The Creator

[Uncle Martin]

Originally posted by: IrishEyes

Unc, you pulled a statement from the opening post and presented it like this was originally a thread about scientifically proving or disproving God.

I posted a quote as written. Your misinterpretation is your problem. I could post all that was posted,....but wait,...that would be redundant for the people that ACTUALLY read a thread before posting. Now wouldn't it?

Being busy has little to do with showing how you tried to intentionally mislead people by only posting a single sentence from that post that 'proved' your point.

I was not trying to mislead anyone. And I AM VERY OFFENDED that you would accuse me of such a thing. I quoted galaxy, I did not in any way change the content nor meaning. Again, I assume that people are actually reading more than just the last post of a thread. Apparently I'm wrong on this.

As for Galaxy 'siding' with me, or it being the "Christian way'... come on, Unc. Now you sound like a cheap imitation of FreeT.

Although FT and I have much in common, I am not a CHEAP anything. I am a completely original,.. work in progress. The very fact that you have resorted to name calling tells me that I'm headed in the right direction.

 

I would like to add that this "discussion" has devolved into an argument about what the topic is, and the author has spoken. I am done with this foolishness for now, I may return if someone has something intelligent to say.

[Freethinker]

Originally posted by: galaxy

Yes, I did want to view the scientific view regarding the creator, but like Irish eyes said, it was more how they felt personally. I never expected a formula that revealed or denied the existence of God, but rather a sincere humble response that perhaps not everything can be explained by man ...

So you came here to explore with a "scientific view" from people "how they felt personally" expecting it to be "a sincere humble response that perhaps not everything can be explained by man".

 

And you probably have no idea how much you contradicted yourself in that one statement. Here's just a couple of the more obvious.

 

1) if it is a "scientific view", then "how they felt personally" is meaningless. If it is to pass scientific muster, it has to be supported with valid proofs. Not personal opinions.

 

2) if it is a "scientific view", then it CAN "be explained by man".

 

And that was exactly where Unc and I have been trying to get the discussion moved to. Away from touchy feely personal opinions, to examination of facts we have available.

that EVERYTHING in earth and beyond is so wonderfully made that it makes it impossible to deny the existence of a creator.

such as the earthquakes and tornados that slaughter millions? The draughts that slaughter millions more? Oh thank you kind god! Or the utterly hostile conditions of 99.99999...% of the universe? The extremely fragile balance everything hangs in? Space debris just waiting to blow the earth up? Anyone familiar with any form of engineering would easily identify any number of significant design flaws. If the universe was created by an entity, it had to be a complete idiot!

Of course I did not expect everyone to believe, but I definitely did not expect such argumentative responses.

What you got were QUESTIONS. You make claims, we want PROOF. You offer none! That is rude. You intentionally came to a science based web site, which posts in it's basic FAQ the specific statement for proofs to be presented for claims. You ignore this as wwell as ignore individual requests later, and your surprised?

 

Take a simple elmentary school science test and reply with "well my personal opinion is we just can't know that!" and see how nice of a grade you get.

WOW... I mean, come on now, every one is entitled to an opinion,

OK, but if you can't provide valid support for it, why post it on a science site? What did you expect? Hallaluya's from the choir?

let's try to be a bit more open minded. I mean I cannot change the way you feel about God, and I am not here trying to...and obviously no matter how hard many of you try I will continue to believe in Christ.

SEE? You are just another one of the blind sheep. You admit in front that you have no desire what so ever to openly and intellectually honestly discuss things. You think there is some value to coming here and posting religious mumbo jumbo as if it means soemthing and won;t be open enough to even honestly evaluate it with us.

 

Then you want to WE are not open minded?

What my believe in Christ provides me with is hope

That stopped cutting it as an excuse after you turned 8 years old. Invisible play friends do not offer HOPE to anyone. It offers lies and decite. It conditions the mind to allow acceptance of all sorts of other rediculous nonsense. People are dying all over the world because of these incorrect thought processes. The ONLY hope we have is to shed absurd antiquated superstitions and embrace science and reason in our lives.

And no, I do not consider it "blind faith."

And once again we see why personal beliefs are so useless. It does not m

[Freethinker]

Originally posted by: galaxy

Oh Freethinker, freethinker, freethinker... Why do you call yourself freethinker?

