The Creator

[Freethinker]

Originally posted by: galaxy

Originally posted by: Uncle Martin

Galaxy, can you agree that it is a foregone conclusion that one of these diametrically opposed views must be correct, the other wrong? They can't both be right, can they? .

No, they can't both be right.

Again we notice the Christian approach to replies. Unc SPECIFICALLY included:

Originally posted by: Uncle Martin

So it is really that simple!!! Prove your assertion. Show us that you are right...You have been asked to supply some information, supply it.

And of course you were ready with that PROOF weren't you?

 

NO of course not.

 

You KNOW your claims are completely empty, mindless platitudes, lacking even the first bit of support. You KNOW that you have nothing at all to offer in an intellectually honest and open discussion. But you can not even admit it to yourself, much less the entire internet. So instead you post meaningless ramblings.

I believe that God....

Yada, yada, yada,

so to me I am correct

Then PROVE it. Or stop lying to yourself and everyone else.

The difference between you and I is that I can accept our differences and move on.

NO! "The difference between you and I is that" *I* can prove what I assert. *I* can justify what I say. *I* don't have to keep making excuses for not being able to provide valid support for things. *I* can change my stance when *I* am shown to be incorrect and ADMIT IT.

 

You have consistantly shown that you are not able to do ANY of these things.

If there is a person who never heard about Christ or someone who wants to accept Him and want a testimony, or someone who is seeking I would feel responsible to witness to them.

OK, here's your chance. WITNESS to us with FACTS and REASON. Or ahve the intergraty to admit you do not have any. Have the honesty to admit that your claims are NOT equal to those that can PROVE what they say.

There is nothing I can say to make you believe, and there is nothing you can say to change my views. Your mind is closed, you are already determined to disagree with me regardless of what I say. Even if i did have a formula that revealed God's existance, you would find a way to dispute it. So you might find it "illogical" to believe in God,

Yes, a typical Christian attempt to make excuses for THEIR lack of truthfulness.

 

Is there anything you could "say" that could change MY mind? How many times do I have to post the answer to that before you stop lying about it? Yes, post some FACTS to show me otherwise and I wouold be happy to change my mind.

 

And then you continue with the rest of the Christian LIE. YOU call ME close minded because YOU admit that NOTHING will change YOUR mind.

 

If you had " a formula that revealed God's existance", there is nothing I or anyone else could do to "find a way to dispute it". This is just another LIE to cover up for your complete failure to even begin to justify your antiquated superstition. Another EXCUSE to try and hide your failures.

but like wisdum said, the big bang theory is a little bit ridiculous.

And QM is even more absurd. But so what? Regadless of how little you are able to comprehend about it, it is by far the most accurate theory we have to explain things. Nothing else even comes close. And it offers a very reliable method for predictions. Again, nothing else even comes close.

 

And those of us that accept the BB theory don't have to LIE to cover our claims.

 

I am so happy that I do not have to keep lying to myself and others in order

[Freethinker]

Originally posted by: wisdumn

we have the RIGHT to find happiness as human beings because we have free will.

First, I am not sure that we have "Free Will". That is a whole discussion in itself.

 

2nd, even if we allow "Free Will" for this discussion, there is nothing in "Free Will" that GUARANTEES a "RIGHT to find happiness as human beings".

 

Please show us where this "RIGHT to find happiness as human beings" is GUARANTEED.

hey FT hope you're doing well. i finally supplied as much evidence to "The Creator" as i possibly could on the previous page. it's a little long but if you haven't had a chance to read it please accept my invitation to have a gander.

Yes I read it. I did not see ANY PROOFS. I saw OPINIONS and unsupported claims.

 

I thought I had responded to it, but do not see the reply. Let me start it again.

[wisdumn]

definition) Manifest: clearly apparent to the sight, obvious.

definition taken from dictionary.com

 

i notice that you quote frank lloyd wright at the end of your posts FT. does that mean that nature made it apparent to wright that there was a God? does that mean that nature makes it apparent to you that there is a God? and if nature was how wright learned to build his wonderful architecture then does that mean wright used God's design(nature) to learn to build? i'd call Mr. Wright's learning divine inspiration.

[wisdumn]

opinions and unsupported claims? i'm sorry, i thought i was stating what all the BB had made happen, it did make all of those things happen, right?

