The Creator

[galaxy]

Greetings everybody. I am new to this site and although as an artist my brain is totally right sided, I am a very inquisitive person and I like to read about your theories and philosophies, I find them fascinating. I am sorry if I can't contribute much with scientific or mathematical knowledge since I am not to great in these areas (although I would have loved to be, I am more talented in the creative side)

Well I was just wondering what your opinions were on God. I know many scientists including Einstein believe that there is a God who created all things, however others deny this possibility. I know each individual might have a different personal opinion as far as their religious believes, but I was just wondering if there is any scientific fact that makes it certain that there is God. Also you guys mentioned dimensions ... after life in the physical, can it be possible that our spirit travel to another none physical dimension and live there?

 

I am sorry if my questions sound too spiritual, as I mentioned before I am a very inquisitive person, and I really found many intelligent comments here, so I was just wondering your opinions regarding this subject. Text

[Uncle Martin]

Welcome to our forum Galaxy,

You will find many interesting thoughts on the "Creator" here. I encourage you to read some of the other topics in the philosophy and humanities group.

 

I moved this topic from physics and mathematics because these god debates can get quite long winded and heated.

[Freethinker]

Originally posted by: galaxy

Greetings everybody. I am new to this site

Hi Galaxy, we "met" on another thread. I was suprised by your dramatically conflicting stances. First you claimed to support HUmanism, then you give it all up and bow down to a mythical god.

 

But these are all things that can be discussed. If your interested in a reasoned factual discussion.

and although as an artist my brain is totally right sided, I am a very inquisitive person and I like to read about your theories and philosophies, I find them fascinating.

While each person tends to have their own balance of "right" or "left" brained thinking, we all can use both more than well enough. The most that could be said is that some people INTENTIONALLY CHOOSE to IGNORE one side or other. (You'll get used to it, I use caps for emphasys quite a bit. No one can see my hand guestures!) You can obviously use logic and reasoning in many things in your daily life. It is just a matter of if you want to draw a line somewhere. A line at which point you INTENTIONALLY stop allowing yourself to apply that reasoning and logic. Will we find that line?

I am sorry if I can't contribute much with scientific or mathematical knowledge since I am not to great in these areas (although I would have loved to be, I am more talented in the creative side)

Don't appologize, just contribute. Just be honest about what you DO know and what you'd like to learn. And when I say "be honest", unfortunately in the past we ahve had a number of self proclaimed Christians that claimed they KNEW the TRUTH and were ready to share it with us. But when it came to actually being able to show us anything to discuss, they just left.

 

I hope you are interested in a good honest discussion. We have much to learn from each other.

Well I was just wondering what your opinions were on God.

Which one? Even you Christians can't agree on what YOUR god is. How can I answer whether I accept something if I don't know what I am being asked? When Christianity was first being invented, the Romans called Christians "Atheists" because the Christians only believed in 1 god. Basically you and I reject each and every one of the thousands of gods humans have worshiped and for the same reasons, all except ONE out of thousands.

 

But to make it easy. It is well established that the bible is not an accurate reference for scientific/ mathmatical, historical or moral/ social areas. Any god defintion based on it is bound to be as invalid as it is as a source of knowledge. So to give an answer as stright forward as I can. let me quote Albert Einstein.

I know many scientists including Einstein believe that there is a God who created all things,

"Dear Mr. Raner:

 

I have received your letter of June 10th. I have never talked to a Jesuit priest in my life and am astonished by the audacity to tell such lies about me.

 

From the viewpoint of a Jesuit priest I am, of course, and have always been an atheist. Your counter-arguments seem to me very correct and could hardly be better formulated. It is always misleading to use anthropomorphical concepts in dealing with things outside the human sphere--childish analogies. We have to admire in humility the beautiful harmony of the structure of the world--as far as we can grasp it. And that is all. With best wishes, yours sincerely, Albert Einstein." (letter to Guy H. Raner, Jr., dated July 2, 1945)

 

See? Your problem is you have been LIED TO, and all you know to do is to repeat those LIES.

