The Creator

[Freethinker]

Originally posted by: IrishEyes

Man, it's good to be back!!!

 

I love you too! lol!

[Freethinker]

Originally posted by: IrishEyes

Come on guy, try harder...

Saving it for SERIOUS competition!

[IrishEyes]

Yes, saving lives is of little concern when their soul is at risk! That has been the stance from the beginning. WHich ever was the latest was the devil, while the things your grandparents fought against are wonderful now! And things we are able to force thru the religious intollerance and ignorance will be welcomed later as a "miracle from god"! Happens each and every time! You people never learn!

 

Shame on you, FreeT. You should know me better than that!

 

I'm not that into vaccines, but that's another story. It has nothing to do with religion and much to do with how relatively short a time they've been used compared to the possible risks involved in injecting them into my children.

 

The advances i was referring to have more to do with 'advances' that can keep a body alive long after th person is dead. I've watched families in serious pain as they had to pull a plug on the life of a loved one, while someone screams that the person is still "ALIVE". While I appreciate the amazing things that have happened in the medical field, I think that many times there is something to be said in letting people die with dignity.

 

Also, as I work very closely with women during labor and delivery, I also see many of the 'advances' in that field. Thank goodness there is a resurgence of women willing to do things the more natural way, instead of going the easy route. I think it's disgusting to be able to get a c-section on demand for convenience, and virtually any type of drug imaginable for 'pain management' during labor, regardless of the known effects those drugs have ont he baby. It just makes me sick!

 

As for the rest of your reply, not sure where you were going with that, but think we got our wires crossed.

[IrishEyes]

Ok, I'm going to back off for a bit and take the kids to King's Dominion, and give some others a chance to jump in here now...

I'll check back this weekend...

See you on Monday, FreeT!

[Uncle Martin]

Originally posted by: Uncle Martin

Originally posted by: galaxy

Greetings everybody. I am new to this site and ......Well I was just wondering what your opinions were on God..........I was just wondering if there is any scientific fact that makes it certain that there is God.....I really found many intelligent comments here, so I was just wondering your opinions regarding this subject.

 

This is a group of excerps from the first post in this thread. Galaxy, and later wisdumn and rls I believe, were interested in the scientific reasoning of this subject. Well.....? You have it!!!! Freethinker has told all of us how a "scientific mind" views this nonsense. I, and many others agree with his statements.

 

So where is your rebuttal? Your proof that you are correct? The burden of proof is up to you. Nobody can prove a negative. I can't prove god doesn't exist anymore than you can prove that Santa Claus isn't real. PROVE That your god, and soul are real!!! I challenge you to think like the scientists that you wish you were. You will quickly learn that your worldview needs some major corrections. THINK DAMNIT . No faith is necessary, all you need is reason and logic. You have been mislead, and the very fact that you are all here to discuss this tells me that you are either hoping to recruit us or learn what the REAL truth is.SHOW ME YOUR EVIDENCE OR ADMIT THAT YOU HAVE BEEN MISLEAD!!!

Ok,...back to the topic. I want to hear from all of our new members regarding "the creator". You have expressed an interest in the scientific way of seeing this,... I think we have supplied that for you. NOW it is your turn. Using reason and logic,... please explain how you can cling to this antiquated superstition. Do you not understand anything about power? That is all that your religion,...all religions were developed for. Power and control by the educated few of the era over the simple and uneducated masses. Most religions use fear as a motivating tool, ever notice that eternal damnation is a common trait of many religions? Fear is a powerful motivator. It served an important function in our advancing societies, but surely you have to admit that it has long outlived its usefullness. Anarchy and chaos are no longer kept in check by organized religion, government has that under control. The masses are more educated and informed than at anytime in history. How is it possible for you to maintain that a superstition with ZERO probability of existing is real?

 

I am willing to consider any objective evidence presented to support your assertions. I would ask that you treat my proposals with the same respect, and at least consider if my statements have any possible validity. I will be more than happy to answer any thoughtful questions.

[Freethinker]

I'm proud of you Irish, You really are trying here. Good effort. But let's look closer.

Originally posted by: IrishEyes

1) What makes you think I am singleing out one person? Kind of presumptive to assUme such!

Hmmm... well, you said...

 

What we get is just another Christian parrotting the same stuff over and over as if it is something new.

 

The "what WE get" indicates that you were grouping a lot of us together as a separate entity from another person or group.

 

Then you continue with "is", which indicates singularity, not plurality. Of course, you may have just not used the correct English tense of the verb, who knows...

 

But then you follow with "just another Christian" ... again, in the singular. Do you need for me to explain he difference between singular and plural to you? Or should I just buy you a grammar book?