To me you seem like a person trapped in your own believes,

Ah yes, they love to start this way.

 

We had just been told by you that you would not accept anything that requires you to change your "belief"

Originally posted by: galaxy

no matter how hard many of you try I will continue to believe in Christ.

Some how in your twisted view of logic, that means *I* am "trapped in (my) own believes"!

 

I have stated many times, and have proven by example, that when something I have accepted as true is shown to be false, I will appologize for my error, change my stance and thank the person for educating me.

 

So what is the best defense? A good offense. You attack ME and claim *I* have YOUR problem!

 

Nice try! No luck!

 

I am a Christian and you are an atheist. Have I ever insulted you

Let's see.

Why do you call yourself freethinker

Because I fit the description very well. Don;t insult me by claiming otherwise. Esp since YOU admit that you would not even consider changing your mind.

you seem like a person trapped in your own believes

Again, you attack me and accuse me of doing what YOU do.

it impossible to deny the existence of a creator.

Ya I know us stupid Atheists just aren;t smart enough to see this convoluted connection.

try to be a bit more open minded

Enough so my brain falls out? So I also will never change my stance on anything?

 

You miss an important difference in POV. I find a T-shirt that says "Jesus loves you" to be offensive. It is an insult to me. It is used as such by Christians in discussions all the time "Well Jesus still loves you!" as if we are just too stupid to appreciate getting his blood all over us! You probably never imagined that diversity would include not pushing your Jesus nonsense on people like you have been doing here as if it has some crediblity to it.

 

You, on the other hand attack and step on everyone who doesn't share your views.

What "I do" is try to get people to stick to the FAQ of the site. PROOF, not just unsupported assertions. FACTS. REASON. LOGIC. EVIDENCE. Do any of these catch your eye? We'd love to have you join us in using them here. Meanwhile I will take posts that do not use this approach and show where and why they do not. If you find that insulting, perhaps you need to figure out why your posts get dissected the way they do.

 

I think you will find the reason why Irish, a person with a similar philosophy to yours, sticks around is because she understands the STYLE of our posts. She has been exposed to the "Rational" mind quite a bit and can better tell the intent behind aggressive responses.

 

Though we still can't get her to show any proofs! :-)

 

Will we fair any better with you? Can you SHOW us anything?

[Freethinker]

Originally posted by: galaxyDon't you think that we should respect and accept each other as human beings regardless of our religious or cultural, or whatever differences?

Ever heard of NAMBLA?

 

North American Man/Boy Love Association

 

http://216.220.97.17/welcome.htm

 

Now tell me how much you respect their "differences".

 

17 people hijack planes and kill thousands of people in the US on 9/11. It was intentional and driven by their religious, god fearing mindset. They were seeking eternal salvation from the same god you do, the god of Abraham.

 

Now tell me how much you respect their "differences".

 

Children die every year because their parents trusted a man of god instead of a Doctor.

 

Now tell me how much you respect their "differences".

 

girls were stopped from exiting a burning building because they didn;t have their manditory religious garb on. Over a dozen were burned alive because of it.

 

Now tell me how much you respect their "differences".

 

Can you agree with me on that?

can you?

You claim to be against the republicans and their ideals ... and yet you use every opportunity you get to kick Christians out of your "SCIENCE SITE"...

I don't see the contradiction. I have always used FACTUAL SUPPORT for my rants against what is happening in the US and the world because of if. There is always the equal opportunity for anyone to provide info to the contrary. If i can show where they are wrong, then THEY ARE WRONG. If they show where I am wrong, then *I* am wrong.

 

and *I* have NEVER kicked anyone out and it is NOT MY site. It is Tormod's. I'm just here to cause trouble and torment him! But I DO attack Christians. Especially those that have no desire to have an open honest discussion. Those that are so convinced that they have THE PERFECT KNOWLEDGE and nothing anyone can ever say can prove them wrong. They will NEVER change their mind! It is obvious there is no use to try an open honest discussion with someone that doesn't want one, so why not force them to prove their claims instead?

[Freethinker]

Originally posted by: galaxy

Now, "Gifted" according to the Meriam Webster Dictionary

 

Pronunciation: 'gif-t&d

Function: adjective

 

2 : revealing a special gift

 

...yet in my eyes no one is not better than the other.

I will assume you meant

...yet in my eyes no one is () better than the other.

Which means you disagree with the defintion YOU provided!