 

Einstien is a perfect example of how Christianity has always tried to revise history to it's benefit no matter how blatant of a lie needs to be told! As the letter above indicates, Albert was getting very tired of Christians lying about his actual philosophy

[Uncle Martin]

Freethinker,

You never cease to amaze and impress me.

[Freethinker]

Send money, not praise! :-)

[IrishEyes]

Freethinker,

You never cease to amaze and impress me.

 

Oh WOW! You're amazed and impressed and I'm close to nauseated! How is that for a huge gap??? I almost lost my lunch laughing so hard while reading his reply! Thanks for moving it to this thread though, I doubt I'd have seen it otherwise. Too busy this week... Vacation Bible School and all!!

 

GALAXY - WELCOME!!! I hope you will stick around and share your ideas with us. I also hope that you have very thick skin, especially if you are a Christian. As this is a science and technology site, be prepared for a large amount of resistance, especially if you want to discuss God. Most of the people registered at this site hold fast to their belief that God does not exist. There are a few of us that believe in God, as described in the Bible. Some of us even believe that the Bible is word-for-word true. You'll find many variations of "Christianity" as well as "atheism" here. Freethinker will be more thanhappy to enlighten you on the proper terminology, if you ask nicely. I look forward to seeing where this thread leads!

[Freethinker]

Originally posted by: IrishEyes

Oh WOW! You're amazed and impressed and I'm close to nauseated! How is that for a huge gap??? I almost lost my lunch laughing so hard while reading his reply! Thanks for moving it to this thread though, I doubt I'd have seen it otherwise. Too busy this week... Vacation Bible School and all!!

I understand Irish. You can't let up on that brainwashing lest they find a gap in which to think for themselves. I was wondering why we had not had the pleasure of your posts here! I was hoping you'd join in. I am sure that our potential new member (should they come back and post more) would enjoy not being the only one here that can not stand behind their claims. And like you would get to a point in which they would openly admit it. I then wanted to find out if they would then have the intellectual ability to comprehend their inability to stand behind their claimed belief and learn to reject it. Or if they would, as you do, intentionally ignore the complete lack of support for their claims and continue to claim them as real anyway. I always wonder how each Christian will handle it when forced to face the utter lack of intelelctual honest to their belief structure. Perhaps it would make a good future poll.

 

"If you found that you lacked ANY valid support for a personally held belief, would you have the intellectual integrity to change your philosophy? 1) Yes, 2) No"

GALAXY -As this is a science and technology site, be prepared for a large amount of resistance,

You call it "resistance"? Funny, in science and logic we call it FACT FINDING! And yes we do enjoy pursuing a "large amount" of it here!

especially if you want to discuss God.

Yes,"Extraordinary claims required extraordinary evidence." (Carl Sagan) As you say this IS a Science site.

Most of the people registered at this site hold fast to their belief that God does not exist.

Ah, and the survey you have of ALL (or even just "most") of the people on this site is documented where?

 

While there are a number of us that post regularly here that do not have a god belief (again, this IS a SCIENCE site), I am not aware of anything that is available here that would show what the statistics are for "the people registered at this site" relative to their religious beleifs. There are significantly more people registered here than post here.

 

But that is OK Irish, we are used to your concept of what facts and truths are. We understand. We'll keep trying to explain it to you.

There are a few of us that believe in God, as described in the Bible.

Anbd each and every one of you have admitted at one point or other than you have nothing in valid proof, especially as it would be understood at a SCIENCE SITE, to offer to support your claims.

Some of us even believe that the Bible is word-for-word true.

Yet never seem to be able to PROVE it. (See future poll question above)

You'll find many variations of "Christianity"

Yep, each one of you is your own "variation() of "Christianity". You all just make it up as you go based on personal choice of which biblical passages you will ignore.

Freethinker will be more thanhappy to enlighten you on the proper terminology, if you ask nicely.

Awe, Irish, you know my tutoring is always given freely and without the need to ask!

I look forward to seeing where this thread leads!

As do we all!

[IrishEyes]

Stuff a sock in it, FreeT. I'm not into being your target these days.