 

The first seven words of your statement clearly indicate a single person. And as you also had been previously directing the majority of your fire at one particular indivudual, I made one of YOUR typical astounding leaps of logic. Was I wrong? If so, very happy to apologize. But I don't think I was in the case.

 

OK, yes in the beginning I was constructing a model of a future new voice based on a composite of a specific sectarian group. You were correct with

you were grouping a lot of us together as a separate entity

.

 

But you miss the change in reference in the 2nd part. Remember, what I was establishing was a trend in which a particuar type of person, based on an established specific religious group, Christians tend to come here and "What we get is just another Christian parrotting the same stuff over and over as if it is something new." YES this IS is singular. It is singular in reference to this future new voice we are promoting. It is NOT in reference to the earlier established grouping.

 

Or should I just buy you a grammar book?

[Freethinker]

Originally posted by: IrishEyes

Shame on you, FreeT. You should know me better than that!

 

I'm not that into vaccines, but that's another story. It has nothing to do with religion and much to do with how relatively short a time they've been used compared to the possible risks involved in injecting them into my children.

The vaccines I was referring to was the ones that were to stop the PLAGUE and how church authorities tried to stop it because it interferred with god's plans.

The advances i was referring to have more to do with 'advances' that can keep a body alive long after th person is dead... I think that many times there is something to be said in letting people die with dignity.

I am somewhat suprised. Death with Dignity is not typically a stance taken by people that profess your theological tenets. I have been a member of Death With Dignity for some time. I had a personal experience with my mother a few years ago and they were of tremendeous help. They helped me understand how to talk to her Dr and find a hospice.

Also, as I work very closely with women during labor and delivery,..I think it's disgusting to be able to get a c-section on demand for convenience, and virtually any type of drug imaginable for 'pain management' during labor, regardless of the known effects those drugs have ont he baby. It just makes me sick!

Well I can only claim 2nd hand experience in this. But I was the one that got "us" to use unmedicated child birth for all 4 kids. In order to put it in persepctive, you are talking about how hard it is to keep a "natural childbirth" in place today as it is fought by the general medical INDUSTRY. Imagine Nashville, Tn. in 1978. We find a Dr that agrees with the "natural childbirth" process and promises to not push drugs on her during her "time of weakness". Well he's going on vaction right around her due date. So we arrange to meet with his Partner. He agrees no medication and me in the delivery room. No simple agreement to reach at that time! They were NOT "birthing rooms" we had for some later children in the north.

 

Then we show up at the hospital and it is some guy we have never seen and he thinks the whole thing is nonsense and I should go to the waiting room and he'll tell me what he pulls out shortly! Almost nailed him with a right hook. I had to push my way back in to the room after the "prep". It was a real experience!

[IrishEyes]

I am somewhat suprised. Death with Dignity is not typically a stance taken by people that profess your theological tenets.

 

I think this line perfectly exemplifies the point I have been trying to get you to see for months.

 

While it is very easy to group people together based on race, ethnicity, socio-economic station, or education levels, it is generally frowned on as a way to distinguish people. Most people would agree that it is not a very nice thing to do. I could be mistaken, but i believe that is also YOUR general feeling on the subject. However, when it comes to labeling people on the basis of religion, and making blanket statements for an individual based solely on their religion, you seem to have no problem with that.

 

You have been a member of this forum for a whopping 3 days longer than I have. Now I realize that you have posted much more than I have, but all that proves is that you like to hear your own voice (or in this case - read your own words!) ;-) In all the time that we've been members, we've been on very different sides of many arguments, and on the same side in a few. I can generally figure out how you will reply, based on what you have said int he past. Not based solely on your religious preference, or lack thereof, but on you as an individual. You know, or should by our many interactions, that I am not what you would consider a *typical* Christian. Yet you still seem amazed when I do not fall in line with what you consider should be the typical Christian response.

 

I am not familiar with Death With Dignity, but it sounds like an organization that I would fully support. I have a Living will, and I think that everyone should be able to choose whether to 'live' or to die, without having to place the burden of that decision on family members. What most other people in my religion feel or think really has very little bearing on my decision on this subject. However, I know that most of the people that attend our church feel the same way that I do, as we just had a woman die Thursday morning after her family made the decision to stop 'life-support'.