In case you are still confused, I will make it a little simpler

Thanks we all know how slow I am. Glad you don't feel better than me, or you'd try to

make it a little simpler

for me.

she would spin, and jump on her little toes. I took ballet as a child for a couple of years and I was never able to do what this child did without any training.

Then at Ballet she WAS BETTER THAN YOU. Is this confusing?

help you become a less angry person.

Again, you are very selfrighteous. Typically Christian. Oh it is great that you spent so much time with "gifted children". Not that we would possibly know other then all the bragging you just did about it. And I obviously, because I don't accept myths and superstitions, must be an angry person. Now my brag. Forget that I am a single father of four that each one of them has rejected their mother and lives with me. That 3 of my daughter's friends call me "papa" and state I am their 2nd father. That I have been in a very loving relationship for years. It's obvious because I use REASON as guidance for my lifes decisions, I must be an angry person. and YOU are the person that KNOWS this and can inform me of it! Thanks.

 

Now, perhaps we can move back to the discussion? And perhaps you can agree to give honest and open examination of things posted rather than predetermining that you are right no matter what? And perhaps you can provide facts to support things you want to assert? Facts don't care which side of the brain posts them.

[Uncle Martin]

Galaxy,

Did I miss your reply? I am still curious, did you create your user icon/avitar? If so, please tell me more about it. If not, what type of art do you do?

 

Since I need to stay on topic and set the example; are you "the creator" of your avitar?

[galaxy]

I do not have time to reply to each of your remarks. I will try to narrow down my response as much as I can. You are a single parent, that's great...really, I mean woman have been doing it for years and it is nice to see a man that also does it. I know there are many out there, but we don't hear from them as much. I honestly think that's great, really.

Now, It is so funny how you cut my sentences and you pick and choose the comments that are more convenient for you to get your point across. You think I feel self-righteous because I said I worked with handicapped children???? Your mind is definitely twisted. I guess you forgot when I stated that I do not feel superior to anybody because I am a Christian, and that I am far away from perfect... Did you read that part? Well, in case you didn't I will repeat it. I am not perfect, I am a human being just like you and our differences (which are many) does not make me or you a better person. Can you agree with me on that?

Now the examples you provided me with were all from religious extremists. I am totally against them. In the old testament there is a verse that says "an eye for an eye" ... now if a Jewish or a Christian person kills out of revenge and uses this verse as his defense, in my eyes he is still guilty, and he should pay for the consequences of his actions. Then again, I cannot assume everyone who believes in the old testament is capable of killing. We all, or at least most of us know the difference between what is right and what is wrong, and we have a free will to make our own decisions and choose our own paths. Now, no matter what religion or culture we come from, we can all agree that killing is wrong. You mentioned 9/11 in one of your examples, my best friend worked for Morgan Stanley and was is the second tower when the terrorist attacked. It impacted me very personally. I went to ground cero the next day and believe me, the thought still hunts me. The hijackers killed many innocent people, and hide behind their religion to justify this insane act. They were guilty of killing innocent lives, that's correct, however, I can't assume all Muslims share their believes, and I can't say all Muslims are assassins. This would make me as ignorant as those hijackers who thought that all American were evil. Or as Hitler who thought the world would be a better place without the Jews...Or me stating that most people who are atheist lack morals and should be separated from me... Come on now, we live in the year 2004, I do believe we should be able to SOCIALLY EVOLVE, and accept each others differences as long as they're not hurting others. I honestly can't see how you claim to be a Democrat, if your philosophy is that we should all live in a religious free country. I truly can't. Then again, that's you and I learned to accept you for who you are.

[Freethinker]

Originally posted by: galaxy

Now, It is so funny how you cut my sentences and you pick and choose the comments that are more convenient for you to get your point across.

I respond to most posts in a "linear" fashion. Section by section. e.g. I choose not to continue the discussion about my being a single father as it is irrelevant to the topic here. That brought me to this sentence. As your entire post is available just before my response, there is no reason to duplicate your entire post, just enough to allow the context to be communicated properly. If someone wants to read more details, they can go back to your original post.

 

If I skip a part you felt was more important, that you wanted a reply to, let me know.

You think I feel self-righteous because I said I worked with handicapped children???? Your mind is definitely twisted.