 

I'm not getting into this pointless argument with YOU again. I believe what i believe, you believe what you believe. Contrary to what you will SCREAM (in all caps) to anyone that will listen, *I* am not the intolerant one in this discussion. If you truly feel the need to pick apart every sentence that I write, split hairs, and call me an idiotic liar (granted, in more subtle terms), do it in the MODERATOR thread. While I may not agree with every thing you post, I will not be as demeaning to you as you attempt to be to me in the public part of this forum, especially as we are supposed to be in charge of this site while Tormod is away.

[Freethinker]

Originally posted by: IrishEyes

Stuff a sock in it, FreeT. I'm not into being your target these days.

Then don't paint targets on your chest! :-)

I'm not getting into this pointless argument with YOU again. I believe what i believe, you believe what you believe.

Well, this is a SCIENCE Site, as has been mentioned numerous times. As such, personal BELIEFS are of little value other than as a curiousity or example of how NOT to understand REALITY.

 

Where we always butt heads is exactly at that point. You express your BELIEFS and don't care that you can't PROVE them. You have specifically stated that you BELIEVE in a god while admitting you have nothing that would serve as valid proof to support that belief. OK, then why get upset when I include your past statements in my posts?

 

If you have issues with what I post because of my FACTS being wrong, PLEASE correct them. I am always anxious to find out where I am wrong and more than willing to change my stance when that happens. I would do no less for anyone here. And I would hope they would have the intellectual curiousity to also appreciate being corrected and the honesty to adapt their world view based on the corrected facts.

Contrary to what you will SCREAM (in all caps) to anyone that will listen, *I* am not the intolerant one in this discussion.

OK, yes I am intolerant. I can not stand by and watch the blatant attacks against logic and science we so often are confronted with here by those trapped in antiquated supersitions. I have, do and will attack any such misinformation and often outright lies (such as the claim that Einstien in any way had Theistic beliefs!).

 

But again, this is a SCIENCE based discussion site. Why would anyone expect anything less?

[IrishEyes]

If you want to refute what is written by others WITH VERIFIABLE FACTS, that's not a problem. However, dragging me into a discussion and holding me up as some sort of example of what you feel is wrong with being a Christian is not acceptable. I've been very careful to not disparage you or your belief system recently, as I feel that we must present a sort of united front, especially in the absence of our esteemed leader. If you feel that my remarks were a personal attack against you, please let me know. I am letting you know that you were rude, and your personal attack was, as usual, uncalled for.

[Freethinker]

Originally posted by: IrishEyes

If you feel that my remarks were a personal attack against you, please let me know. I am letting you know that you were rude, and your personal attack was, as usual, uncalled for.

OK. the above was a personal attack on me. just so you know.... But let's look at the earlier message.

Originally posted by: IrishEyes

Stuff a sock in it, FreeT.

Nope no attack there! Thanks for the words of encouragement.

 

But wait, let's look even further back! Let's check my first post on this thread for my personal attack against Irish that started her defensive reaction... A quick search of my first post shows that I mention Irish right here....

Originally posted by: Freethinker

 

OPS, guess I did not reference Irish in my 1st post, which was followed by Unc's positive response to my post, and then my 2nd post. It must have been there that I struck the first blow against Irish here, let's see...

Originally posted by: Freethinker

Send money, not praise! :-)

OK, seems I had failed at that point to personally attack Irish, or even mention her, so it must have been my next post that *I* started the personal attacks with...

 

Oh, but it seems the NEXT post was Irish's first at this thread. I'm sure, from her scolding ME for having STARTED the attacks, that it would NOT contain any such attacks, and surely not a "first strike"!

Originally posted by: IrishEyes

Oh WOW! You're amazed and impressed and I'm close to nauseated! How is that for a huge gap??? I almost lost my lunch laughing so hard while reading his reply!

 

Her FIRST LINE of her FIRST POST on this thread is the FIRST ATTACK between us. SO if you ahve not figured it out yet Irish,

Originally posted by: IrishEyes

If you feel that my remarks were a personal attack against you, please let me know. I am letting you know that you were rude, and your personal attack was, as usual, uncalled for.