 

Your birth experience, while disgusting and sad, is not at all uncommon, even in this day and age. There are many doctors that still feel husbands should be elsewhere, women should have epidurals as soon as they get out of their car in the parking lot, and the babies should stay in the hospital at least 3 days after delivery - depending on insurance, of course! However, i also know that in the very unlikely event that a birth does not go as 'planned', medical technology is amazing. So the catch-22 remains. While i fully support a woman in her quest for a more natural birthing experience, i would be very reluctant to help a mother birth at home, without the aid of a medical professional. I think, left alone (meaning without medical intervention of any type), most women will naturally find the position and pattern that is perfect for them. Their babies will be born more alert, and without any side efects of 'pain medication'. However, there is always the chance that something may go wrong, and every baby deserves every chance it can get!

 

Anyhow, we should probably start a new topic to continue with THIS discussion, as UNC already stuck his head in the door and reminded us to get back on topic. Galaxy's original seemed to me to be more of a 'gut feeling' thing than a "prove God exists' thing, so I'm not even sure most of this is very relevant to the topic.

 

Anybody else have any ideas?????

[galaxy]

Welcome sage. You got a good sense of humor. You are right, I know I am not Miss Einstein, but I have an inquisitive mind and a lot of creativity. I believe we are all gifted differently in different areas, and those who feel superior because they are more "scientifically" inclined, then they have a problem, not me. I don't feel inferior or superior to anybody. This is me, and I am here for a reason. &I am glad you are also here

[Uncle Martin]

Irish,

By Galaxy; "I was just wondering if there is any scientific fact that makes it certain that there is a God".

How do you equate the above statement to a "gut feeling thing"?

 

 

 

Galaxy, is your user icon one of your own creations as an artist? I like it!

[IrishEyes]

Irish,

 

quote:

By Galaxy; "I was just wondering if there is any scientific fact that makes it certain that there is a God".

 

 

How do you equate the above statement to a "gut feeling thing"?

 

Unc, taken as only that statement, I wouldn't equate it to a 'gut feeling thing'.

 

However, taken as a whole it reads (italics are mine)...

 

Well I was just wondering what your opinions were on God. I know many scientists including Einstein believe that there is a God who created all things, however others deny this possibility. I know each individual might have a different personal opinion as far as their religious believes, but I was just wondering if there is any scientific fact that makes it certain that there is God. Also you guys mentioned dimensions ... after life in the physical, can it be possible that our spirit travel to another none physical dimension and live there? I am sorry if my questions sound too spiritual, as I mentioned before I am a very inquisitive person, and I really found many intelligent comments here, so I was just wondering your opinions regarding this subject.

 

I thought it was fairly evident that Galaxy was looking more for personal feelings, rather than cold hard facts. If I'm wrong, please feel free to correct me, Galaxy. But I was under the impression that Galaxy was looking more for what people felt and believed, rather than what could be proven scientifically.

 

Of course, I guess it's up to how the person reads that paragraph, as Unc and I both read the same thing and Unc seemed to key on "scientific fact" but i keyed on "personal opinion".

 

Can you clear this one up for us, Galaxy? Were you looking for undisputable proof that God is not real? Or were you looking for the personal feelings of the people in this forum regarding their own beliefs, or lack thereof, in God?

[Uncle Martin]

Originally posted by: IrishEyes

I thought it was fairly evident that Galaxy was looking more for personal feelings, rather than cold hard facts.

By Galaxy,

"...posted the topic the Creator expecting to have an intelligent discussion about scientists and their opinions regarding the existence of God....

 

....The reason I provided the list is because that is what this topic was intended to be about, scientists and their believes in a higher power."

 

I know you've been busy Irish, but please check your facts before assuming to be up to date. Of course, I expect Galaxy to side with you on this, even in light of the above proof. It is afterall, the christian way.

[Freethinker]

Originally posted by: galaxy

...I have an inquisitive mind and a lot of creativity. I believe we are all gifted differently in different areas, and those who feel superior because they are more "scientifically" inclined, then they have a problem, not me. I don't feel inferior or superior to anybody. This is me, and I am here for a reason. &I am glad you are also here

"I have an inquisitive mind and a lot of creativity. I believe we are all gifted differently in different areas" and "I don't feel inferior or superior to anybody." are contradictory. First you state that everyone IS "gifted" (superior) in different areas. Then you claim the opposite.

 

If you should decide to align yourself with your first comment ("I believe we are all gifted differently in different areas"), perhaps you could appreciate input from those that may be "gifted" in the application of logic, reason and scientific knowledge rather than denegrade their attempts to assist you in an area you admit to not being as gifted in?

 

I know that is why I am here. I hope to learn more about various areas of science of interest and sharpen my Critical Thinking skills. Along with the enjoyment of intellectual discourse with like minded individuals. If I was interested in sharpening my skills on pastel techniques or protecting biblical inerrancy, I would find sites with those orientations.