A major part of that post was nothing but details about the kids you have so magnanimously given your self to. Even if any one of the examples had been of value in proving your point (which I showed to not be the case) the only value to posting the entire list would be to try to enhance your standing.

 

Besides which, the "selfrighteous" comment was connected to your claim to have significant phsychological insights to me. Your claim that I am an "angry person".

I guess you forgot when I stated that I do not feel superior to anybody because I am a Christian,

Yada Yada.... Ya we hear that all the time from Christians. This self deprecation while proclaiming how godly they are!

 

Matthew 23:5-6 "Everything they do is done for men to see: They make their phylacteries wide and the tassels on their garments long; they love the place of honor at banquets and the most important seats in the synagogues;

 

You CLAIM to not be superior, while claiming to have the PERFECT KNOWLEDGE about a god. That we are all the same, except that YOU UNIQUELY are special to your god as YOU UNIQUELY KNOW EXACTLY what it takes to reach "eternal salvation". No matter how much your PERSONAL beliefs contradict other Christians that make the same claim using different parameters.

and that I am far away from perfect... Did you read that part?

Yes, in the same post in which you kept bragging about how wonderful and correct you are.

[Freethinker]

Originally posted by: galaxy

Now the examples you provided me with were all from religious extremists. I am totally against them.

so when you earlier posted

Originally posted by: galaxy

Don't you think that we should respect and accept each other as human beings regardless of our religious or cultural, or whatever differences? Can you agree with me on that?

you were lying?

 

Or perhaps you just like posting mindless platitudes regardless of their value?

 

Or are you just a hypocrit? Changing your stance at any whim?

 

Or maybe you just don't think things through before claiming things? It sounded so cutely warm and fuzzy to claim you "accept each other as human beings regardless of our religious or cultural, or whatever differences", so you pretend to embrace it? Until someone forces your eyes open and makes you fit your platitudes into reality?

 

This is one of the many problems with a religious mindset. No actually detailed evaluation of the claimed tenets. As long as it gives you warm fuzzies you'll parrot it. Screw reality!

[Freethinker]

Originally posted by: Freethinker

Originally posted by: galaxy

In the old testament there is a verse that says "an eye for an eye" ... now if a Jewish or a Christian person kills out of revenge and uses this verse as his defense, in my eyes he is still guilty,...We all, or at least most of us know the difference between what is right and what is wrong, and we have a free will to make our own decisions and choose our own paths.

 

Matthew 5:17-19 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

 

Once more we find that the Christian is the one that is not familiar with what their book commands of them. Your mythical Jesus of the bible very specifically stated in it that EVERY OT law, no matter how small ("one jot or one tittle") HAS to be taught and followed.

 

But YOU know better than the bible does I guess?

[Freethinker]

Originally posted by: galaxy

Now, no matter what religion or culture we come from, we can all agree that killing is wrong.

 

Actually, not killing is a SECULAR moral. Contrary to the single command to not kill in the bible, it is filled more with reasons and specific instructions TO kill. This is common in all 3 of the Abrahamic god religions. Here is just a very small sampling of the bible telling it's followers to kill.

 

Exodus 32:27 And he said unto them, Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Put every man his sword by his side, and go in and out from gate to gate throughout the camp, and slay every man his brother, and every man his companion, and every man his neighbour.

 

Numbers 25:5 And Moses said unto the judges of Israel, Slay ye every one his men that were joined unto Baalpeor.

 

1 Samuel 15:3 Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ***.

 

Ezekiel 9:5-7 And to the others he said in mine hearing, Go ye after him through the city, and smite: let not your eye spare, neither have ye pity: Slay utterly old and young, both maids, and little children, and women: but come not near any man upon whom is the mark; and begin at my sanctuary. Then they began at the ancient men which were before the house. And he said unto them, Defile the house, and fill the courts with the slain: go ye forth. And they went forth, and slew in the city.

 

Luke 19:27 But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.

 

So if WE agree that killing is wrong, it is because of SECULAR HUMANIST, not CHRISTIAN morals.

Come on now, we live in the year 2004, I do believe we should be able to SOCIALLY EVOLVE,

Then quit claiming to follow a 1600 year old book that states otherwise.

I honestly can't see how you claim to be a Democrat, if your philosophy is that we should all live in a religious free country. I truly can't. Then again, that's you and I learned to accept you for who you are.

