionists live their lives by.

 

Because otherwise we have to put up with such garbage as "there are miracles all around us if you just look! Oh, ya they follow completely natural processes, but they are miracles anyway!"

[IrishEyes]

FreeT, you're right about most of your 7/31 4:58 post, sort of. It just makes me laugh to think of you and me being on different sides of an argument about absolutes, especially when we're on opposite sides of what most people would think we would be.

 

You seem to be going for the "100% correct terminology for every situation", a very absolutist stance, I feel. Yet i am taking a much more liberal, "use terminology that is generally acceptable to most people for a given situation or circumstance" approach.

 

The birth of a child does not defy the laws of science. However, it is truly amazing. So a more correct assessment of my day might have been "I was overflowing with how AMAZING life is". However, as I was there at that birth, and the fact that this particular mother made it through the labor and delivery with no medical intervention (spunky girl even managed to forego the i.v.), in my mind it leans more towards 'miraculous'. Now, technically, it did not defy any scientific laws. It defied the rules of the hospital, and that could be seen as miraculous... It defied the wishes of the woman's mother, and the husband thought THAT was miraculous... but technically, you're right - the birth itself was not a miracle.

 

However, i don't think this means that I invented a new definition for the word "miracle', nor did I cahnge the word just for this post. And as for the term "miracle" being used as it was intended... webster.com states as the second definition of MIRACLE... 2 : an extremely outstanding or unusual event, thing, or accomplishment ...

 

That said, I contend that the birth of that child WAS an extremely outstanding accomplishment, and therefore...MIRACULOUS!!!!!!

[Uncle Martin]

Originally posted by: IrishEyes

While I understand and appreciate the difference between abiogenesis and darwinian evolution, and I also know that they are not really interchangeable terms, I also understand that they are usually used interchangably.

The two terms are only "usually" used interchangeably by the creationists in an attempt to refute evolution. The context it is "usually" used in is nothing short of a bold faced lie. To consider that as acceptable behavior is ridiculous! That is why correct terminology IS important. If sloppy linguistics is the only argument against evolution, I suggest those that have tried to refute it just concede.

*Many* people will use the word "evolution" when trying to explain the origin of life.

I, and others I'm sure, will correct them every time. (can you guess who I'm talking about?)

I propose that in this PHILOSOPHY thread, we dispense with the long corrections unless the transposition clearly causes serious confusion or misrepresentation of the facts.

It is either right or wrong, I see no more gray areas in philosophy than in physics. We do allow alot of leeway here, but not disinformation.

In this case, what was said by sage really doesn't make a bit of difference as it was the opinion of sage, that the origin of life was a miracle.

Edit: You left out the part where he implies evolution is somehow related to the origin of life. Just an oversight on your part I'm sure.

The more that incorrect information (lies) are tolerated, the more they will be accepted as truth. THAT DOES make a BIG DIFFERENCE. Religious dogma, U S politics and media are some good examples of why this type of thing can't be allowed to proliferate.

[IrishEyes]

The more that incorrect information (lies) are tolerated, the more they will be accepted as truth.

 

Misspeaking a word, or even using a word or term incorrectly, does not make a person a liar. Incorrect information is not always the same as a lie. The leaps of logic that happen around here astound me!

 

And while I agree that intentional misrepresentation of facts should be pointed out, I think it is overkill to pick apart every post that you disagree with line by line and expose what you consider to be every inaccuracy and represent those as lies.

 

I will be the first to admit to being guilty of this very thing, even recently, I'm ashamed to say. And while I may have made a point, I also realize that I wasted a lot of time pointing out an inconsistency that made little difference to anyone but me. Grammar is my pet peave. Terminology seems to be yours these days. I'm just saying that just because I may find some things worth fighting about, many others probably don't care so much, so maybe I should lay off. Maybe we all should cut each other some slack on the more trivial things, and save the "discussing" for the more major points???? I feel that the particular statement you chose to single out was relatively minor in relation to the rest of that post. It just seemed to me to be nit-picking. But if it's really that important to you, PLEASE start a topic in the EVOLUTION forum about the difference, so we can all become more educated. (No, I'm not being sarcastic, i'd actually really enjoy that topic!)

[Uncle Martin]

Of course you don't want it pointed out that the terms are different, it is your only(false) argument against evolution. How about this; There is no discernable difference between christians and muslims and jews, they all believe exactly the same thing, so for the sake of a philisophical discussion we will call them all muslims. Irish is muslim, I'll start spreading the news everywhere, since it really doesn't matter. Unless you want to nitpick and spell out to everyone what the differences are. Even though there really are none.

