What's better than punishment?

[nkt]

The problem with speeding up the time between crime and punishment is that it would lead to less extensive and thorough investigations. Even when it is obvious that someone has commited a crime, it is still important to grant the suspect the full process of the law. Not that such couldnt be streamlined, but I doubt that very great time savings are possible in a system that presumes innocence, and I doubt many people would favour adopting a system that presumes guilt. ;)

I wouldn't worry about that, the UK police and criminal justice service (yes, that really is the name!) are quite happy to drag things out for months beyond where they should, and then change everything a few hours before you are due in court, to ensure the odds are stacked firmly in favour of the system.

 

Remember, they know the system, and play it every day, and in fact they get to re-write the bits that annoy them, like only being able to prosecute once for a crime (double jeopardy), right to silence, etc. both of which have been removed. Add in a "terror" offence like shouting at a politician, and you don't even have the right to be arrested, merely "detained" indefinately, sans rights, of course.

 

To keep stacking the deck further in favour of the Crown is stupid, and the rapid creation of new offences (like failure to have an ID card) removes faith in the system. Being dragged through it removes *all* faith in it.

 

The answer is fairly clear, imo. Restore the right to defend yourself and your property, and leave the police to sort out right and wrong after the fact. Even in the police state of the future crimes will still occur - in fact, if they aren't more laws will be passed - and so the power remains with the state. Things need to go back the other way, such that people are permitted (in the way they used to be obilged by law) to defence themselves and others from criminal assault. This would reduce the time form offending to punishment to below the police response time in at least some cases. This would be a good thing.

 

A few minor tweaks in the law would allow this process to begin. But that would take power from the state and return it to the people, and this is why it is utterly beyond even simple dicussion, despite well over 50% of the UK population wanting it.

[Panjandrum]

Fear of the state and its apparatus is a sign that it has lost its mandate to govern a population. The Justice system is a tool of the state, but if the state is not the manifest will of the people it becomes a tool of oppression. However, this discussion is off topic, and we should restrict ourselves to the matter of crime and punishment, and not wider issues of legitimacy.

[InfiniteNow]

The problem with speeding up the time between crime and punishment is that...

Please note that my point was the punishment would need to happen immediately for the association to be strong enough for it to be effective. Not on the order of weeks and days, but even minutes after the crime is too long.

 

Do the crime... get zapped immediately. Most punishment more than about 5 seconds out loses effectiveness logrithmically with each passing moment.

[Panjandrum]

Too bad. Its depressing that people are too dumb to associate punishment with wrongdoing unless one follows the other almost immediately.

[InfiniteNow]

Too bad. Its depressing that people are too dumb to associate punishment with wrongdoing unless one follows the other almost immediately.

It's not really a matter of intelligence, or just humans... Let's say you ingest a pizza, but there was bacteria on it you didn't know about. Then, about one week later, you get horrendously ill and cannot stop vomitting. You're not too likely to associate the illness with the pizza. It has nothing to do with your intelligence. The association is just too weak. Punishment is very similar (in this regard).

[Panjandrum]

But if I was told by my doctor that my illness was caused by the pizza, I like to think it would at least give me pause for thought before I bought one from the same pizzaria. Similarly, getting a speeding ticket makes me drive a little more carefully, at least for a while.

[InfiniteNow]

Similarly, getting a speeding ticket makes me drive a little more carefully, at least for a while.

And what do you do then? You watch out for cops... you buy a radar detector... you go online to see where the speed traps will be that day... But do you stop speeding forever because you were punished? Nope... You were never intrinsically motivated not to speed. You approached in terms of "not getting caught," as opposed to "I shouldn't speed."

[Panjandrum]

True. However, I am incaple of learning from my mistakes. I had thought normal people had this capacity / weakness?

[Kayra]

The only thing better then punishment is the lack of a requirement for punishment.

 

BigDog, you have kids, that much is obvious as your wisdom regarding them is rock solid and, I would bet, hard won as well.

 

If this thread is regarding how to raise children, all we have to do is review his posts.

 

If this is about the criminal element in our society, then we are dealing with a different issue entirely. We as individuals have little influence over a criminal. their personality and traits are set, and we are likely to have little chance to effect change.

 

To that end, I believe that the criminal is minimally affected by the severity of the punishment. Every criminal has to believe he will get away with what he is doing, or he would not do it. It is as simple as that. For that reason, the likelihood of a crime being committed is directly related to the chance of getting caught, and has only a minimal relationship to what happens when they are.

 

The solution? Most are not going to like this.

Ubiquitous video surveillance. Big brother with a vengeance. The only place that VS should not be allowed is on private property.

 

City managers are finding out in a hurry that if VS in put in place, crime practically disappears in that area.

 

The public should not be allowed direct access to the video streams. The people monitoring the cameras should be in a public building, in a glass room. The public should be able to see what they are watching at all times.

This should be implemented on a case by case basis in areas that require the system most. Each implementation would easily pay for itself simply by the reduced crime rate .

 

Public scrutiny of all of our actions outside of our home though could be a darned hard thing to get used to, but actually get end up being a comfort for most of us.

 

For me, I would accept it in an eye blink if it meant my kids could safely walk from my house to the gas station to get a slurpy.