Because as a DEMOCRAT I do not want to FORCE it on others. I can only hope that education will catch up and truth will will out. While REPUBLICANS want to use the power of LAW to FORCE their narrowminded prejudicial religious beliefs on everyone. Yes it is obvious that the world would be better off without religion. And yes I would like to live in a country where I am free from it, from being forced to follow and finacially support it. But contrary to the US Constitution, that is NOT the case in the US currently. But I do not see the correct approach as FORCING others to agree by passing laws like the Religious Right. I see the correct approach as education. Something the Republicans are anxious to defund, for that reason.

[galaxy]

I never said I was wonderfully correct. Forgive me if I keept providing details about the children I worked ith, I was actually remembering them wile I wrote and I got carried away. I forgot this is a "SCIENCE" site and we cannot do that. I am not perfect, but if you view me as someone who feels she is only because I shared a personal experience with you, then that is your problem, not mine. You're reality might not be my reality... We have the right to choose our own paths in life. I respect you as a human being even do you are an atheist, I am not trying to convert you.... you on the other hand keep telling me to"think logically"... You are so confused. DO think is correct for you to try to change my religion? I never tryed to change your believes, why can't you give me the same respect?

And I do believe in going to the world to preach the gospel, but if you impose your religion in people who is just aren't interested, all they're going to do is rebel against it... No, no one should FORCE anything on anybody. Telling someone who never heard of Jesus, that He died for his sins is not FORCING them to believe. I accept everyone as they are, although I might not agree with them. I still believe no person should impose their views on another, I do not think is right for an atheist to FORCE me to become one, and I do not think is right for a Christian to FORCE an atheist to become a believer. I just wish you could at least agree with me that everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but I see now that will never happen.That's it for now folks, when I have time I will provide more detailed responses.

[galaxy]

Originally posted by: Freethinker

 

 

 

 

Yes it is obvious that the world would be better off without religion. And yes I would like to live in a country where I am free from it

[galaxy]

Originally posted by: Freethinker

 

 

 

 

Yes it is obvious that the world would be better off without religion. And yes I would like to live in a country where I am free from it

[galaxy]

I do not know what happened on the top posts... Well you claimed the world would be a better place without religion and I just wanted to advice you to move to Cuba

[wisdumn]

hey everyone, sorry i haven't been here lately but i recently received a nice injury while riding my bike, sprained arm, roadrash, you get the point. anyway hope all is well with everyone. so i've been reading a good bit of the posts here and one thing that i think we have deferred from is the nature of the topic which is entitled "The Creator" instead i see nothing but pretty much arguing Bible doctrine as of late. now while i do believe the Bible, let's get back to "The Creator". i don't know what i was thinking, of course the big bang has to be the correct "THEORY" i mean just look at the intelligence that the big bang posessed, it knew how to take a single atom or amoeba and form all of life from it, different colors of flowers,different shaped and textured trees,different climates where only certain animals and plant life can exist, it posessed the intelligence to create humans of different races, shape, and size. it posessed the intelligence to develop a food chain as to reduce overpopulation such as the termite to eat the wood of trees, the woodpecker to eat the termite,larger birds of prey to eat the woodpecker. the big bang posessed the intelligence to make mountains,valleys,oceans and get this even seasons, yes! weather changes to end one cycle and begin a new one. and let's not forget the stars and other planets in our solar system, speaking of other planets, how about that big bang's intelligence for making rings around saturn and making mars red instead of blue and then it's intelligence to align the planets to revolve a certain way and stay in order. i mean no other big explosion has had the intelligence to do this, to create life that is, the oklahoma city bombing only destroyed and left chaos, the 9/11 attacks which certainly made some pretty big explosions tore the twin towers down but certainly did not rebuild them or re-issue life to the people it killed so yes! the big bang must have posessed vast knowledge to be the only explosion that created and didn't destroy. but if the big bang is the correct "THEORY", then how could there be a big bang without there being a BIG BANGER? sorry that i asked one question at the very end-but if you need more evidence than what i have written above, well sorry but i just don't need to make formulatic equations to figure out common sense like that there must have been a Creator.the universe and how it all operates is PLENTY of evidence for my FEEBLE MIND to handle.

[IrishEyes]

Oh boy, wisdumm. This should be fun. i'm just going to sit back and enjoy the ride. I can hardly wait to see where your post takes us.....