[Tormod]

Originally posted by: Uncle Martin

Irish is muslim

 

Now THAT'S what I call a miracle!

[IrishEyes]

Of course you don't want it pointed out that the terms are different, it is your only(false) argument against evolution.

 

Now YOU are the one that's being an absolutist, and you even happen to be incorrect on this one!

How very presumptuos of you to assUme that I only have one argument against evolution! Maybe that proves we're related after all, huh?

Unc, if you feel the need to tell everyone and their brother's dog that I'm a Muslim, or Jew, or any other thing, please feel free to go right ahead. It's your perogative. Shout it from the highest mountain. The people in this forum would know you were full of crap, for the most part... and anyone out of this forum that you could tell likely wouldn't care anyway. That's exactly my point. I would know what you were saying was wrong, but I doubt I'd feel the need to correct you every single time you said it, or even every time someone here said it. Correcting once or twice might happen, just for the record. But I doubt I'd feel the need to correct every person that came to this site if they incorrectly stated my religious affiliation. Seriously, there are more important things to concentrate on, in my opinion.

[IrishEyes]

Of course, on another note Unc, there is a difference between what you propose - intentionally telling a lie about an individual for a malicious purpose- ... and what sage did - using an incorrect term.

 

Hmmmmmmmm, which do YOU consider worse?

[Uncle Martin]

First, in my opinion there really are no differences in the three religions mentioned. Monotheism is monotheism, what you call your god is irrelevant. To me it would not be a lie, but c'mon, it was meant to prove a point, get it? Geez!!!

 

What sage said was incorrect. We don't know if he intentionally stated false information, or if he was simply repeating what the creationists do intentionally lie about all over the web, in churches and bible schools. They intentionally spread this lie. The number of people visiting this site that believe this to be true is evidence that someone, somewhere is intentionally promoting the spread of false information. How can you not see the importance of truth over falsehood? Regardless of the intent, false information is going to be challenged.

 

I certainly wouldn't want people to let me post wrong assertions and not correct me,..as if that could ever happen. I not only expect to be corrected, I welcome it. If the "believers" in this forum expect some sort of preferential treatment, they will be VERY disappointed.

[Uncle Martin]

Originally posted by: IrishEyes

And while I agree that intentional misrepresentation of facts should be pointed out,

Whew!! At least I can still reply once in a while.

I think it is overkill to pick apart every post that you disagree with line by line and expose what you consider to be every inaccuracy

How do you propose we discuss anything without pointing out perceived flaws? Am I now expected to agree with everything that everyone posts for fear of hurting someone's feelings? I question everything, that is how I learn and hopefully become a better person. It is not in my nature to allow that which I disagree with to go unchallenged. Not only for the hope of teaching someone what I consider to be the correct view, but to not miss an opportunity for them to possibly show me that their point may be valid and I may be wrong. Sentence by sentence is the most accurate means of responding intelligently to a post that often has multiple subjects, for me at least.

and represent those as lies.

My apologies if those statements were misinterpreted or poorly worded. My intent was to point out the standard creationist teachings equating the origin of life with evolution as lies at the source. Many people have been mislead by these, they are merely repeating what they "believe" to be true.

[Uncle Martin]

This thread has gone way off topic, especially when you consider it is the moderators doing it. If you STILL can't see the importance of what Freethinker and I are arguing, we should perhaps start a topic titled "Does accurate terminology matter?". We can even do a poll. Seems foolish to me, but.........it still seems foolish to me.

[Freethinker]

Originally posted by: IrishEyes

You seem to be going for the "100% correct terminology for every situation", a very absolutist stance, I feel. Yet i am taking a much more liberal, "use terminology that is generally acceptable to most people for a given situation or circumstance" approach.

I don't see anything "liberal" about allowing people to use incorrect and at times false and misleading termonology. That is definately a conservative tactic. "Unborn babies", "partial birth abortion", WMD's, PATRIOT ACT, Clear Skies act, ...

 

They INVENT or ABUSE terms in order to genereate a knee jerk emotional response and st0op intellectually honest discussion.

(q)The birth of a child does not defy the laws of science. However, it is truly amazing. So a more correct assessment of my day might have been "I was overflowing with how AMAZING life is". ... but technically, you're right - the birth itself was not a miracle.

