The Creator

[Freethinker]

Originally posted by: wisdumn

....also, if this is such a science based site as people keep re-itterating, then why do the two words next to forums say.... PHILOSOPHY AND HUMANITIES????? i never new philosophy meant science but thank you all for clueing me in.

 

Ya cute, well just because we enjoy pursueing Philosophy and Humanisties does not mean we give up reason and logic. Critical Thinking is as valuable and valid in P&H as it is in fields hard science. An assertion can be seen as a fallacy whether it is made in physics or family values. We don't have to stop thinking in order to discuss philosophy.

[Freethinker]

Originally posted by: wisdumn

truth inside the heart AND if i must explain again, when i say heart in this context, i am speaking not of a muscle but of the soul, i do not believe this is anything to do with a physical synapse or anything to do with the logic and reasoning of the brain.

You still fail to comprehend the very basis for this site and discussion here.

 

You are making specific assertions,

when i say heart in this context, i am speaking not of a muscle but of the soul

Then PROVE a SOUL exists, or stop pretending it does.

 

You have failed completely to show any reason for this "soul" you keep referring to, to be allowed into the discussion. Until you can show us reason/ facts/ proof to accept this "soul" stop using it as an excuse. We have standards around here.

and i might have put a question mark after that first statement but i was making a feciscious statement but phrasing it as a question. hope i answered you FT,

I don't know why you would "believe" that. I have asked the same very specific question numerous times and you fail to even begin to answer them.

but i believe that my questions are the questions you've been asking your whole life and when you answer those questions, make sure you answer them for yourself before you prove the answer to me.

I HAVE answered them for myself to the best of my ability based on FACTUAL information presented. I am always looking for more FACTUAL information to make sure my stance is the most accurate represenation of reality.

 

As to PROVING anything to you. At this point you have not even begun to show why your assertions should enter into our discussion. Until you can provide support for your assertions, they remain meaningless. We are hoping you can grasp the very basic concept of only providing assertions that you can provide some level of valid support for. To re-re-repost

Originally posted by: Freethinker

So to summarize,

 

1) is "some truth is inside the heart"a metaphore for what is actually physical synapse connections in the brain?

 

2) when you state "heart(or soul)" are you asserting that the term "soul" is just another way of saying "heart"? Or are you claiming the existence of some other object?

If you can't show us any valid explanation for and valid evidence of this soul and how the heart stores data, please acknowledge such. Then we can return the discussion to logical reasoned areas.

Is this simple concept really beyond your abilities? Can you get involved in a reasoned logical discussion that requires valid support for assertions? Or will you keep tossing out mindless theological platitudes as if they had substance?

[wisdumn]

i'm sorry, where in the Bible does it say the moon generates light, ihave seen in the Bible the moon being referred to as the light to guide by night i mean, obviously the moon from earth does look a bit like a night light, but the Bible does not state that the moon is a source of light. and where does it speak anything of Pi? where does it say the earth is flat, and i have seen it say the serpent was made to crawl on it's belly upon the dust of the ground but where does it say the serpent was made to eat dirt? you say the Bible is not a sourcefactual info but i think you're not a very factual source of what the Bible says, better yet, i bet your knowledge of the Bible comes from skimming it over to find holes to further prove your theory. the point of the New Testament alone was to set to right the laws stated in the Old Testament by having Jesus(as proposed by the Bible, and i say this for objectivities sake) as coming from God to share with us what the men in the Old Testament kept making falliable. which of Jesus teachings in the Bible can you argue with?

[wisdumn]

you want proof of things that neither i,you, or anyone else can prove by science. what do you personally believe in that cannot be proven by science?