[IrishEyes]

Unc, you pulled a statement from the opening post and presented it like this was originally a thread about scientifically proving or disproving God. I posted the majority of the initial post in an attempt to show how the single post that you presented actually fit into the rest of that original post.

 

Being busy has little to do with showing how you tried to intentionally mislead people by only posting a single sentence from that post that 'proved' your point. As for Galaxy 'siding' with me, or it being the "Christian way'... come on, Unc. Now you sound like a cheap imitation of FreeT.

[Freethinker]

Originally posted by: IrishEyes

Unc. Now you sound like a cheap imitation of FreeT.

 

Ya, I expect royalties! Can't let no CHEAP imitators take my action!

[galaxy]

I am the only one who can clarify what I intended when I posted this message. Yes, I did want to view the scientific view regarding the creator, but like Irish eyes said, it was more how they felt personally. I never expected a formula that revealed or denied the existence of God, but rather a sincere humble response that perhaps not everything can be explained by man ... that EVERYTHING in earth and beyond is so wonderfully made that it makes it impossible to deny the existence of a creator. Of course I did not expect everyone to believe, but I definitely did not expect such argumentative responses. WOW... I mean, come on now, every one is entitled to an opinion, let's try to be a bit more open minded. I mean I cannot change the way you feel about God, and I am not here trying to...and obviously no matter how hard many of you try I will continue to believe in Christ. Do I believe this makes me a better person, no, it doesn't. I am a human being and I am far away from perfect. What my believe in Christ provides me with is hope. And no, I do not consider it "blind faith." I personally think that it is more illusive to think that the universe, the earth and everything in it just... Happened. Then again that is just my own personal opinion.

[galaxy]

Oh Freethinker, freethinker, freethinker... Why do you call yourself freethinker?

To me you seem like a person trapped in your own believes, unable to accept anyone who does not share your views into your world. I am a Christian and you are an atheist. Have I ever insulted you or made you feel uncomfortable in any way because we think differently? No, I haven't. You, on the other hand attack and step on everyone who doesn't share your views. Don't you think that we should respect and accept each other as human beings regardless of our religious or cultural, or whatever differences? Can you agree with me on that? You know what I find funny...or hypocritical, is the passion you have to defend your political views. You claim to be against the republicans and their ideals ... and yet you use every opportunity you get to kick Christians out of your "SCIENCE SITE"...

 

Now, "Gifted" according to the Meriam Webster Dictionary

 

Pronunciation: 'gif-t&d

Function: adjective

1 : having great natural ability : TALENTED <gifted children>

2 : revealing a special gift <gifted voices>

- gift·ed·ly adverb

- gift·ed·ness noun

 

Everyone is gifted differently in different areas. A person can be gifted working the land in agriculture, then you have someone else who is more scientifically inclined, gifted in physics... They are gifted differently, yet in my eyes no one is not better than the other. I guess you see things differently. To me, we need balance to survive, get it freethinker... BALANCE.

 

In case you are still confused, I will make it a little simpler by using a personal example. Many years I worked with handicapped children wile attending school. It was the most rewarding job I ever had. I worker with children who were autistic, who had Rett Syndrome , who had cerebral palsy. Each of this special children had their own gift, or talent. Little 10 year old Gina who was autistic wanted to be a ballerina. She would get on her toes and dance around the house at the sound of music ... she would spin, and jump on her little toes. I took ballet as a child for a couple of years and I was never able to do what this child did without any training. Then there was 12 year old Jeremy, even do he never spoke, he just knew when someone was having a bad day or just needed a hug, and there he was to share one. He could brighten with a smile the darkest day, he had the gift of love. Then there was little Aaron. He was 16, although physically he seemed much younger. He had CP. and was a Quadriplegic. He was also unable to communicate himself orally. This child had the gift of joy... I never ever meet anyone in any of the countries or states that I visited someone happier than little Aaron. He would laugh all day and all night, yes, even wile he slept. He had such contagious joy. Then there was little Jacky who was blind and autistic and who loved music... He was unable to walk, so he would crawl with the radio in his hand ... he loved music with beats. He would change the stations and when he found something he liked he would do a spin on the floor and it was just magical ... we called him the 80's kid, since he loved break dancing and always hanged around his small radio. These children were all gifted. Although you say a lot Mr. Freethinker, and I do not doubt that you are an intelligent man, I learned more from those children than what I would ever learn from you. I do not want to sound insulting, but you have been "voicing your opinion" and I think it's time I should. I cannot be "enlighten by logic" trough someone who sounds as arrogant as you do. I cannot see how someone who is constantly be littleing people in order to make his voice heard could be truly happy about himself. Perhaps you need assistance from someone like Aaron to share his gift of joy with you and help you become a less angry person.