[galaxy]

Originally posted by: Tormod

How did Einstein's belief in a Creator shape his world views? I think that is more interesting than hearing endless debates on "I believe this or that anyway" (which, mind you folks, is in violation of our FAQ!). this is after all a Philosophy and Humanities section, and just about everything that has been discussed so far has been discussed at LEAST twice before in different threads. So maybe it's time to pick apart this thread and start a few new ones on different topics? It has strayed too far away from the original post. I'm not wiggling my finger at anyone, so please do not take offense.

 

First of all Tormond I would like to thank you for redirecting this topic. As most of you guys know I am Christian, and I already know some of you are not. I am not here trying to convert anyone, and with that said let's move on. I know for a fact many like to have the last word and this thread will continue for a lifetime...literally. However,I think I made my point clear and I am really not interested in a everlasting argument about who has the correct answer.However, I am very interested in knowing how did Einstein's believe in a creator change his world views.

[galaxy]

Originally posted by: wisdumn

we have the RIGHT to find happiness as human beings because we have free will.

 

Yes! Thank you wisdumn, that is exactly what I've been trying to say.

[wisdumn]

no prob. galaxy. i would like to clear up something though galaxy, while i might have been a little sarcastic in my post about the BB, i did not say the theory of the BB was ridiculous, i stated in my very first post on here that i think evolution might have it's role in the world but i specifically believe that everything must first be imagined and then created. how can i possibly know how God creates things. again, i say if there was a Big Bang, there must have been a Big Banger.

[wisdumn]

once more before i go- the light bulb didn't make itself, the telephone didn't just appear, and Beethoven's first 4 symphonies didn't just Evolve into the fifth symphony. all of these things had imagination and creators behind them.SO- if people want to make up complex theories and formulas to disprove what is very common sense then we'll just wait for the light bulb in your brain to eventually evolve and eventually(hopefully)come on. nowtime for eating and off to the daily grind(i love work-NOT!)

PEACE OUT! -wisdumn

[galaxy]

Originally posted by: wisdumn

how can i possibly know how God creates things. again, i say if there was a Big Bang, there must have been a Big Banger.

 

Read Genesis1

[Freethinker]

Originally posted by: wisdumn

i think we have deferred from is the nature of the topic which is entitled "The Creator" instead i see nothing but pretty much arguing Bible doctrine as of late.

??? So your Creator is NOT based on the bible's fairy tales? Then which Creation myth are you promoting? The earth was regurgitated by a snake? Mud piled on a turtle's back?

now while i do believe the Bible,

OK, let's start here. You want to claim (contrary to your earlier statement!) that it is the biblical creation/ creator you believe in. Thus the first step would be to establish the accuracy of the bible, esp in it's creation myth. If the bible is in error, then it's creation myth/ it's creator would also by in error.

 

Oh where to start? Let's pick two points. One at the beginning, in the creation area.

 

Gen1:16 God made two great lights-the greater light to govern the day and the lesser light to govern the night. He also made the stars.

 

This makes two testable assertions

 

1) the MOON is a SOURCE of light

 

2) the moon and sun are GREATER than the rest of the stars.

 

So after you PROVE these biblical creation claims to be TRUE, let's test the bibles credibility one step further. The first one was OT, let's check out the NT. This should be an easy one for you. The NT is nothing if not about it's "Jesus the Christ". So to show that the bible/ NT has ANY truth to it, all you have to do is validate it's claim about the existence of the biblical Jesus. Simply provide any source of contemporary written eyewitness confirmation of the biblical Jesus.

 

Simple enough. You want to assert that the biblical creation is factual. OK, we are only looking for a few FACTS to validate that.

[Freethinker]

Originally posted by: wisdumn

look at the intelligence that the big bang posessed, it knew how to take a single atom or amoeba and form all of life from it, different colors of flowers

Ah, we are talking about the BB. If you want to talk about particles that is a different discussion. If you want to talke about abiogenesis that is a different discussion. If you want to talk about Evolution, that is a different discussion.

 

You said you offered PROOFS here. There is not a single PROOF in this entire post. All it shows is that you don;t even understand what the BB is all about. What it explains and how. EVERYTHING you list are events that happened AFTER the BB.

but if the big bang is the correct "THEORY", then how could there be a big bang without there being a BIG BANGER?

for the same reason you would outright reject a bigger banger for your big banger. Ockham's Razor. There is no reason to INVENT additional agents. It VIOLATES reason, logic and SCIENCE.

sorry that i asked one question at the very end

Asking questions ia s wonderful thing. It's a great way to learn things. What IS bad is to intentionally choose to ignore factual answers.

-but if you need more evidence than what i have written above,

MORE? We are still waiting for ANY!