[wisdumn]

by the way FT, i was reading some of your replies on another thread "meaning of life" something about a sky god and wrath or something like that, i believe that in the Old Testament it speaks of God being wrathful but i can't quite recall that being the attitude in the New Testament. a parent may love their child more than life itself, but when that child does wrong and does not adhere to simple admonishment such as "don't do that" then the parent is forced to reside to some type of punishment for the child but it isn't like the parent enjoys punishing the child, they do it because they love the child and because they love the child they will correct the childmuch in the same way God corrects his children. i think you should know at this point that i do not go to any church nor do i align myself with so called christians.

i do believe what the Bible teaches starting with the New Testament, i believe the Old Testament is there to show how things were before the time of Jesus. i do believe that Jesus did come to earth from God to share with us what kind of life God wants us to lead and that Jesus is the perfect candidate to teach us correctly what God wants. may i suggest to you as in my first post at this site to effectively read(open minded) the four gospels, Matthew, Mark,Luke,John- but not only read, but study them, and actually humble yourself to ask Jesus to show you in your soul what God wants for you, better yet instead of suggestion, i dare you to ask Jesus when you're all alone, "hey Jesus, if you're the real deal, then show me in my life what i need to be shown." i believe if you ask that question with complete sincerity in wanting to hear from Jesus that He will come and communicate with you things that are beyond your perception. i used to believe other things to, i always needed facts as well, but God taught me of things that no man or man's facts can.

[wisdumn]

....so sorry that i included this on your science site, but this is the only place i am aware of to speak to you.

[wisdumn]

i have to go now, talk to you soon FT and have a good day, thanks for the discussion. -wisdumn

[Freethinker]

Originally posted by: wisdumn

i'm sorry, where in the Bible does it say the moon generates light,

Yes, I am sorry that you are not aware of this, either. Just another typical Christian. Now I have to educate you on what the bible ACTUALLY says. Of course one of the problems with this discusion is that the bible is intentionally vague to allow what ever interpretation anyone wants to make and each will claim it is THE correct one! This is well proven by all the different interpretations and versions available. Add to this the FACT that there is not a single "original text" available for reference.

i have seen in the Bible the moon being referred to as the light to guide by night i mean, obviously the moon from earth does look a bit like a night light, but the Bible does not state that the moon is a source of light.

And here we see the beginning of making excuses for what the bible ACTUALLY says by claiming it says something OTHER than what it ACTUALLY says. I undertstand why you WISH it did not say WHAT IT DOES. But don't lie about it to save face!

 

Here are SEVEN DIFFERENT translations. Not a SINGLE ONE even suggests anything less than a SOURCE of light to RULE the night. Not a single gets even close to minimizing the light from the moon as anything less than a full SOURCE of light, just like the SUN and other STARS! And I am sure it will be useless to ask you to actually supply a verifyable reference for your claim that it states that the moon is ONLY a "guide". Just another question for you to ignore.

 

Meanwhile, what the bible ACTUALLY say!

 

Genesis 1:16 God made two great lights-the greater light to govern the day and the lesser light to govern the night. He also made the stars.(NIV)

Genesis 1:16 God made the two great lights, the (1) greater light to govern the day, and the lesser light to govern the night; He made (2) the stars also. (NASB)

Genesis 1:16God made two big lights, the larger to take charge of Day, The smaller to be in charge of Night; and he made the stars.(MSG)

Genesis 1:16And God made the two great lights--the greater light (the sun) to rule the day and the lesser light (the moon) to rule the night. He also made the stars.(AMP)

Genesis 1:16 And God made the two great lights, the great light to rule the day, and the small light to rule the night, -- and the stars.(DARBY)

Genesis 1:16Then God made two great lights: the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night. He made the stars also.(NKJV)

Genesis 1:16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.(KJV)

 

We can only guess that your efforts to STUDY the bible did not include getting as far as the 16th verse in it!

 

Now I am sure you will have some other badly constructed excuse to try to pretend the bible does not say what it ACTUALLY does. But it will be fun to see how you try.

 

and where does it speak anything of Pi? where does it say the earth is flat,

Ya ya ya,.... here we go again. I get to give another Christian a bible class. Who's counting out there?

 

C=D*pi

 

1 Kings 7:23

And he made a molten sea, ten cubits from the one brim to the other: it was round all about, and his height was five cubits: and a line of thirty cubits did compass it round about.

 

2 Chronicles 4:2

Also he made a molten sea of ten cubits from brim to brim, round in compass, and five cubits the height thereof; and a line of thirty cubits did compass it round about.