Thus we find once more that when Christian makes a claim and you check into it, the claim falls apart. Miracles, instead of being something that violates the laws of physics we are all stuck with, becomes a

MIRACLE... 2 : an extremely outstanding or unusual event, thing, or accomplishment ...

But if, the next time a Christian CLAIMS a miracle happened, we use this def, they would reject the def and claim their god was responsible

 

That is until they have to prove it again, then it will once more change for their convenience and to try to confuse the issue.

That said, I contend that the birth of that child WAS an extremely outstanding accomplishment, and therefore...MIRACULOUS!!!!!!

Actually, millions do it every day. With or without our incredible medical knowledge.

 

To some, the experience of bringing a child into this world is a wonderful expereince. To others it represents the outcome of incest, rape or failure of birthcontrol. To even more still it is the result of 3rd world poverty and the forced suppression of birth control knowledge by religious missionaries which results in massive ove rpopulation, starvation and a short painful life.

 

But that is all part of your loving god's perfect plan.

 

What a miracle...

 

... that anyone believes that religious hogwash!

[Freethinker]

Originally posted by: IrishEyes

The more that incorrect information (lies) are tolerated, the more they will be accepted as truth.

Incorrect information is not always the same as a lie. The leaps of logic that happen around here astound me!

So a person can intentionally provide information they KNOW is wrong and it is NOT a lie? YEs you ARE a Christian aren't you!

 

However I do make one differentiation. While "Incorrect information" is ALWAYS a "LIE". Not everyone that repeats the lie is a "LIAR". If the person is ignorant of the truth and just repeating what they have heard, they may not be "lying" as it is not INTENTIONAL.

 

However, when they have been shown that it IS a LIE and they STILL repeat it, then they ARE LIARS.

And while I agree that intentional misrepresentation of facts should be pointed out, I think it is overkill to pick apart every post that you disagree with line by line and expose what you consider to be every inaccuracy and represent those as lies.

What we run into here all the time is mis-information and even blantant lies. We also run into ton's of poorly constructed arguments filled with Fallacies of Argumentation. In those cases there is no valid reason to repond to the context of the quote. There is nothing in the context that is accurate enough or suppoprted enough to have a reasoned discussion about. The best one can do is to take the post section by section and help the person over there ignorance and reliance on fallacies.

 

Some however are not interested in learning. They do not want to improve their reasoning skills or knowledge base. Some will even state that they want to believe in lies and fallacies even though they have absolutely no proof behind their claimed beliefs. If a person wants to intentionally stay ignorant, that is their decision. But when they then post a lie, especially one that they have been shown that it is a lie, it should be specifically identified as the lie it is.

Grammar is my pet peave.

then learn to identify the reference for a statement before claiming someone else is wrong.

Maybe we all should cut each other some slack on the more Incorrect informations, and save the "discussing" for the more major points????

Yes I think we can all agree to this. But to claim that distorting Evolution by pretending it has something to do with abiogenesis in order to try and refute Evolution is NOT "Incorrect information", it is a LIE. One that is promoted heavily by Christian Creationists of which MANY KNOW it is a LIE and they LIE on purpose because they can convince their sheep that way.

I feel that the particular statement you chose to single out was relatively minor in relation to the rest of that post. It just seemed to me to be nit-picking. But if it's really that important to you, PLEASE start a topic in the EVOLUTION forum about the difference, so we can all become more educated. (No, I'm not being sarcastic, i'd actually really enjoy that topic!)

We have. Then that thread goes away and someone comes on to another thread and posts the same LIES over again. So we must waste everyone's time exposing the latest (potential) liar.

 

If anyone gets frustrated with this, it is people like Unc and I that have to spend so much time correcting LIES and FALLACIES in order to occasionally have a reasoned discussion.

[Freethinker]

Originally posted by: Uncle Martin

How about this; There is no discernable difference between christians and muslims and jews, they all believe exactly the same thing, so for the sake of a philisophical discussion we will call them all muslims.

 

Ah yes, Mohammad the other white meat!

 

Just like Christians want to claim theirs to be the largest religious group, yet each rejects each other one as not being a TRUE Christian. We hear that all 3 of these religions worship the same god. Even though that are all actively killing the other one and claim their god is more powerful!

[Freethinker]

Originally posted by: Tormod

Originally posted by: Uncle Martin

Irish is muslim

Now THAT'S what I call a miracle!

ALLAH be praised! lol