 

It seems very obvious at this point that you might not even understand what EVIDENCE is. Unsupported claims, personal opinions and lists of things you don't understand do not count as EVIDENCE.

well sorry but i just don't need to make formulatic equations to figure out common sense like that there must have been a Creator.

OK. you might decide to intentionally believe things even while lacking any FACTS to support it. That is your personal decision. But don't pretend that that is in any way using "common sense". In fact it is quite the opposite.

the universe and how it all operates is PLENTY of evidence for my FEEBLE MIND to handle.

Ah, Einstein shares your view. He said that to believe in a personal god, such as in Christianity, does require being feeble.

 

"I cannot imagine a God who rewards and punishes the objects of his creation, whose purposes are modeled after our own--a God, in short, who is but a reflection of human frailty. Neither can I believe that the individual survives the death of his body, although feeble souls harbor such thoughts through fear or ridiculous egotism." Albert Einstein

[Freethinker]

Originally posted by: wisdumn

once more before i go- the light bulb didn't make itself, the telephone didn't just appear, and Beethoven's first 4 symphonies didn't just Evolve into the fifth symphony. all of these things had imagination and creators behind them.

Everything you just described is identifyable because of it's SIMPLICITY, NOT it's complexity. Each of these things shows UNnature organization. A LACK of randomness. A dramatic increase in recognizable intellectual organization. We identify Beethoven's Fifth NOT because it is random noise, but because it is signifcantly LESS RANDOM, MORE SIMPLIFIED than random noise.

 

We recognize "intellegent intervention" because it COULD NOT happen in NATURE that way. If you were to walk along a beach and saw nothing but sand in random arrangement for miles except in one spot you saw a person's name drawn in the sand, which would you assume was random by nature and which organized by intentional intellectual effort? If we accepted your assertion, we would have to accept that the name is LESS organized than the rest of the beach.

 

In every one of your examples Intellectual intervention is recognized because it is NOT the same as natural occurances.

SO- if people want to make up complex theories and formulas to disprove what is very common sense

OK. QM is definately what you describe. It is basically math formulas and theories to make sense out of the obvious LACK of intellectual organzation of our existence. "Uncertainty" PROVES a lack of intellegent intervention. And yes it does violate what the uneducated would call "common sense".

 

And as a closing note, Beethoven was starting to go deaf just after writing his 1st two symphonies. By his 5th, he had little hearing left and most of it was ringing in his ears. He continued to write, some of his most highly regarded stuff, based on LOGIC AND MATH. As such, YES his 5th WAS an evolutionary process from his earlier first 4 symphonies based on math and reason.

[Freethinker]

Originally posted by: galaxy

Read Genesis1

 

And then read the contradictory Gen 2!

[wisdumn]

galaxy, you said read Gen.1- i have read it a # of times, but i just read it again and it talks about God saying things into place(earth,waters,orbits,etc.) but it says God's spirit moved over the earth. now this is where theology comes in, if God is spirit as Jesus refers to God in the Bible then how does God speak things into existence, "POSSIBLY" by the BB, not necessarily but possibly. it also says in the Bible that a day is like a thousand years to God, so "POSSIBLY" 7 days could be measured as 7 thousand years. i'm not stating any of this as fact but i will say that how God actually creates is beyond my perception. i mean as far as the BB, we as humans set up reproductive organisms in science experiments all the time that reproduce themselves without our making each one ourselves, atoms and cells can reproduce without our help, this is just a hypothesis and i'm not saying creation happened this way. i believe the Bible but i do not always know why or how God makes things happen.

[wisdumn]

FT, i'm still having problems posting quotes like the rest of you so i'll make small posts here as to answer each question individually. my personal idea of The Creator is completely based on the Bible.

the point though was to move back to there just being "A" creator instead of arguing Bible verses the whole time. i did not contradict myself, i was making a generalized point as to there being a creator and if you read that particular post again, i did not use one bit of scripture to support it, i used only the BB the whole time to support the idea of "A" creator. i did not in that post even mention God or the Bible.

[wisdumn]

also FT you keep bringing up the verse about the moon being a source of light. if you had no scientific knowlege of the moon actually reflecting light and you were in a dark forest and look up when the moon was at one of it's peak points of reflection, you would ASSUME it was a source of light,it LOOKS like a light O.K. -quit picking apart verses and since you want admittance of things SO BAD, oh great FT you were right , Bible refers to the moon as a source of light.

[wisdumn]

the library is closing where i use the computer because it's now 10 pm, i'll continue later. good night. i am truly enjoying this discussion and don't worry FT, i have PLENTY of things for you to prove. adios-wisdumn