 

Thus the bible states

 

C= thirty cubits did compass it round about

 

D= ten cubits from the one brim to the other

 

30=10*pi

 

3.0=pi

[Freethinker]

Originally posted by: wisdumn

which of Jesus teachings in the Bible can you argue with?

Well first off, you have yet to PROVE that the bible is correct in even claiming this Jesus existed. Until you start actually supplying proof for your claims, your claims will continue to be meaningless ramblings.

 

While so far I have PROVED that YOU do not know what is on the bible. You were WRONG about the Moon being a SOURCE of light, it claiming the earth to be flat and being wrong about pi.

 

When YOU can PROVE that the biblical Jesus actually existed, then we can discuss what he might have said. And please don't waste our time or embarrass yourself by trying to use the bible to prove itself. Circular logic doesn't cut it around here. Use VALID VERIFYABLE OUTSIDE CONTEMPORARY eyewitness reports. This is a SCIENCE site.

[Freethinker]

Originally posted by: wisdumn

you want proof of things that neither i,you, or anyone else can prove by science. what do you personally believe in that cannot be proven by science?

 

wisdumn. try ANSWERING questions before you start ASKING more and more of them.

 

Or have the honesty to admit you were wrong or don't know.

 

Then I will be happy to answer more question.

[Freethinker]

Originally posted by: wisdumn

by the way FT, i was reading some of your replies on another thread "meaning of life" something about a sky god and wrath or something like that, i believe that in the Old Testament it speaks of God being wrathful but i can't quite recall that being the attitude in the New Testament.

I suggest that you " read(open minded)" the bible, which you obviously have NOT done! You as a typical Christian have only paid attention to the parts you personally agree with and ignore the greater balance of it.

a parent may love their child more than life itself,

Luke 14:26 "If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters--yes, even his own life--he cannot be my disciple.

i think you should know at this point that i do not go to any church nor do i align myself with so called christians.

Of course not! Every Christian I have ever met is the ONLY Christian there is! Each one wants to claim that THEY are eclusively the one that has this god/ bible thing figured out!

 

Christians always want to claim that they are THE major religious grouping, but each reject the way every other one of them follows it.

 

What a joke!

 

"Christianity, an ARMY OF ONE!" LOL!

i do believe what the Bible teaches starting with the New Testament,

Ops so much for all the "Jesus fills the OT prophecy" crap eh?

 

And so much for the Ten Commandments! Guess you are for making sure they are not in Public spaces! You sure wouldn't want to sound inconsistant would you?

i believe the Old Testament is there to show how things were before the time of Jesus.

Matthew 5:17-19 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

 

So by promoting that the OT (the LAW) is no longer valid you have just cost yourself eternal salvation! Nice going!

i do believe that Jesus did come to earth

We really don't care what you BELIEVE, but what you can PROVE. So far that has been ZERO!

I always needed facts as well, but God taught me of things that no man or man's facts can.

 

It's called DELUSIONS. FACTS are what keep people from having MORE of them. It is a shame that you have decided to INTENTIONALLY REJECT FACTS. But you are a Christian so it is no suprise. You don't have any choice but to ignore facts.

 

But then the question once more becomes, why are you pretending to be interested in FACTS by coming to a SCIENCE site?

[sage]

hi galaxy me too am a newbie here...... let us be the cool guys in this group of nerds........ glad u chose philosophy to start of ....a good subject to think on , a lot to talk on and can be a great pastime ...... philosophy wasnt just made by great thinkers but also by guys like us but got to go buy

[IrishEyes]

Sage - WELCOME!!

 

I'm not a guy, and I'm not a nerd. Trust me when I say that you should not introduce yourself in a forum by name-calling (right Tormod?) There are very few 'nerds' in this forum, but I doubt many of them would even want to be referred to as 'cool guys' . We look forward to hearing from you and learning more about what your personal philosophies are.

[Freethinker]

Welcome Sage, glad we finally have a "cool guy" here! Give us "nerds" someone to look up to!