YOU started it .... I was merely replying in kind, AFTER you established the tone for the discussion. If I was RUDE, it was because I was copying YOUR posting style.

 

But then SHE is the Christian, isn't she?

[IrishEyes]

If you want to refute what is written by others WITH VERIFIABLE FACTS, that's not a problem. However, dragging me into a discussion and holding me up as some sort of example of what you feel is wrong with being a Christian is not acceptable. I've been very careful to not disparage you or your belief system recently, as I feel that we must present a sort of united front, especially in the absence of our esteemed leader. If you feel that my remarks were a personal attack against you, please let me know. I am letting you know that you were rude, and your personal attack was, as usual, uncalled for.

[Freethinker]

Er, it seems we CAN travel back thru time. Somehow my reply comes before Irish' post? Oh well, them Tachyons.

[IrishEyes]

I stand by my general mantra :You are a goof!!" *big smile here!*

Seems most of this would have been prevented had I used the "REPLY" button with the option of smileys instead of the 'quick reply', that doesn't have the smiley pull down. I was almost sick from laughing so hard at your very polite tone! I found your reply hysterical, but it caused me great gastro-intestinal distress, as I was in the middle of chicken salad.

no, I ddin't do a "God poll", but that's a great idea. I will check into that possibly this weekend.

If your attack was a direct response to what you considered a personal attack, you should have said so instead of attacking me 'back'. If you had asked, you would have learned that I LOVED your first reply, and was actually quite puzzled why you chose to lay into me with your second. THAT is what I think was uncalled for, but then you've explained that it's due to you assuming the worst from me.

Shame on both of us.

Truce. so the thread can continue without any more of this crap?

[Freethinker]

Originally posted by: IrishEyes

Truce. so the thread can continue without any more of this crap?

 

No promises. Who knows what other things I might have to clear up around here! :-) Oh the wieght of authority! All I had to do around here at first was post. Now I have to pay attention and be nice! Too much STRAIN!

 

OK! two targets on your chest!

[Uncle Martin]

Originally posted by: IrishEyes

I believe what i believe, you believe what you believe.

This is not my argument, but I'm compelled to chime in on this one. Irish, you do "believe". That is your perogative, as foolish as it is in MY OPINION. The difference between beliefs and reasoned logic is HUGE. Freethinker and I have both mentioned in previous posts that we don't "believe" anything. I, and I assume Ft also, weigh the evidence and form conclusions based on the facts. Your insinuating that our thought processes are equal is wrong,....and almost offensive.

 

Well, now it may very well BE my argument.

[Freethinker]

You hit that one out of the park Unc. Belief, esp belief based strictly on Faith, is wrong. We don't "believe" in "refrigerator". We don't HAVE to "believe" in it, we KNOW it exists. (Unless you want to argue that we can't KNOW if anything exists). You "believe" in something when you DON'T KNOW that it exists.

 

I "accept" things as a matter of convenience. e.g. Gravity. Can I PROVE Gravity? No. Can I PROVE that there is not any other explantion that might some how be the more accurate explanation? I mean really, "curved time/sapce"? But if I didn't accept for convenience that something like gravity exists, I would never lift a foot off the ground, just in case I could never put it back down again, float off into space.

 

But I know from many years of experience that I CAN lift my foot up and it will be pulled back down. Most likely it is the gravity thing that is doing it. It fits the description extremely well. It provides a very high degree of predictablity. We can throw hunks of metal millions/ billions of miles and they wind up within walking distance of where we wanted! All because of a THEORY we have we call Gravity.

 

Gravity as an explanation serves my purpose very well. It is very well supported by empircal and controlled lab experiments. I have performed some of those experiments myself in fact. It does not violate any other estblished/ working theories or inderstandings. It offers a high degree of predictability. So I accept it as a matter of convenience.

 

If someone comes along that can provide anywhere near that level of support for something, like angles all pushing down on us, and others can't show reasonable error/ it doesn't violate other things without providing a workable replacement, then I would be happy to reevaluate my decision.

 

Meanwhile, I accept gravity as a matter of convenience.

 

Think I'll walk downstairs and get something to drink! Test out that Gravity theory again!