[Freethinker]

Hey Irish, bout time we saw you around here! You've been atypically silent! :-)

[IrishEyes]

Think it's a bogus thread, and I've been through the 'discussion' before. Not interested in re-hashing this one, especially when yours is the loudest voice. ;>P

 

Would be VERY interested in hearing some new voices, as long as they are not into bashing, flaming, or trying to convert the masses without knowing their Bible though. I know, I know, very few know the Bible as well as you do, but I think I am one of the few and it just saddens me to see how many out there don't even take the time to read it before spouting how *everyone* should live by its tenets.

 

I DO know what you mean by blind faith. I just wish you would also acknowledge that not everyone is a blind follower. I DO believe in the Bible, and God, and Jesus, but I didn't just blindly accept things any more than you blindly rejected them. After studying the evidences available, I think that God is the only realistic conclusion for the existence of this earth, and man. I just can not accept that we evolved, not because I don't want to, but because there are just too many unexplainables with that conclusion. We've been through it before, and I've read your links and your 'proofs', but they just don't ring true for me, either in my heart or my brain. I know you think that only weak, stupid, or very foolish people would choose to believe in God, but I disagree. As for any proof, we both know that there is nothing that you would conside proof of God, any more than I consider there is any true proof of evolution.

 

Sorry i've been MIA lately. Life has been full, and I've been enjoying it, for the most part. i have been checking in on a fairly regular basis to make sure ou guys are all playing nice together, but haven't had much time or inclination to post any thought-out replies to anything. Besides, none of the current topics seem all that interesting or fresh, and I've had a block as far as coming up with new ones. I'll try to change that this weekend though.

[Freethinker]

Originally posted by: IrishEyes

Think it's a bogus thread, and I've been through the 'discussion' before. Not interested in re-hashing this one, especially when yours is the loudest voice. ;>P

Truth has that tendency, yes.

Would be VERY interested in hearing some new voices,

New voices would be nice yes. We've had some. So while new "voices" would be nice, some new IDEAS would be nicer. What we get is just another Christian parrotting the same stuff over and over as if it is something new.

I know, I know, very few know the Bible as well as you do, but I think I am one of the few

Though I did have to educate you on many of the FACTS surrounding the bible and you ahve yet to resolve many of the errors and contradictions I have shown. I mean other than convincing YOURSELF (privately) that the errors didn't exist as far as you could see.

and it just saddens me to see how many out there don't even take the time to read it before spouting how *everyone* should live by its tenets.

Me too! Few would spout such nonsense if they actually read what the book promotes! The best way to increase the number of Atheists is to get people to read the bible with an open mind!

I DO know what you mean by blind faith. I just wish you would also acknowledge that not everyone is a blind follower. I DO believe in the Bible, and God, and Jesus, but I didn't just blindly accept things any more than you blindly rejected them.

The BIG difference that remains is every time YOU are asked to PROVE your stance, we hear

As for any proof, we both know that there is nothing that you would conside proof of God,

an excuse for not even presenting things for evaluation. Such as the absolute mathimatical proof you had claimed some time ago. The closest we came to actually seeing this incredible proof was being told that only your husband could understand it and he was too busy to show the entire world that the factual proof of god existed.

 

While EVERYTIME I am asked to supply proof for my assertions, I supply them.

 

You may decide to ignore the massive scientific evidence, such as for Evolution, but it is NOT that it does not exist, like is the case for god claims.

 

BIG difference between REJECTING factual information that is supplied and not having any to supply.

After studying the evidences available, I think that God is the only realistic conclusion for the existence of this earth, and man.

And of you find a single one that is substantial enough that you are not afriad to post it here, we would all love to share it with you.

I just can not accept that we evolved, not because I don't want to, but because there are just too many unexplainables with that conclusion.

And of you find a single one that is substantial enough that you are not afriad to post it here, we would all love to share it with you.

We've been through it before, and I've read your links and your 'proofs', but they just don't ring true for me, either in my heart or my brain.

Yes, we know that the entire peer reviewed, field specific scientists are lying about Evolution, Gravity, Light and every other scientific endevor just so the masses will stop believeing in god. Can;t trust them scientists. That is why Medical Science, which is based EXCLUSIVELY on Evolution as FACT, is so harmful to society!

As for any proof, we both know that there is nothing that you would conside proof of God,

Not even close to correct. It would only be correct if you said "As for any proof, we both know that there is nothing that you have ever been shown that wo